Millennial Considerations

[DavidPT]

Since fingerprint scans and retina scans are popular biometrics used today for identification it is possible that some advanced usage of these will be used , the eyes are in the forehead and fingerprints on the hand - also palm prints are being used for identification.

It is possible to create and method of using a combination of each of these with a number to be used , it will be needed to partake of the economy and since ID is always used to get a job it will likely be incorporated with that as well.
We already have things like a facial scan to unlock your phone or a retinal scan so we are living in a time where various methods can be utilized to make this prophecy come to the world wide economy

I guess we have to reason through things like this logically. Some people might reason through things, but a lot of times I don't know if I might call it 'logically' though.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

I guess when you think about it, hard to make sense out of the text here if this mark isn't physical. So maybe you are correct, the mark indeed might be physical.

 

[Truth7t7]

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[Truth7t7]

Just as I Thought, After A Open Request To Post The Entire Chapter Of 81 in my post #433?

Ole Dave In His Personal Bias For A Earthly 1000 Year kingdom Hides 2/3 of the chapter, Where Justin Martyr Equates The 1000 Years With The Eternal New Heaven And Earth, Quoting Isaiah 65

Why would you hide this very important aspect of the chapter Dave, When I directly requested you Quote the "Entire Chapter"?

You only left off 2/3 of the chapter, to mold and shape your private interpretation

Of course you have a personal bias in my opinion, and this action clearly shows that

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Justin Martyr 100-165AD

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent[shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, i saith the Lord.' Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree[of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the nay fie ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'

Chapter 81. He endeavours to prove this opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse

Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree [of life ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.' Luke 20:35f.

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 69-88 (Justin Martyr)

No one could possibly read this and conclude that Justin was equating a thousand years with eternity, could they???? This part for one proves it, that Justin didn't equate the thousand years with that of eternity---For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject.

Let's go to Genesis 5 for a moment.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

70 years shy of a thousand years. Clearly Justin took this thousand years in the literal sense then, and this for one proves it.

For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years-----And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Why would Justin be taking the thousand years in a literal sense when it came to the days of Adam, while at the same time taking this same thousand years as meaning eternity?

Justin went on to say----that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.

If a thousand years and eternity are one and the same, then this part----the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place---could never take place. In order for the latter to take place, it requires the former ends first. Ummm...eternity has no end, but a thousand years would. But that doesn't mean the thousand years can't take place in the eternal realm. But that's not the same as the thousand years and the eternal realm being one and the same.

 

[Truth7t7]

Post deleted

 

[Davy]

All the text says is that hour is coming, which doesn't require it has to be the same hour that these things occur.

Using Revelation 20 as a template, the above seems to be meaning the following.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life at the beginning of the thousand years; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation after the thousand years have finished.

Folks just aren't understanding the power of God.

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'
KJV

That is where Apostle Paul was pulling from when teaching about 'death swallowed up in victory'. Who all is that being applied to here in Isaiah 25? It applies to ALL... nations, ALL people on that event of the "last trump".

It has long... been assumed by men's traditions that Apostle Paul was talking about the Church only... in that change at the "twinkling of an eye" on the "last trump". Not so, as here in Isaiah 25 is where he was pulling from about death being swallowed up.

As our Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29, all the dead in the graves will hear His voice in that specific hour (at the "last trump") and come forth, both the just and the unjust. Then Rev.5 teaches that Christ's elect will then reign "on the earth", which has to mean in the resurrection type body, i.e., the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

At that point in time on that 'day', death in the flesh will be no more. The only type of death possible after that point will be the "second death" of Rev.20.

 

[Truth7t7]

All the text says is that hour is coming, which doesn't require it has to be the same hour that these things occur.

Using Revelation 20 as a template, the above seems to be meaning the following.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life at the beginning of the thousand years; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation after the thousand years have finished.


In this scenerio would it still be true that the hour came, in the which all that are in the graves hear his voice? Apparently yes, unless someone would like to explain how those who come to life again after the thousand years do that without hearing His voice first, and how that would mean the hour didn't come in their case. And then also explain how those who come to life at the beginning of the thousand years could do that without hearing His voice first, and how that would mean the hour didn't come in their case either.

John 5:28-29 is seen in a parallel teaaching in Daniel 12:1-2

In Daniel we see the resurrection takes place in conjunction with the great tribulation, when the book of life is open.

Your private interpretation that "Hour" in John 5:28-29 could account for multiple different times is false.

There is only one time the book of life is open

Your private interpretation of the judgment of the righteous and wicked being 1000 years apart is false, not found in the scripture.

 

[LastSeven]

Yes he did but it does not say that they all hear it at the same time.

Do you really not see how far you're stretching?

 

[LastSeven]

explain this verse in light of your understanding
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the firstresurrection.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but this is too simple. The first resurrection is for the righteous only. The second resurrection is for both the righteous and the wicked.

In other words, the righteous get two resurrections. A spiritual, and a physical. Those who take part in the spiritual resurrection (accepting Jesus) don't have to fear the lake of fire.

 

[LastSeven]

Scripture Clearly states vividly that people who were dead , came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Christ is not reigning over dead people , only the living and those people who were dead - now living and reigning with Christ

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

There's your first resurrection and reign with Christ, right there. It doesn't get much clearer than this.

 

[Davy]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but this is too simple. The first resurrection is for the righteous only. The second resurrection is for both the righteous and the wicked.

In other words, the righteous get two resurrections. A spiritual, and a physical. Those who take part in the spiritual resurrection (accepting Jesus) don't have to fear the lake of fire.

You just about convinced me, until I read the righteous get both a spiritual and a physical resurrection. How did you derive that?

 

[DavidPT]

Just as I Thought, After A Open Request To Post The Entire Chapter Of 81 in my post #433?

Ole Dave In His Personal Bias For A Earthly 1000 Year kingdom Hides 2/3 of the chapter, Where Justin Martyr Equates The 1000 Years With The Eternal New Heaven And Earth, Quoting Isaiah 65

Why would you hide this very important aspect of the chapter Dave, When I directly requested you Quote the "Entire Chapter"?

You only left off 2/3 of the chapter, to mold and shape your private interpretation

Of course you have a personal bias in my opinion, and this action clearly shows that

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Justin Martyr 100-165AD

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent[shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, i saith the Lord.' Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree[of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the nay fie ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'

The point I made with what I submitted should have been enough by itself to prove the point that Justin obviously took this thousand years in the literal sense. I too place the time of the thousand years parallel with the time of the new heavens and new earth. And you don't see me concluding the thousand years and eternity are one and the same.

Do you believe that the Bible sometimes has certain patterns throughout, meaning where something always means the same thing throughout the entire Bible? If you per chance do, find one place in the entire Bible where a cardinal number followed by years is not meant in the literal sense. This then tells us how to understand the number thousand when it is followed by years. If it's meaning in the literal sense every other time a cardinal number is followed by years, the same has to be true when a thousand is followed by years, that it too is meaning it in the literal sense. That doesn't mean a thousand is always meant as literal though. But we are talking about years here, and not cattle on hills, etc.

 

[LastSeven]

LastSeven,

I thank you for the detailed point by point breakdown.

But there is not a chance I will ever convert to Amil.... none.

Never say never.

Point 4.... we currently reign with Jesus .... I have a problem with that too...... we have no power whatsoever....

Are you sure about that? Did the 72 have no power either?

Luke 10:17
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

The last point.... When Jesus returns His reign ends.... is an error as far as I am concerned ..... Jesus reigns forever and ever.....

You mean there's an error in 1 Corinthians 15?

Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father

Finally I also cannot accept that Jesus does not need to reign on a physical earth...... He was humiliated on a physical earth and He must also reign on a physical earth....

That's your own opinion, but you know the Bible doesn't say that, right? Unless of course we're talking about the new earth, but you're not.

Anyway it was good of you to break it down for me....

You're welcome.

 

[Truth7t7]

The point I made with what I submitted should have been enough by itself to prove the point that Justin obviously took this thousand years in the literal sense. I too place the time of the thousand years parallel with the time of the new heavens and new earth. And you don't see me concluding the thousand years and eternity are one and the same.

Do you believe that the Bible sometimes has certain patterns throughout, meaning where something always means the same thing throughout the entire Bible? If you per chance do, find one place in the entire Bible where a cardinal number followed by years is not meant in the literal sense. This then tells us how to understand the number thousand when it is followed by years. If it's meaning in the literal sense every other time a cardinal number is followed by years, the same has to be true when a thousand is followed by years, that it too is meaning it in the literal sense. That doesn't mean a thousand is always meant as literal though. But we are talking about years here, and not cattle on hills, etc.

No Justin Martyr didnt view 1000 as literal, he associated this with the eternal new heaven and earth, the tree of life, and one day is a thousand in the Lords spiritual.

100% Eternal

Dave the point you made with me was an open show of your personal bias, in hiding 2/3 of the chapter, after my request was made to post the entire chapter

 

[LastSeven]

You just about convinced me, until I read the righteous get both a spiritual and a physical resurrection. How did you derive that?

Another easy one. Paul tells us we've already been resurrected, and Jesus tells us that we'll be resurrected on the last day.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Two resurrections right there.

 

[LastSeven]

The bodies of 21 Coptic Christians who were beheaded by ISIS have been found in a mass grave in Libya, according to Libya’s interior ministry.

Bodies of 21 Christians Found Beheaded by ISIS in Mass Grave in Libya


Tell that to the surviving family members of the above, that these beheadings weren't literal but were merely figurative. Since you are obviously wrong that the beheadings in Revelation 20 are only figurative, one has to wonder what else you might be wrong about.

You must be joking. When did I ever say that literal beheadings weren't literal? Are you purposely making strawman arguments or did you just honestly not understand what I said?

 

[LastSeven]

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.

And I might add...

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[LastSeven]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life at the beginning of the thousand years; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation after the thousand years have finished.

Whoa. Did you just add words to the prophecy? Yes you did.

 

[LastSeven]

In this scenerio would it still be true that the hour came, in the which all that are in the graves hear his voice? Apparently yes, unless someone would like to explain how those who come to life again after the thousand years do that without hearing His voice first, and how that would mean the hour didn't come in their case. And then also explain how those who come to life at the beginning of the thousand years could do that without hearing His voice first, and how that would mean the hour didn't come in their case either.

John 5:28 refers to the second resurrection. The first resurrection is spiritual. That explains it.

 

[DavidPT]

Never say never.

Let's put this to a test. Is there a chance you might ever convert to Premil? If you are a former Premil, I guess the question would be---Is there a chance you might ever convert back to Premil? Remember, you said to never say never. So I'm assuming that should include you as well.

 

[Davy]

Another easy one. Paul tells us we've already been resurrected, and Jesus tells us that we'll be resurrected on the last day.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Two resurrections right there.

Not really the subject I had in mind from what I read. But I do understand how you meant spiritual resurrection, though I always interpreted that idea to mean we who believe on Jesus are linked to His death and resurrection.

Rev.20 is speaking of a literal resurrection though, so based on what you said before I assume you believe that resurrection means a physical 'flesh body' resurrection?

That point I disagree with because the type body Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus taught the resurrection is, i.e., a "spiritual body", and one "as the angels in heaven" (1 Cor.15; Mark 12:25).