Millennial Considerations

[LastSeven]

Let's put this to a test. Is there a chance you might ever convert to Premil? If you are a former Premil, I guess the question would be---Is there a chance you might ever convert back to Premil? Remember, you said to never say never. So I'm assuming that should include you as well.

Clever. I used to be premil, yes. I guess I should take my own advice and never say never, but having lived on that side of the fence I've already done the comparison and seen the light, so it wouldn't make sense for me to go back to something that makes no sense. Premils haven't done the conversion yet. That's the difference.

 

[DavidPT]

Whoa. Did you just add words to the prophecy? Yes you did.

If I used Revelation 20 to interpret that passage, how exactly would that be adding words to that prophecy? I was only illustrating my interpretation of that prophecy based on Revelation 20.

 

[LastSeven]

Not really the subject I had in mind from what I read. But I do understand how you meant spiritual resurrection, though I always interpreted that idea to mean we who believe on Jesus are linked to His death and resurrection.

That's exactly it. That's the first resurrection. You and I have already experienced it.

Rev.20 is speaking of a literal resurrection though, so based on what you said before I assume you believe that resurrection means a physical 'flesh body' resurrection?

No, I did not mean a flesh body. Paul clearly states we will be raised in spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15). Not to be confused with the first resurrection which is "spiritual" in the sense that the body is irrelevant. Paul was speaking of the second resurrection, where the physical body becomes a spiritual body.

That point I disagree with because the type body Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus taught the resurrection is, i.e., a "spiritual body", and one "as the angels in heaven" (1 Cor.15; Mark 12:25).

Paul and Jesus both spoke of the second resurrection, where death is swallowed up in victory and all (both the wicked and the righteous) who are in their graves will come out and be transformed into spiritual bodies.

 

[DavidPT]

John 5:28 refers to the second resurrection. The first resurrection is spiritual. That explains it.

That doesn't explain it though. We're told that only the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years are finished. In order for the rest of the dead to live again, that obviously means some of the dead have already lived again prior to when they will. I wonder who those might be? How about the dead mentioned in Revelation 20:4, for one?

 

[LastSeven]

If I used Revelation 20 to interpret that passage, how exactly would that be adding words to that prophecy? I was only illustrating my interpretation of that prophecy based on Revelation 20.

o.k. but even if that's your interpretation, don't you think your own interpretation should match what it actually says? I mean, if you insert words for whatever reason, then you restrict yourself from seeing other possible meanings.

It's just like people adding the words "on earth" to "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". It doesn't say "on earth", but if you add those words in then you preclude the possibility of a spiritual reign. And shouldn't our minds be open to receive whatever meaning there might be?

 

[Davy]

That's exactly it. That's the first resurrection. You and I have already experienced it.

No, I did not mean a flesh body. Paul clearly states we will be raised in spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15). Not to be confused with the first resurrection which is "spiritual" in the sense that the body is irrelevant. Paul was speaking of the second resurrection, where the physical body becomes a spiritual body.

Paul and Jesus both spoke of the second resurrection, where death is swallowed up in victory and all (both the wicked and the righteous) who are in their graves will come out and be transformed into spiritual bodies.

I agree that all... the just and the unjust will have the spiritual body in the resurrection, but the "resurrection of life" of John 5 I understand to be the "first resurrection" of Rev.20, and not a second resurrection. Sounds like you're making that Rev.20 "first resurrection" into a second type.

 

[LastSeven]

That doesn't explain it though. We're told that only the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years are finished.

No, no. It doesn't say that. See, this is where you have to be careful. We're not told that "only the rest of the dead live again". We're told that "the rest of the dead live again". You can't insert that word "only" because that changes the meaning.

The way it's written allows for the second resurrection to include both the wicked and the righteous. The way you say it, it sounds like the second resurrection is only for the wicked. You have to read it the way it's written and not change the meaning with subtle little words.

 

[LastSeven]

I agree that all... the just and the unjust will have the spiritual body in the resurrection, but the "resurrection of life" of John 5 I understand to be the "first resurrection" of Rev.20, and not a second resurrection. Sounds like you're making that Rev.20 "first resurrection" into a second type.

John 5:29 is not speaking of two separate resurrections, although the KJV kind of makes it sound that way. I prefer the NIV version.

29 and come out – those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

That is the second resurrection. One resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[Davy]

No, no. It doesn't say that. See, this is where you have to be careful. We're not told that "only the rest of the dead live again". We're told that "the rest of the dead live again". You can't insert that word "only" because that changes the meaning.

The way it's written allows for the second resurrection to include both the wicked and the righteous. The way you say it, it sounds like the second resurrection is only for the wicked. You have to read it the way it's written and not change the meaning with subtle little words.

More confusing that is.

The "first resurrection" of Rev.20 is about Christ's elect Church that will reign with Him, and Rev.5 does... say they will reign "on the earth". Even the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20 are shown to be on earth.

So it sounds like you're confusing the requirements of flesh with a spiritual body that our Lord and Apostle Paul taught. The "spiritual body" which the resurrection is can live upon this earth just like we today do. The example the two angels God sent to Lot in Genesis 19 shows this as they had the image of man and they were able to eat man's food.

I believe there will be a second resurrection also, but... another like the "first resurrection", not for the wicked but for those during the "thousand years" that will come to Christ Jesus and be saved at the end of the thousand years. That's how I understand about the Rev.20:5 dead that lived not again until the thousand years were over. The wicked who will still refuse Jesus will not 'live again' but into the "lake of fire".

So the idea of Life in that future time when the concept of flesh death ended at Christ's coming, is Eternal Life through Christ Jesus only. If you are subject to Life in that time, then you belong to Christ. If you are subject to the "second death", then you reject Christ, even in a resurrection body.

So because there is a "resurrection of damnation" also, it means they are raised to the "spiritual body" too, but something they have is still 'mortal' and subject to the "second death". I believe that to be the soul, and what Paul meant with "this mortal must put on immortality". It involves belief on Jesus Christ and thus experiencing the spiritual regeneration of the soul.

Therefore also, the "spiritual body" is just an image body type for the heavenly dimension. It does not mean automatic Salvation since the wicked of the "resurrection of damnation" also will have it. For this earthly dimension our flesh body image is it, but for the heavenly, the spiritual body, or also what Paul called "the image of the heavenly", is it.

 

[Davy]

John 5:29 is not speaking of two separate resurrections, although the KJV kind of makes it sound that way. I prefer the NIV version.

29 and come out – those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

That is the second resurrection. One resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked.

I only see a one time resurrection of both the just and unjust in that John 5:28-29 section from our Lord Jesus. It will occur on the day of His return, at the same time as Paul's "last trump".

 

[Truth7t7]

Folks just aren't understanding the power of God.

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'
KJV

That is where Apostle Paul was pulling from when teaching about 'death swallowed up in victory'. Who all is that being applied to here in Isaiah 25? It applies to ALL... nations, ALL people on that event of the "last trump".

It has long... been assumed by men's traditions that Apostle Paul was talking about the Church only... in that change at the "twinkling of an eye" on the "last trump". Not so, as here in Isaiah 25 is where he was pulling from about death being swallowed up.

As our Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29, all the dead in the graves will hear His voice in that specific hour (at the "last trump") and come forth, both the just and the unjust. Then Rev.5 teaches that Christ's elect will then reign "on the earth", which has to mean in the resurrection type body, i.e., the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

At that point in time on that 'day', death in the flesh will be no more. The only type of death possible after that point will be the "second death" of Rev.20.

The last trump will see the resurrection and glorified eternal body.

the righteous will reign on earth?

however it will be the eternal Newheaven, Earth, Jerusalem Revelation 21:1-5

 

[Davy]

John 5:29 is not speaking of two separate resurrections, although the KJV kind of makes it sound that way. I prefer the NIV version.

29 and come out – those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

That is the second resurrection. One resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked.

Here's how I see Scripture teaching the events; where I don't agree is with treating the "dead" of Rev.20:5 meaning they aren't raised until the end of the thousand years. NO idea of flesh death can be applied after Christ's coming; only the "second death" is in effect for that time.

1. Christ's return: both just and the unjust resurrected to a spiritual body on that day. Everyone on earth... are changed to the spiritual body on that day. Christ's elect who will reign with Him are the "first resurrection" and never subject to the "second death".

2. The raised unjust are the "dead" of Rev.20:5. Even though resurrected, their souls are still spiritually dead and is still subject to the "second death" at the end of the thousand years.

3. Jesus and His elect reign over the resurrected nations on earth. That's right. No one is in a flesh body any longer. But there's still dead souls of the unjust present.

4. God's Salvation is preached to those who never heard The Gospel. One of the duties of the priest is to teach God's Word. As written in Isaiah 29:24, those that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

5. At the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed to test these. Some of the nations follow Satan and are destroyed.

6. GWT Judgment, the Books are opened, those of the Rev.20:5 "dead" who come to Christ live again being of a second resurrection like the first resurrection unto Eternal Life. The rest of the 'dead' whose names are not found written go into the lake of fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

Another easy one. Paul tells us we've already been resurrected, and Jesus tells us that we'll be resurrected on the last day.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Two resurrections right there.

I disagree the word "Resurrection" is always reserved for the bodily, not spiritual.

 

[DavidPT]

No, no. It doesn't say that. See, this is where you have to be careful. We're not told that "only the rest of the dead live again". We're told that "the rest of the dead live again". You can't insert that word "only" because that changes the meaning.

The way it's written allows for the second resurrection to include both the wicked and the righteous. The way you say it, it sounds like the second resurrection is only for the wicked. You have to read it the way it's written and not change the meaning with subtle little words.

I don't get your reasoning sometimes? There's only one group in view in that sentence, and that group is the rest of the dead.

If there is initially a group of the dead where everyone in that entire group is dead at some point, including both the righteous and the unrighteous, and that we are told that the rest of dead does not live again until the thousand years are finshed, what about the other dead from this group of dead where everyone in that entire group is dead at some point? When do they get to live again? How can it possibly not be a time prior to when the rest of the dead live again?

It would look something like this. The dead, everyone in this group at this point are all physically dead. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. At this point some in this group of the dead are no longer dead. To be dead then no longer dead obviously means to live again. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. These remain dead and don't live again until the thousand years are finished, exactly like the text very plainly indicates. The text is only meaning these, so to say 'only' like I have been saying, this is the correct conclusion to come to.

 

[Davy]

The last trump will see the resurrection and glorified eternal body.

the righteous will reign on earth?

however it will be the eternal Newheaven, Earth, Jerusalem Revelation 21:1-5

I cannot agree that the new heavens and the new earth starts on the day of Jesus' return. I strongly uphold to that "thousand years" period written in Rev.20 of the time when Jesus must put all enemies under His feet, and then the GWT Judgment and lake of fire, and then... the new heavens and a new earth. The unsaved will never see the new heavens and a new time.

But... as shown in Ezekiel 47, the unjust will see the return of God's River of the waters of life and Tree of Life back to this earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Here's how I see Scripture teaching the events; where I don't agree is with treating the "dead" of Rev.20:5 meaning they aren't raised until the end of the thousand years. NO idea of flesh death can be applied after Christ's coming; only the "second death" is in effect for that time.

1. Christ's return: both just and the unjust resurrected to a spiritual body on that day. Everyone on earth... are changed to the spiritual body on that day. Christ's elect who will reign with Him are the "first resurrection" and never subject to the "second death".

2. The raised unjust are the "dead" of Rev.20:5. Even though resurrected, their souls are still spiritually dead and is still subject to the "second death" at the end of the thousand years.

3. Jesus and His elect reign over the resurrected nations on earth. That's right. No one is in a flesh body any longer. But there's still dead souls of the unjust present.

4. God's Salvation is preached to those who never heard The Gospel. One of the duties of the priest is to teach God's Word. As written in Isaiah 29:24, those that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

5. At the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed to test these. Some of the nations follow Satan and are destroyed.

6. GWT Judgment, the Books are opened, those of the Rev.20:5 "dead" who come to Christ live again being of a second resurrection like the first resurrection unto Eternal Life. The rest of the 'dead' whose names are not found written go into the lake of fire.

Jesus Christ Taught in Matthew 25:31-46 That At His Second Coming, The Final Judgment, Eternal Life, Eternal Kingdom Takes Place.

"No Earthly Millennial Kingdom Of 1000 Years To Follow".

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns wth the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 the righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

Eternity Has Started, For Ever And Ever

 

[Davy]

I don't get your reasoning sometimes? There's only one group in view in that sentence, and that group is the rest of the dead.

If there is initially a group of the dead where everyone in that entire group is dead at some point, including both the righteous and the unrighteous, and that we are told that the rest of dead does not live again until the thousand years are finshed, what about the other dead from this group of dead where everyone in that entire group is dead at some point? When do they get to live again? How can it possibly not be a time prior to when the rest of the dead live again?

It would look something like this. The dead, everyone in this group at this point are all physically dead. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. At this point some in this group of the dead are no longer dead. To be dead then no longer dead obviously means to live again. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. These remain dead and don't live again until the thousand years are finished, exactly like the text very plainly indicates. The text is only meaning these, so to say 'only' like I have been saying, this is the correct conclusion to come to.

Which way are you thinking about the word "dead" for that future time? There is no flesh death in that time, that's over and no more. Only the "second death" is in effect after Jesus' return.

Have you not considered that God's Word teaches the concept of being spiritually dead inside one's flesh?

So how is Rev.20:5 about the "dead" really meant? Does it mean those are still in graves not having been raised (which would contradict our Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29). Or does it simply mean the unjust raised that are still subject to the "second death" and thus are still spiritually 'the dead'? I believe it's the latter.

 

[Truth7t7]

I cannot agree that the new heavens and the new earth starts on the day of Jesus' return. I strongly uphold to that "thousand years" period written in Rev.20 of the time when Jesus must put all enemies under His feet, and then the GWT Judgment and lake of fire, and then... the new heavens and a new earth. The unsaved will never see the new heavens and a new time.

But... as shown in Ezekiel 47, the unjust will see the return of God's River of the waters of life and Tree of Life back to this earth.

The unjust/wicked will not be partaking in the eternal kingdom as seen in Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5, same tree and river of life.

Anyone eating from the tree of life will live eternally Genesis 3:22-24

The unjust/wicked will not be partaking in any part of the glory found in the eternal kingdom.

 

[DavidPT]

Which way are you thinking about the word "dead" for that future time? There is no flesh death in that time, that's over and no more. Only the "second death" is in effect after Jesus' return.

Have you not considered that God's Word teaches the concept of being spiritually dead inside one's flesh?

So how is Rev.20:5 about the "dead" really meant? Does it mean those are still in graves not having been raised (which would contradict our Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29). Or does it simply mean the unjust raised that are still subject to the "second death" and thus are still spiritually 'the dead'? I believe it's the latter.

If I'm not mistaken, don't you too place the thousand years after the 2nd coming? If yes, and that the rest of the dead are raised at the 2nd coming, where do the rest of the dead hang out during the thousand years? If they are not still in their graves, and that none of them are yet in the lake of fire, where are they then, meaning physically?

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus Christ Taught in Matthew 25:31-46 That At His Second Coming, The Final Judgment, Eternal Life, Eternal Kingdom Takes Place.

"No Earthly Millennial Kingdom Of 1000 Years To Follow".

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns wth the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 the righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

Eternity Has Started, For Ever And Ever

If I'm not mistaken, don't you too place the thousand years after the 2nd coming? If yes, and that the rest of the dead are raised at the 2nd coming, where do the rest of the dead hang out during the thousand years? If they are not still in their graves, and that none of them are yet in the lake of fire, where are they then, meaning physically?