Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

[gordonhooker]

It was not Koine Greek the phrase in question is immo quam plurimi" which is Latin. Our friend found someone, somewhere, who 'translated" it as "vast majority." It does not mean "vast majority" it means "indeed how many". We have a phrase on some of our currency which reads E Pluribus Unum, out of many one. "Plurimi" appears to be related to "pluribus" so it is unlikely it means "majority."

Sorry my mistake - the flow of the thread had been about translating Greek words from scripture so I assumed that is what you were talking about.

 

[ClementofA]

I saw the link.
I then looked at the Septuagint, and I did not see this word olam in the translation.
So with the very first verse I looked, I saw it was wrong, I didn't bother looking at any others.

Evidently you are new to this whole subject. The word OLAM is the Hebrew, which is the equivalent of the Greek words AION and AIONIOS.

The article cited gave you two verses, though your post only referred to the one without OLAM/AIONIOS, so no wonder you didn't find it there. OLAM appears in Jonah 2:6:

To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever[=OLAM]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit. (Jonah 2:6)

Obviously "forever" there wasn't "forever". It's a deceptive translation. Jonah was only 3 days in the sea creature.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mt.12:40).

 

[ClementofA]

How do you get that everyone will believe from that?
Believing is a necessary qualification.

I get all will be saved from all the all will be saved passages.

 

[gordonhooker]

I saw the link.
I then looked at the Septuagint, and I did not see this word olam in the translation.
So with the very first verse I looked, I saw it was wrong, I didn't bother looking at any others.
And in Deuteronomy 23:3
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
Because of 23:4
Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

This isn't saying after 10 generations they can enter. Not even after 10 generations.

From A Moabite Shall Not Enter • Torah.org
A bastard must not enter God’s marriage group. Even after the tenth generation, he may not enter God’s marriage group. An Ammonite or Moabite may not enter God’s marriage group. They may never enter God’s marriage group, even after the tenth generation. This is because they did not greet you with bread and water when you were on the way out of Egypt, and also because they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to curse you. Do not despise the Edomite, since he is your brother. Do not despise the Egyptian, since you were an immigrant in his land. [Therefore,] children born to [members of these nations] in the third generation [after becoming proselytes] may enter God’s marriage group.

You probably did not find 'olam' in the Septuagint because it is a Hebrew word which can mean hidden/unknown period of time.

 

[Der Alte]

And LSJ also defines aionios as age lasting.

And you ignore, ignore, ignore the definitions eternal because it does not fit the universalist agenda.

BDAG similarly. Those are only 2 sources amongst many one can cherry pick from.

It is not cherry picking to repeatedly quote the full definition of aion and aionios from two of the major Greek lexicons LSJ and BDAG.

Here are the 4 main definitions of aion by BDAG lexicon:
1. a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end
2. a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
3. the world as a spacial concept, the world
4. the Aeon as a person, the Aeon
( A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed, BDAG, 2000, pgs 32-33)
For the complete entry on aion by BDAG see:

BDAG on aionios

A cherry picked truncation of BDAG which ignores the times BDAG defines aion as eternal. My job in this forum is to counter many posters who cherry pick, selectively quote and otherwise misrepresent the sources to make them appear to support heterodox teachings.
Number one in your list is wrong! It actually reads "pert. to a period of unending duration, without end"
The complete definition of aionios from BDAG.

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)
[BDAG] αἰώνιος
•αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157),ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 AD] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I BC] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109-28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12.κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2(cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9.πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11(ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳbe glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217-28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.​

A scanned image of this complete definition at this link
http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1336

Begin quote

Liddell-Scott-Jones on aionios:
αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Hebrews 9:12 : —
1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28;
αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Romans 16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον..
ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Genesis 9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Matt 25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.;
πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2 Timothy 1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Corinthians 4:18.
2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.
3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.
4. Adv. -ίως eternally, νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.
5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88

End quote

Even as you quote LSJ it includes the definition eternal and note that definition applied to Matt 25:46

Who's ignoring Greek lexicons (i.e. scholars)? I cite them in support of my views and in opposition to yours, as you know. Here's another one:
From Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. Walvoord, Buis, and Inge

Vincent and second hand references are not lexicons. Nothing but unsupported opinion with no manuscript evidence support as in the lexicons.

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Biased nonsense. Your 'qualified" men following the biased views of which ever universalist "scholar" they can find.See my accusation is just a meaningful as yours.

 

[Hillsage]

I have Christ in me, the Giver of Life.
Eternal life is mine now. Just because I am not in Heaven yet does not mean I don't have eternal life.
Colossians 1:27 Christ in me the Hope of glory.

JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

This bible definition of 'eternal life' is a 'quality of life in time' and not a 'quantity of time in life'. I know lots of miserable Christians who don't 'know thee God and Jesus' in their back-sliden Christian walks. But they're just as hopeful as you that they also have heaven, because Jesus saved them too.

"For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."
Apparently you hope for what you claim above that you have...."Eternal life".

Question; Did doubting Thomas have FAITH to believe? Nope, but you do believe he was saved don't you? WHEN did it happen for Thomas, and was it believe by FAITH or was it by FACT? In the age to come, will those who were never "called, drawn, chosen, predestined or ordained to believe" in this age, be required to 'have faith' like you were? I see no reason for them to, because SEEING IS BELIEVING. All they will have to do, to have what you've been GIVEN in this age, is; "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord".

NOT my opinion. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
New International Version
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

New Living Translation
in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.

English Standard Version
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
in a fire of flame, inflicting vengeance on those not knowing God and on those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus,

New American Standard Bible
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

King James Bible
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

International Standard Version
in blazing fire. He will take revenge on those who do not know God and on those who refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

NET Bible
With flaming fire he will mete out punishment on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
giving vengeance to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whenever he executes vengeance in blazing fire on those who do not know God and on those who have not recognized The Good News of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He will take revenge on those who refuse to acknowledge God and on those who refuse to respond to the Good News about our Lord Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Jubilee Bible 2000
with flaming fire, to take vengeance on those that do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

King James 2000 Bible
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

American King James Version
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

American Standard Version
rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:

Douay-Rheims Bible
In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;

English Revised Version
in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:

Webster's Bible Translation
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Weymouth New Testament
He will come in flames of fire to take vengeance on those who have no knowledge of God, and do not obey the Good News as to Jesus, our Lord.

World English Bible
giving vengeance to those who don't know God, and to those who don't obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,

Young's Literal Translation
in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How disingenuous of you to quote a translation which we use repeatedly, but leave of verse 9.

Young's Literal Translation
2TH 1:9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

And every one of your translations with your POV says that GOD who never "called, drew, chose, predestined OR ordained to believe" most of his 'beloved creation' in this age, OR in the age before 'The law' OR during the age of 'the law of Moses', is now going to torture all those people for eternity. And then YOU are also going to tell me that YOUR HEART is going to call that JUSTICE. Well I like our translations better. Translations that NO BODY HERE HAS EVER REFUTED as being unscholarly works at all. Never seen that touched once.

YLT 2TH 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, AND TO THOSE not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - FROM the face of the Lord,

JUSTICE DESTRUCTION FROM the face of the Lord. Hmmmm. I thought ETERNAL HELL was separation FROM GOD. Nope, here it is the face of the Lord before who none will stand for eternity. But who will undergo destruction of "ungodliness" and "unrighteousness" from the consuming fire of love our God is. A love whose "WRATH" comes from Greek words which speak of a person with 'passion' for something so great they'll do anything to get it back where it needs to be. Some of those facing this fire will be CHRISTIANS who were"not obeying the good news" too, according to scripture. And guess what that FIRE is going to do for them "who shall be saved yet though as by FIRE." (1Cor 3:15)

 

[Doug Melven]

Evidently you are new to this whole subject. The word OLAM is the Hebrew, which is the equivalent of the Greek words AION and AIONIOS.

The article cited gave you two verses, though your post only referred to the one without OLAM/AIONIOS, so no wonder you didn't find it there. OLAM appears in Jonah 2:6:

To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever[=OLAM]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit. (Jonah 2:6)

Obviously "forever" there wasn't "forever". It's a deceptive translation. Jonah was only 3 days in the sea creature.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mt.12:40).

Looking at Jonah 2:6 it is clear this is not about Jonah.2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

Mountains inside of a fish? The earth with her bars inside a fish?

How disingenuous of you to quote a translation which we use repeatedly, but leave of verse 9.

The previous time I quoted 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 you said
"flaming fire" was my opinion. So I went to 2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. where you look at 1 verse at a time. Then I C&P'd all the translations to show you it was not my opinion.
Then you say I am disingenuous. wow.

YLT 2TH 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, AND TO THOSE not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - FROM the face of the Lord,

JUSTICE DESTRUCTION FROM the face of the Lord. Hmmmm. I thought ETERNAL HELL was separation FROM GOD. Nope

Yup. "age-during" looks eternal to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Evidently you are new to this whole subject. The word OLAM is the Hebrew, which is the equivalent of the Greek words AION and AIONIOS.
The article cited gave you two verses, though your post only referred to the one without OLAM/AIONIOS, so no wonder you didn't find it there. OLAM appears in Jonah 2:6:
To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever[=OLAM]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit. (Jonah 2:6)
Obviously "forever" there wasn't "forever". It's a deceptive translation. Jonah was only 3 days in the sea creature.
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mt.12:40).

I wonder if Jonah who was facing almost certain death in his panic might have been using hyperbole?
Now for those who haven't seen this study in other threads.
Thirty five [35] OT verses which define the word “olam.”

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.​

In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]​

In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.​

In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

In this vs. “salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.​

In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."​

In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.​

In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.

Exo 27:21
(21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.​

In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.

Exo 30:21
(21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.​

[“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Ages” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

Psa 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31].​

In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 148:6
(6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.​

In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.

Isa 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”​

In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.

[26]Isa 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.​

In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 32:40
(40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.​

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.​

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.

Lam 5:19
(19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.​

In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Dan 4:3
(3)(3:33) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]​

In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

 

[ClementofA]

It is not cherry picking to repeatedly quote the full definition of aion and aionios from two of the major Greek lexicons LSJ and BDAG.

You've cherry picked those 2 sources out of many that could have been chosen. Like, for example, Early Church Father universalist Greek scholars whose native tongue was Greek.

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Something that is "eternal" doesn't cease. Aionios is finite there. Not endless. Compare Mt.25:46 where the same Greek word is used.

Number one in your list is wrong! It actually reads "pert. to a period of unending duration, without end"

Wrong. It reads just as i stated before, copied again below from my own hardcover of BDAG, & seen at the url below:

Here are the 4 main definitions of aion by BDAG lexicon:

1. a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end
2. a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
3. the world as a spacial concept, the world
4. the Aeon as a person, the Aeon

( A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed, BDAG, 2000, pgs 32-33)
For the complete entry on aion by BDAG see:

BDAG on aionios

​

Liddell-Scott-Jones on aionios:
αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Hebrews 9:12 : —
1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28;
αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Romans 16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον..
ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Genesis 9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Matt 25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.;
πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2 Timothy 1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Corinthians 4:18.
2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.
3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.
4. Adv. -ίως eternally, νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.
5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88
Even as you quote LSJ it includes the definition eternal and note that definition applied to Matt 25:46

Mt.25:46 is listed under "1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal". What makes you think LSJ defines aionios at Mt.25:46 as "eternal" rather than "perpetual" or "lasting for an age"?

Vincent and second hand references are not lexicons. Nothing but unsupported opinion with no manuscript evidence support as in the lexicons.

I am aware that the person Vincent is not a lexicon. However the point is that he, like the authors of some lexicons, was a Greek scholar. As for lexicons, any amateur can produce a lexicon with MSS citations. That doesn't make the lexicon correct or the Word of God. Lexicons often disagree with one another and vary greatly in their citations. You yourself said you don't verify the references, so how would you know if they're correct. You said Strongs has thousands of errors. I also gave you a list of about 9 lexicons that disagreed with BDAG re aion. Furthermore, eminent lexicographer Lee in his book details many flaws in BDAG & other lexicons.

Biased nonsense. Your 'qualified" men following the biased views of which ever universalist "scholar" they can find.See my accusation is just a meaningful as yours.

That didn't address the argument. Because there's - nothing - that can answer it. You've seen it many times & have never had anything close to resembling a decent counter argument. You've tried about 10 different responses, which i'd rate from 0 to 1 on a scale of 10 being the best possible reply. Want to try again:

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

 

[Der Alte]

Evidently you are new to this whole subject. The word OLAM is the Hebrew, which is the equivalent of the Greek words AION and AIONIOS.
The article cited gave you two verses, though your post only referred to the one without OLAM/AIONIOS, so no wonder you didn't find it there. OLAM appears in Jonah 2:6:
To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever[=OLAM]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit. (Jonah 2:6)
Obviously "forever" there wasn't "forever". It's a deceptive translation. Jonah was only 3 days in the sea creature.
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mt.12:40).

I wonder if Jonah who was facing almost certain death in his panic might have been using hyperbole?
Now for those who haven't seen this study in other threads.
Thirty five [35] OT verses which define the word “olam.”

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.​

In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]​

In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.​

In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

In this vs. God Himself defines olam. "Salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.​

In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."​

In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.​

In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.

Exo 27:21
(21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.​

In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.

Exo 30:21
(21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.​

[“throughout their generations also“ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36]​

In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Ages” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

Psa 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31].​

In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 148:6
(6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.​

In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.

Isa 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”​

In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.

[26]Isa 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.​

In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 32:40
(40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.​

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.​

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.

Lam 5:19
(19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.​

In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Dan 4:3
(3)(3:33) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]​

In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

 

[ClementofA]

verses which define the word “olam.”

​

What Greek or Hebrew authority tells you the Bible defines words? What degrees in Hebrew or Greek do you have?

"I have never seen ANY word in the New Testament defined by some other word. The writers simply used the words; they didn't define them."
​

"Association with other words does NOT define a word."

As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

In order for the phrase to be correctly translated "to the king of the ages" the noun βασιλει/basilei must be in the genitive case, as it is in the 29 times it is translated "king of" in the NT. And that is why the NIV and NET translate 1 Tim 1:17 "king eternal."

Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

"This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

Have you ever had even one lesson in Koine Greek?

------------



Olam is the equivalent of aion/ios. Following are examples of aionios as finite duration.

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios)
decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity,
and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,
in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?
where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)


“Don’t be afraid; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be disappointed: for you shall forget the shame of your youth(aionios);
and the reproach of your widowhood you shall remember no more. (Isa 54:4)

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
The Eons
EONS AND WORLDS

forever and ever: a poor translation:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html

 

[ClementofA]

I wonder if Jonah who was facing almost certain death in his panic might have been using hyperbole?

What makes you think the man of God was in a panic for 3 days? When he wrote the book of Jonah was he in a panic?

To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever[=OLAM]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit. (Jonah 2:6)

"However a few remarks respecting the derivation of the Hebrew word 'olam' are included here. This noun is derived from the verb 'alam', universally accepted as meaning 'to hide', 'keep secret', or 'obscure'. Included in each occurrence of the verb is the idea of hiddenness of inability or unwillingness to perceive or disclose something. This underlying idea is probably best expressed in English by the term 'obscurity'."

"...Jonah's case is important. In Jonah 2:6 olam is used to denote the time of his sojourn in the interior of the great fish. Shut away in complete darkness, he would have no means of judging the passing of time, which along with most other percepts, would be quite 'obscure'. In his case olam represents but three days, but the idea of obscurity is obvious."

Time and Eternity - Chapter Two: Derivation of Olam

" Buxtorf and Schindler define olam as "A hidden time, an age, time hidden from man."

Aiōn-Aiōnios: An Excursus on the Greek Word Rendered Everlasting, Eternal ...
By John Wesley Hanson

Aiōn-Aiōnios

" Klein mentions that olam might derive from the root עלם, "to hide", meaning "the hidden, unknown time"."

Balashon - Hebrew Language Detective: olam

"Some scholars point out that the noun olam is derived from the verb alam meaning hidden, concealed and unknown time."

Olam: time and space

"Parkhurst, the author of the Hebrew Lexicon, says olam denotes a "hidden duration" and that " it seems to be much more frequently used for indefinite, than for finite time."

A discussion on the doctrine of endless punishment

"The word that is rendered aiõn-aiõnios in the Greek Septuagint, and everlasting, eternal, etc., in the English Bible, is õlam, in the original Hebrew Scriptures, derived from olm to cover, or conceal. It literally means hidden, unknown, and, when applied to time, it signifies indefinite duration, whether past or future."

"...Duncan, in his Hebrew Lexicon, thus defines olam:—1. "A long indefinite period. Tempus homini absconditum tarn infinitum et eternum quam finitum, ut Gen. xvii: 8, etc., plerumque est perpetuum, eternum, sempiternum. Robertson's Thesaurus. Exod. xxi: 6.—2. Perpetuity, durability, Is. lxiv: 4.—But most frequently eternity.—3. The world, Eccles. iii: 11." Buxtorf and Schindler define olam as "A hidden time, an age, time hidden from man." "Gesenius, in the last edition of his Hebrew Lexicon, gives eternity as the first meaning of olam, but remarks that "it is frequently used in a limited sense." J. W. Haley asserts that "the Hebrew olam, rendered forever, does not imply the metaphysical idea of absolute endlessness, but a period of indefinite length, as Rambach says, "a very long time, the end of which is hidden from us."

Introduction from Aiõn-aiõnios by Hanson

"Hebrew " Olam," commonly derived from alom, "to hide," = " hidden," i.e. distant time;..."

Dictionary of Doctrinal and Historical Theology
By John Henry Blunt

Dictionary of Doctrinal and Historical Theology

"ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point"

Strong's Concordance
H5769 עלם עולם - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon

1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions
H5769 עלם עולם - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon

Olam & Gesenius' (Hebrew scholar & lexicon author):

"Gesenius observes: "It denotes, what is hidden; especially hidden time, long; the beginning or end of which is eitheruncertain, or else not defined"

Future Punishment

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

 

[Doug Melven]

1. a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end

If a long period of time has no beginning or end, that would be eternal, Like God is eternal.

For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

Who ever said Satan's kingdom would last?

 

[Der Alte]

What makes you think the man of God was in a panic for 3 days? When he wrote the book of Jonah was he in a panic?

You think a man who is facing almost certain death is not in a state of panic? He wrote about what he experienced. I served two years in combat. I was shot down five times wounded once I know what it is like.

" Buxtorf and Schindler define olam as "A hidden time, an age, time hidden from man."

Irrelevant unless they have accredited expertise in Hebrew. Then they still may be irrelevant absent any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support their view.

Aiōn-A.iōnios: An Excursus on the Greek Word Rendered Everlasting, Eternal ...
By John Wesley Hanson

Irrelevant unless he has accredited expertise in Greek. Then they still may be irrelevant absent any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support his view.

" Klein mentions that olam might derive from the root עלם, "to hide", meaning "the hidden, unknown time"."

Olam "might" derive from alam" So we build an entire doctrine on a supposition? BDB, below, says nothing about any derivation. That is the lexical fallacy,
"Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;"

עוֹלָם n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity — 1. of past time: a. ancient time: ˊיְמֵי ע‍ days of old; ˊעַם ע‍ ancient people; ˊחָרְבוֹת ע‍ old waste places; ˊפִּתְחֵי ע‍ ancient gates; ˊע‍(םֵ) מִן from of old, of the fathers, the prophets, the ancient נפלים; ˊבהם ע‍ long in them. b. ˊמֵתֵי ע‍ the long dead. c. of God, ˊמֵע‍: former acts; as redeemer; of love, judgment, dominion; long silence; his wisdom personif.; his existence. d. of things: ˊגבעות ע‍ ancient hills. e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים years of ancient times; לעלמים in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep. for ever, always (sts. = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever; ˊעָבַד לע‍ serve for ever; ˊגְּאֻלַּת ע‍ redemption at any time; ˊהֲרַת ע‍ ever pregnant (womb); ˊכְּלִמַּת ע‍ of persecutors of Jeremiah; ˊשַׁלְוֵי ע‍ alway at ease; ˊיְחִי לע‍ (יחיה) may the king live alway; so of the pious; other phr.; אשׁירה ˊע‍ I will sing for ever (as long as I live); other emotions and activities continuous through life. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth; other phr., heavens and contents, ruined cities, ruined lands; ˊלעד עד ע‍ for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: (Babylon loqu.); ˊישׁב לע‍ of Judah; (3) families; the dynasty of Saul; house of Eli; (4) national relations:ˊאיבת ע‍ continual enmity; of exclusion from ˊקהל י‍, ˊעד ע‍; various relations; ˊחרפת ע‍ perpetual reproach, of dynasty of David, families. c. of divine existence: אל עולם; ˊאלהי ע‍; ˊחי אנכי לע‍; ˊחֵי הע‍; of divine name, ˊשׁמי לְע‍ זה; blessing and praise of it; of ˊי‍ himself; attributes, אהבה; reign; presence in Zion; his salvation; ˊזרעת ע‍ everlasting arms. d. of God’s covenant: ˊבְּרִית ע‍ everlasting covenant; covenant with Noah, ˊלְדֹרֹת ע‍; God remembers it; will not break it, ˊלע‍. e. of God’s laws; temple to bear God’s name, ˊעד ע‍; consecrated; its ceremonies; Levit. priesthood; Aaronic priesthood. f. of God’s promises: his word, ˊיקום לע‍; promised dynasty of David; of holy land; given ˊלע‍, inherited ˊלע‍; dwelt in ˊעד ע‍; other blessings; Jerus. to abide ˊלע‍. g. of relations between God and his people, ˊלע‍. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: ˊע‍(ל); having divine throne; name endures; established; God blesses him; of his reign. i. = indefinite, unending future: live ˊלע‍; יִחְיוּ ˊהלע‍ הנביאים the prophets, can they live for ever?; c. neg. never. j. after death. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם the age of the world he hath set, etc. 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity. m. special phr.: (מן) עולם(ה) עד(ו) עולם(ה)ם from everlasting to everlasting, of ˊי‍, ˊי‍ חסד; benedictions; the land given; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God; dynasty of David; of God’s acts, words, etc.; v. further I. עַד.
Whitaker, R., Brown, F., Driver, S. R. (Samuel R., & Briggs, C. A. (Charles A. (1906). The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament: from A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, based on the lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius. Boston; New York: Houghton, Mifflin and Company.​

 

[ClementofA]

If a long period of time has no beginning or end, that would be eternal, Like God is eternal.

The quote says "without ref. to beginning or end", not that it has no beginning or end. Just no reference point as to when the "long period" begins or end.

Who ever said Satan's kingdom would last?

The point is that the word mistranslated eternal is used by this early church father of finite duration:

For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Something that is "eternal" doesn't cease. Aionios is finite there. Not endless. Compare Mt.25:46 where the same Greek word is used.

 

[ClementofA]

To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever[=OLAM]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit. (Jonah 2:6)

Olam & Gesenius' (Hebrew scholar & lexicon author):

"Gesenius observes: "It denotes, what is hidden; especially hidden time, long; the beginning or end of which is either uncertain, or else not defined"

Future Punishment

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"...Jonah's case is important. In Jonah 2:6 olam is used to denote the time of his sojourn in the interior of the great fish. Shut away in complete darkness, he would have no means of judging the passing of time, which along with most other percepts, would be quite 'obscure'. In his case olam represents but three days, but the idea of obscurity is obvious."

Time and Eternity - Chapter Two: Derivation of Olam

 

[Doug Melven]

For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

I do not see this verse in Scripture.
What is being referred to is something a man said. What a man said, does not carry the weight of Scripture.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[ClementofA]

I do not see this verse in Scripture.
What is being referred to is something a man said. What a man said, does not carry the weight of Scripture.

Language experts learn the meaning of words by how they were used. That includes extrabiblical usage. As for examples in Scripture, i already posted several lists proving aion and aionios & olam are used of finite duration.

 

[Hillsage]

The previous time I quoted 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 you said
"flaming fire" was my opinion.

I vaguely remembered saying 'something' along those lines and was honestly thinkingth I might have to apologize. But then I went looking, and you did not read close enough to truly understand what was plainly said. My emphasis of 'flaming fire' had to do with torture, which is 'your opinion'...along with all others who believe in 'eternal hell', 'eternal torment', 'eternal punish-ING'.

Read my original quote again....below.
"I hope this 'flaming fire' of torture (your opinion) isn't anything LIKE the fire that our GOD is."
I added the underline and 'LIKE' to my original quote for even better clarification.

We do believe in just punishment for sins. And Jesus' physical death on the cross paid for the eternal forgiveness of the sins of ALL. But you will still die temporally from the temporal consequence. IOW the 'eternal life' you mentioned having in the last post isn't working so well in the church today with the temporal consequence of sins. Why not?

Then you say I am disingenuous. wow.

Now you know why, I hope.

Yup. "age-during" looks eternal to me.

Yup. Different eyes see different things. Something that happens 'during an AGE' is most certainly limited to 'that age' and not ETERNALLY to my eyes. And 'bible students' know there were at least TWO more ages to come, even after 61 AD when Ephesians 2:7 was written. A point which even eliminates that orthodox curse of an eternally unforgiven sin called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

KJV EPH 2:7 That in the ages/aion to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

KJV MAT 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world/aion, neither in the world/aion to come.

Of course all other translations interpret a different 'truth'.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

And Matthew was written 60 years before Ephesians which claims multiples more "ages to come". SO, no unforgivable sin in the bible, to those who see like me.

 

[gordonhooker]

Language experts learn the meaning of words by how they were used. That includes extrabiblical usage. As for examples in Scripture, i already posted several lists proving aion and aionios & olam are used of finite duration.

Hey ClementofA you may as well do this then try and explain the problems with how translators have to make decisions in applying their expertise....