how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[SkyWriting]

Preached there is a different word from preached for salvation in other places. It simply means to proclaim or declare what has been done. There is no evangelizing in hell. Once to die then the judgement.

I wasn't there.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Have you ever found yourself breaking the speed limit in ignorance (accidentally)? Of course you have. And what went through your mind? Even sins of ignorance require blood atonement (Leviticus chapters 4 and 5) and are inseparable from godly fear.

When I was ignorant of the sin God winks in those times but as soon as it's revealed to me through the Spirit, I repent of it, receive forgiveness and in that moment, am as white as snow. When God forgives, there is no trace of record against your name... that's Sanctification babee.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hi,

Your example presupposes that all individuals that die in their sins believe in the existence of a "wonderful eternity to come." I have already thoroughly refuted your claim in another post.

Which post was that please? for reference

I have demonstrated elsewhere, being rendered non-existent cannot possibly be a form of punishment.

Again a post number would be helpful when referring to previous said demonstrations.

To the point of annihilationism not being possible, maybe you could give an explanation of this verse...

Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

It has already been Scripturally and logically demonstrated that the existence of an eternal Hell is fully compatible with a loving God.

So are you in the " a Loving and Just God allows the torture of all, even babies" camp or are you in the "a Loving and Just God only allows torturing His creation because they did not choose Him" camp?... that last point seems a tad egotistical to me but if that's what your God does. who am I to judge?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This is a really good thread. Good points and good dialogue.
Can I ask a non-biblical, emotional feely-good question? For those who really "know" God....does the God you worship use violence to get what He wants? Is He obligated to conform to His own terms of justice? Would He forsake and never look back at you?
Would He maintain hell's heat eternally so the torture doesn't ease up?

....or not? What is His true nature and character to you? This question is what I see might be all we are left with after exhausting every verse and word translation.

Amen!... my God is a God of Love and Compassion and seeks all to come to Him in obedience. My God does not compel me through fear the eternal punishment to love Him... I love Him because He first Loved me. Not spending eternity with my Creator is something to gnash my teeth over.

 

[AACJ]

When I was ignorant of the sin God winks in those times but as soon as it's revealed to me through the Spirit, I repent of it, receive forgiveness and in that moment, am as white as snow. When God forgives, there is no trace of record against your name... that's Sanctification babee.

LOL. And what is your condition between awareness of such sin and your act of confession? If your sin is not forgiven until your act of confession, then is such sin imputed to you until such confession? There's something for you to think about.

I know the answer; but do you?

 

[AACJ]

Which post was that please? for reference



Again a post number would be helpful when referring to previous said demonstrations.

To the point of annihilationism not being possible, maybe you could give an explanation of this verse...

Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.


So are you in the " a Loving and Just God allows the torture of all, even babies" camp or are you in the "a Loving and Just God only allows torturing His creation because they did not choose Him" camp?... that last point seems a tad egotistical to me but if that's what your God does. who am I to judge?

Learn to search forum posts.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

LOL. And what is your condition between awareness of such sin and your act of confession? If your sin is not forgiven until your act of confession, then is such sin imputed to you until such confession? There's something for you to think about.

I know the answer; but do you?

If I am rebellious and delay in my repentance after the Spirit makes me aware, then that stain is upon my record until I do. Just as temptation is not sin, neither is timely repented sin put to account. In case you forgot, we serve a merciful God full of Compassion.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Learn to search forum posts.

Didn't think so....

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I don't see where that verse is about the church. It is just brothers in general.

yes, Christian "brothers" who can only mean saved people, who are part of the saved Church!

 

[razzelflabben]

This is a really good thread. Good points and good dialogue.
Can I ask a non-biblical, emotional feely-good question? For those who really "know" God....does the God you worship use violence to get what He wants? Is He obligated to conform to His own terms of justice? Would He forsake and never look back at you except to maintain hell's heat eternally so the torture doesn't ease up?

....or not? What is His true nature and character to you? This question is what I see might be all we are left with after exhausting every verse and word translation trying to figure this out.

Just a thought.

some of these questions don't seem to be directed at what I said about hell but as to the nature of God...God is Love and therefore goes to great lengths to keep man out of hell which remember is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it. He is just...He is Love...He is consistent...the violence that we see in the OT "God" is because (according to the same scripture) of a different perspective. IOW's God's perspective is eternal life and death whereas ours is fleshly existence. This can cause problems with understanding both the violence of the OT and the war that believers are battling today.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus said he who doesn't believe is condemned already. Jesus is the one who spoke of wailing and gnashing of teeth and a fire that shall never be quenched.

You are the one denying His words and twisting it and judging God as unjust to send any to eternal everlasting forever and ever fire.

I do not accept universalism but I would point out that for Jesus to speak of wailing and gnashing and an unquenchable fire does not necessarily indicate eternal torment. To say that the fire is unquenchable is not the same thing as saying that the fuel in the fire - the lost - is to burn forever. A fire can be unquenchable even as it fully consumes its fuel.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do not accept universalism but I would point out that for Jesus to speak of wailing and gnashing and an unquenchable fire does not necessarily indicate eternal torment. To say that the fire is unquenchable is not the same thing as saying that the fuel in the fire - the lost - is to burn forever. A fire can be unquenchable even as it fully consumes its fuel.

If they are given a body that cannot be ultimately destroyed it would be a unquenchable fire forever and ever.

 

[Der Alte]

I do not accept universalism but I would point out that for Jesus to speak of wailing and gnashing and an unquenchable fire does not necessarily indicate eternal torment. To say that the fire is unquenchable is not the same thing as saying that the fuel in the fire - the lost - is to burn forever. A fire can be unquenchable even as it fully consumes its fuel.

Unfortunately the word of God does not say "the fire is not quenched [until the fuel is consumed]" If that is what God meant that is what He would have said.

 

[LoveofTruth]

One word _ "forvever" is translated from aion, which means for generation(s), age(s), epoch, lifetime(s). "Everlasting" then can be translated age-lasting or age-during. "Eternity", "eternal", should only be used to describe God, His domain, His Word and our salvation. Everything else was create and according to the Bible, all former things will pass away (referring to the first earth and first heaven). It also says that Death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. Destroyed means to put an end to. To say Hell is an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing is contradictive. We know what destroy means, we know what fire means _ but those words have been changed to mean something symbolic, not what we understand them to mean. So Hell becomes a spiritual place not physical, fire becomes something else since the damned are in darkness. The mystery gets more confused when you alter it to mean something abstract. If you choose to accept eternal damnation and you are comfortable with your family or friends suffering in there forever (with your meaning of it), while you enjoy love and peace in heaven, you have at it!
Merry Christmas

Matthew 19:16
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

The word 'aionios'.Means perpetual, forever. I ask is "eternal life going to end? The answer is no.

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

same word in both places used 'aionios'. Just as there is everlasting life eternal for believers so there is everlasting punishment for unbelievers. The contrary is true or else eternal life is temporary. But we know that Jesus Christ is eternal life (1 John 1:2 "and shew unto you that eternal life, ['aionios life] which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;") and he is never ending he is forever. And in Him is this life and the life is the light of men.

Mark 3:29
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. This shows that there will be NO forgiveness ever for such who do this sin. To say there will be forgiveness for these and one day they shall come to God as some universalist do contradicts scripture.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. Jesus also says they shall "never" perish this shows how long eternal life is for. It shall never end.

John 17:3
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. God is life eternal.

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

the word for eternal here is 'aidios' meaning ever enduring and it relates to Gods power and character. Can any say God is temporary? or His power temporary or only to a certain age? No

2 Corinthians 5:1
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. Showing the contrary to a house that dissolves to an eternal house that will never dissolve. Does the building made of God end? or is it only for an age? These verses i post show the error of the universalist as clearly as we read the scripture. Many try to escape the text by a interpretation of a Greek word.

1 Timothy 1:17
"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

again the word 'aion' is used for eternal. Is God himself only for an age? The word 'immortal is also used, meaning 'undecayimng (in essence or continuance). This shows that God never ends or corrupts or decays etc. This same word is used for believers as well. The words for ever and ever show a never ending age. It is an expression to show the unending aspect of the age to age. But sometimes the word 'ion" is used for Gods never ending power only once as "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."( Matthew 6:13). But as to the word 'aphthartos', for 'immortal' as used for Gods character it is also used for believers life and inheritance as we see here,

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."(1 Cor 15;52)

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,"(1 Peter 1:4)

The word 'aphthartos', for 'immortal' is also used, meaning 'undecayimng (in essence or continuance). There are different ways to describe the same state and being and other aspects of this eternal immortal, everlasting never ending life and eternal damnation etc.

Hebrews 9:14
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. This is connected to the Spirit of God. Is God's Spirit only for an age? No for ever and ever and He has always been.

1 John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Just as we saw that this "eternal life ('aionios' life) is Jesus Christ himself. and all believers have Jesus Christ in them and so they all have eternal life or 'aionios' life. So if a person departs from the living God and is a murderer in his heart or actions then he does not have that "eternal life" which is Jesus Christ abiding ( remaining or continuing) in him any more. And yes a believer can lose eternal life if they abide not in Christ.

1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. This eternal life is God. And this eternal life is in all believers (Hebrews 13:20,21, 2 Cor 13:5 John 15:1-8 etc). Just as God's existence is eternal, perpetual and never ending so is eternal life. The opposite is also true that eternal punishment , damnation is equally as long as those in eternal life as we already saw.

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Everlasting and eternal here are the same word 'aionios'. This is just a small study on this for now. Much more can be shown. Eternal and everlasting are used of the "everlasting fire "Matthew 18:8 same word "'aionios', meaning perpetual. And in 2 Thess. 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction", Matthew 25:41, "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"etc etc etc etc

 

[mkgal1]

To say that the fire is unquenchable is not the same thing as saying that the fuel in the fire - the lost - is to burn forever. A fire can be unquenchable even as it fully consumes its fuel.

Right. And if one thinks of the fire being "God's glory" and "His love" ....and considering that's His nature ....and He is eternal....wouldn't it just make sense that His fire is unquenchable (His love/glory won't go out....won't die out...won't diminish)?
​

"For our God is a consuming fire."~Hebrews 12:29​

 

[LoveofTruth]

Right. And if one thinks of the fire being "God's glory" and "His love" ....and considering that's His nature ....and He is eternal....wouldn't it just make sense that His fire is unquenchable (His love/glory won't go out....won't die out...won't diminish)?
​

"For our God is a consuming fire."~Hebrews 12:29​

but the fire is defined

Matthew 5:22
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



This hell fire is a dangerous thing and they are warned against it.

 

[mkgal1]

This hell fire is a dangerous thing and they are warned against it.

It's dangerous for sin (which is beneficial for PEOPLE). God's enemy is sin/evil....not His creation (in my belief, anyway).

 

[mkgal1]

I believe that part of the "flaming lake of fire" concept derives from another distortion of what I think the Biblical narrative really tells us. And I offer this from NT Wright in this regard:

Of course, there have been crude and unbiblical versions of the doctrine of atonement, and many have rightly reacted against the idea of a vengeful God determined to punish someone and being satisfied by taking it out on his own son. But do not mistake the caricature for the biblical doctrine. Paul says, in his most central and careful statement, not that God punished Jesus, but that God ‘condemned sin in the flesh’ of Jesus (Romans 8.3).

QFE

I love this quote (and how it helps explain this point):

“What Has Not Been Assumed Has Not Been Healed”~St Gregory Nazianzen