Can anyone provide an alternative to determinism or non-determinism?

[looking_for_answers_]

Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

I would love to accept libertarian free will but honestly it is so riddled with incoherencies that I just cannot, but even if it were true somehow, it is still not a satifying answer.

Compatablism ultimately seems like it's just a semantic re-working of incompatablism. Sure, you are the "ultimate" factor in that your brain ultimately sends the signal to make a decision, but even that is either caused or random...

I've been struggling with this and looking for a satisfying answer for nearly a year now. I am deep in a crisis of faith and don't understand how we can consider God "loving". Most Christians who write on this subject do so from the wrong point of view, or just do not seem to grasp the "determinism and indetermisim" vs "moral responsibility" dichotemy. A lot of the Christians I've read seem to think that indeterminism somehow answers the problem, but quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

I feel so alone in this. I've only brought it up with a handful of people in the real world and none of them were able to grasp this so I gave up. The Christians online are the same, and generally seem to think that the discussion is Calvanism vs. Arminianism, which is entirely missing the point.

Thanks and God Bless to all.

 

[Tree of Life]

I've done some thinking about this. My Bachelor's Degree is in Philosophy and so I'm familiar with the literature surrounding the free will issue and the terminology.

I think that within Biblical theology, compatibalism is a good option. Why does this diminish the love of God for you?

 

[A71]

I think if you are going to frame this alongside the matter of hell, you need to study hell very carefully.
I have struggled intensely with similar questions.

My view these days is that God really does want us to do things voluntarily. There are causal factors that impact us, but nonetheless faith shows us a point outside of all this and says, "Go on, go there". I think God just likes people with imagination and courage. That's why David was so special to him.

I'll upset a lot of people by saying this, but I don't think about hell. I see a much bigger God than that. My personal experience regarding sin is that God puts the kibosh on anything my flesh wants and he does not want.

 

[Tolworth John]

Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow

What about other external influences?
How do you fit the influence of supernatural beings into the idea that any event is determined by the event before or is random.

That our choises are influenced by our prior experiences is one thing, but our choices are also influenced by our desires.

In your studies about hell, you have research the holiness of God?

 

[looking_for_answers_]

I've done some thinking about this. My Bachelor's Degree is in Philosophy and so I'm familiar with the literature surrounding the free will issue and the terminology.

I think that within Biblical theology, compatibalism is a good option. Why does this diminish the love of God for you?

I guess it's that compatibilism doesn't really make me feel any better and my armchair philosopher's understanding of it is that it nevertheless agrees that ultimately that agent was doomed to eternal, no-opt-out torture before they were even born.

Let us think about it this way. Right now, if someone commits an act of murder, they are put to death. Or at least put in prison. This at least makes sense because of the argument that it deters others from doing the same action, and keeps that person from endangering others. But let's jump ahead to around the year 2050 or so, and imagine for a moment that we have the tech to upload a consciousness and that before killing the murderer's body, we create a digital copy of their consciousness and activate every single pain neuron, physical and emotional, to the maximal level.

This is by far the most disturbing thought I have ever had. It is also just a different version of what we essentially believe happens to unsaved souls. I would find any government that did this to be truly and utterly terrifying! The murderer is already dead, or at least removed from society - what is possibly gained by allowing such unspeakably horrific torture! Were such a dystopic government to then claim to be "loving", it would be the epitome of Orwell's "doublethink".

Honestly, this far, I didn't even need the free will debate to start beginning to doubt my assumptions about God's love.

 

[Tree of Life]

I guess it's that compatibilism doesn't really make me feel any better and my armchair philosopher's understanding of it is that it nevertheless agrees that ultimately that agent was doomed to eternal, no-opt-out torture before they were even born.

Let us think about it this way. Right now, if someone commits an act of murder, they are put to death. Or at least put in prison. This at least makes sense because of the argument that it deters others from doing the same action, and keeps that person from endangering others. But let's jump ahead to around the year 2050 or so, and imagine for a moment that we have the tech to upload a consciousness and that before killing the murderer's body, we create a digital copy of their consciousness and activate every single pain neuron, physical and emotional, to the maximal level.

This is by far the most disturbing thought I have ever had. It is also just a different version of what we essentially believe happens to unsaved souls. I would find any government that did this to be truly and utterly terrifying! The murderer is already dead, or at least removed from society - what is possibly gained by allowing such unspeakably horrific torture! Were such a dystopic government to then claim to be "loving", it would be the epitome of Orwell's "doublethink".

Honestly, this far, I didn't even need the free will debate to start beginning to doubt my assumptions about God's love.

Yeah it sounds like you're struggling more with the concept of hell than the concept of free will.

"Free will" is often retreated to as a solution for our modern problems with the notion of hell. But you may be discovering that it's not a solution at all.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

What about other external influences?
How do you fit the influence of supernatural beings into the idea that any event is determined by the event before or is random.

That our choises are influenced by our prior experiences is one thing, but our choices are also influenced by our desires.

In your studies about hell, you have research the holiness of God?

Definitely, but supernatural things don't get a free pass on this. They may not be beholden to the determinism of particle physics, but I certainly hope that they base their actions on some form of rationality, which is still deterministic. 2+2 will still equal 4 even in hogwarts, middle earth, etc

 

[Halbhh]

Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

I would love to accept libertarian free will but honestly it is so riddled with incoherencies that I just cannot, but even if it were true somehow, it is still not a satifying answer.

Compatablism ultimately seems like it's just a semantic re-working of incompatablism. Sure, you are the "ultimate" factor in that your brain ultimately sends the signal to make a decision, but even that is either caused or random...

I've been struggling with this and looking for a satisfying answer for nearly a year now. I am deep in a crisis of faith and don't understand how we can consider God "loving". Most Christians who write on this subject do so from the wrong point of view, or just do not seem to grasp the "determinism and indetermisim" vs "moral responsibility" dichotemy. A lot of the Christians I've read seem to think that indeterminism somehow answers the problem, but quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

I feel so alone in this. I've only brought it up with a handful of people in the real world and none of them were able to grasp this so I gave up. The Christians online are the same, and generally seem to think that the discussion is Calvanism vs. Arminianism, which is entirely missing the point.

Thanks and God Bless to all.

A lot of pieces here, of course. First things first, to live, Christ said to you and to me that the only way endure in faith, and make it to eternal life is hearing His words and putting them into practice in our lives. Matthew 7:24-27. He says if we don't, then we will be destroyed by ordinary storms of life.
Which commands? The ones He said to us:
"Love one another"
"forgive....seventy times seven"
"forgive your brother or sister from your heart"
"love your neighbor as yourself"
"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"
"love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and all of your soul, and all of your mind, and all of your might"

That's the part that answers what to do about having your faith tested by ideas, life, storms, unusual events, and even usual events. Living.

I can offer a lot on the aspects of free will and determinism and judgement though, and will do another post.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Yeah it sounds like you're struggling more with the concept of hell than the concept of free will.

Both, really, but I'm actually pretty okay with the idea that all our actions are ultimately a single flow of causality. It's just that in the light of this, hell has become more terrifying than I ever realized before

 

[Tree of Life]

Both, really, but I'm actually pretty okay with the idea that all our actions are ultimately a single flow of causality.

If this is so, then you are a compatibalist and you can stop worrying about highfalutin ideas like ultimate self determination.

It's just that in the light of this, hell has become more terrifying than I ever realized before

Hell ought to terrify us. That's part of its design. And God should terrify us. He is, in a sense, terrible (not in the negative sense).

 

[looking_for_answers_]

A lot of pieces here, of course. First things first, to live, Christ said to you and to me that the only way endure in faith, and make it to eternal life is hearing His words and putting them into practice in our lives. Matthew 7:24-27. He says if we don't, then we will be destroyed by ordinary storms of life.
Which commands? The ones He said to us:
"Love one another"
"forgive....seventy times seven"
"forgive your brother or sister from your heart"
"love your neighbor as yourself"
"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"
"love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and all of your soul, and all of your mind, and all of your might"

That's the part that answers what to do about having your faith tested by ideas, life, storms, unusual events, and even usual events. Living.

I can offer a lot on the aspects of free will and determinism and judgement though, and will do another post.

Thanks, I really appreciate it! Any insight is welcome

 

[Halbhh]

Did you ever notice the wording in John 3:16 really carefully? Often we just think we did, until we really look closely:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice a couple of things: We do not already have eternal Life, but instead, we are given it if we are believing in Christ, risen, when we pass.

If a person is not given eternal life, they will "perish".

This should raise a question in our minds. Why would Christ make an error and say those in hell "perish" instead of living forever if they live forever in hell?

One way of answering this involves asserting that "perish" doesn't really mean perish, but instead means some other kind of thing.

But there is another explanation that fits more scriptures, more of them, better.
Here is a good explanation one person here posted, explaining a mainstream, common Christian belief of what happens to human souls in hell (what happens to a human soul is not the same as what would happen to an immortal fallen angel):

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

 

[A71]

If you put a gun to my head I would say you are not focusing on getting to know God enough. Pray to God that you get to know him better. If we don't know him, things can indeed look scary and bleak. Our minds can be funny old places...

 

[looking_for_answers_]

If this is so, then you are a compatibalist and you can stop worrying about highfalutin ideas like ultimate self determination.



Hell ought to terrify us. That's part of its design. And God should terrify us. He is, in a sense, terrible (not in the negative sense).

This doesn't address my issue though. I can't accept "phew, thank goodness I'm one of the lucky souls that was connected to a brain that ended up deciding to follow Jesus!"

My issue is that if I were to view any other authority, whether some other god or man, doing the same thing, I would find them to be monstrous. I know I'm supposed to think "well God's doing it so it must be okay" but - I can't say that without being disingenuous. If I'm being completely honest with myself, I cannot in anyway find that to be anything short of terrifying, and it's been making it really hard for me to love or worship God these past few months

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Did you ever notice the wording in John 3:16 really carefully? Often we just think we did, until we really look closely:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice a couple of things: We do not already have eternal Life, but instead, we are given it if we are believing in Christ, risen, when we pass.

If a person is not given eternal life, they will "perish".

This should raise a question in our minds. Why would Christ make an error and say those in hell "perish" instead of living forever if they live forever in hell?

One way of answering this involves asserting that "perish" doesn't really mean perish, but instead means some other kind of thing.

But there is another explanation that fits more scriptures, more of them, better.
Here is a good explanation one person here posted, explaining a mainstream, common Christian belief of what happens to human souls in hell (what happens to a human soul is not the same as what would happen to an immortal fallen angel):

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Very interesting. Thanks, I will read more into this. I've been hesitant to explore annihilationism because even though it makes a lot more intuitive sense to me, it's considered heretical by the people around me, so I've been pretty closeted about this

 

[Halbhh]

In view of post #12, one way of asking the big question:

Why are some people rescued into eternal life, but others perish -- is that really fair?

Before we delve into the many-pieces relationships of free will, indeterminism vs determinism, and such, we can look at this in a big-picture way, quite simply.

It's about choosing love, or choosing against love.

If a person chooses to love others here in this life, they will have more love in their life.

If they choose not to love others much, they will have less love in their life.

If they choose to love only one or two a little, they will have little love in their life.

If they choose not to love anyone, they will have no love in their life.

That's fair, don't you agree?

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

See, when a person chooses against God, they are choosing against love.

It's never a picture like some boss you have to obey or else. Instead the picture is whether you choose to love, and thus choose to know God, and live, or instead one can choose against love and God and Life. We are only getting the outcome of our own choice.

The reason we are able to believe is because we choose to love, and love God, and then we are kept on the path to Life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

Remember YHWH CREATOR SUPREME AND SOVEREIGN is PERFECT in every way,

not at all as men think ......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This doesn't address my issue though. I can't accept "phew, thank goodness I'm one of the lucky souls that was connected to a brain that ended up deciding to follow Jesus!"

Somewhere in the CREATOR SOVEREIGNS WORD
IT IS Written that HE hates when His people call on lady luck. (nothing is by chance, so-called random fate, etc)

 

[SkyWriting]

Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?

Forcing people to exist with an entity they don't trust or believe in is a very cruel punishment.
Better they are left alone and tormented by their own life decisions.

 

[Tolworth John]

Definitely, but supernatural things don't get a free pass on this. They may not be beholden to the determinism of particle physics, but I certainly hope that they base their actions on some form of rationality, which is still deterministic. 2+2 will still equal 4 even in hogwarts, middle earth, etc

And how would you recognise that their actions are rational by your standards?

Jesus isn't concerned with your physical health, wealth or happiness, he is concerned about your eternal destiny.
c.s. lewes wrote about pain/trouble being road blocks on the road to hell.

How certain are you that you understand God's plan for your life?