Protestant beliefs

[ToBeLoved]

Great! Sorry, no specific denomination; rather than gathering around doctrines, we gather around spiritual fathers. For me these include Bill Johnson, Kris Vallotton, Jonathan Welton, Shawn Boltz and many others but Bethel and Welton Academy are my two favourites

I’d research a little those first two people / names. Doctrine and activities.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Regarding the names being given ... if those are the circles one is going to remain in ... it might be of interest to check into Derek Prince and Jack Hayford. I would wish for everyone the richness of the long spiritual traditions of Christianity going far back, such as found within the Philokalia. But if one is going to remain within only a particular group of modern teachers, those two are more to be recommended than some associated ones.

 

[dms1972]

[QUOTE="Marvin Knox

I think what Luther is trying to say in the quote is that we must truly see ourselves as great sinners or else it is impossible that we can truly see Jesus as our great Savior. After all, believing that you are “saved” requires that you believe there is something to be saved “from”.[/QUOTE]

Hi, I have not read all Luther wrote, but does he not recognise that after conversion, a believer is a new creature in Christ, both sinner and saint - sinner and justified man, that both need to be acknowledged? I realise that he says somewhere that even our finest acts are tainted by sin.

How does Luther understand sanctification?

 

[Vicomte13]

Funny - I get very mellow and laid back when I drink a good German beer and eat some sausages and sauerkraut - especially when I follow it with a good quality cigar.

Sounds nice. Maybe not everyday at every meal though.

 

[Myychael]

I always refer to myself as a “Jesus man”. A free man in Christ....I agree with EVERTHING Harry Ironside said....check out Or google ironside gospel and you will see everthing I hold dear in Christianity. God bless you,fine woman

I like Ironsides to I have some of his works

 

[Halbhh]

All Protestants who know church history knows that it was Martin Luther who is the father of Protestantism. Since then, many Protestant denominations have arisen with differing beliefs on grace and sin and salvation. They differ from the most liberal - sin so grace can abound, all the way to sinless perfection.

Here is a letter from Martin Luther on his view. "Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger.

Here is the letter in context. What are the views of your denomination, and what denomination is that. Thanks.

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner.

Luther needs a lot of translation from that situation and time and place -- that context -- over to ours today.

I take the best way to take what Luther could mean in that quote is that we must be honest to realize we are sinners, and realize we are saved by grace. Admitting that we sin (being honest, reality), and then relying on Grace, real faith, as we must.

See, Luther presumed confession would continue!

As in 1 John 1, and James 5.

But, looking back at the 16th century, it was a time when it was crucial to emphasize the fact we can't earn salvation with our own deeds, as in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 and 9 -- so it was needed at that time, to highlight and emphasize verses 8 and 9, even without a need to talk about verse 10.

Even though verse 10 is the direct continuation of 8 & 9, even part of them --

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Today is not like 1517, and verse 10 is today no longer can be presumed, but instead is sorely needed now, because of some modern ideas that rely on ignoring such verses to the peril of those hearing those ideas (as shown for instance in Matthew ch 7, verses 21-27 ).

 

[Oldmantook]

Even though I would like to think that no one practices what Luther first said, which may have mellowed since then, I get what you are saying about works being no gospel at all. I'm sort of on an island by myself. I do not believe we can practice sinning and still stay saved, nor do I believe in the Sabbath keeper group whose emphasis is on the Law instead of Spirit. And the holiness groups go deep into legalism about outward things like smoking, having a glass of wine with dinner, playing cards, makeup, jewelry, going to movies or dances - the list goes on. So I started this post to find a church where I might find some like minded people to fellowship with comfortably. Maybe I should start my own denomination like Amy Semple McPherson did. LTT (laughing through tears)

I see where you are coming from. My own experience is that it is difficult to find a Protestant denomination that emphasizes holiness (biblical holiness; not legalism). I'm not claiming that there aren't any; just that they're hard to find. That is why I don't attend the institutional church anymore. Since then I've gone the house church route where we share like-minded beliefs. I've learned more in house church and my own studies then all the years I attended church, including seminary believe it or not. I used to serve on staff at a church belonging to the Missionary Church USA denomination. The denomination is Arminian in belief but the Sr. Pastor is a Calvinist. Go figure. Time for another reformation?
15 Theses. Wolfgang Simson

 

[Marvin Knox]

How does Luther understand sanctification?

Try this link.

CORE

 

[dms1972]

Thanks for the link, thats quite a useful overview. I have read quickly through it, and at this point have to wonder if there is much significant difference between Wesley and Luther in this despite the controversy?

If one has been brought up in a works righteousness teaching, Luther I don't doubt is a needful corrective, and breath of fresh air.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I see where you are coming from. My own experience is that it is difficult to find a Protestant denomination that emphasizes holiness (biblical holiness; not legalism). I'm not claiming that there aren't any; just that they're hard to find. That is why I don't attend the institutional church anymore. Since then I've gone the house church route where we share like-minded beliefs. I've learned more in house church and my own studies then all the years I attended church, including seminary believe it or not. I used to serve on staff at a church belonging to the Missionary Church USA denomination. The denomination is Arminian in belief but the Sr. Pastor is a Calvinist. Go figure. Time for another reformation?
15 Theses. Wolfgang Simson

How many are still left in that church with that pastor? Oil and water don't mix well. Constant shaking produces a nice salad dressing, but it plays havoc on people. They are not equally yoked.

I prefer a house church, and was recently in a Bible study with some nice people where we could all share. After weeks of sharing nicely, the soft spoken leader of the group verbally attacked me and my views and nobody said a thing. They all believed I was wrong to believe we are dead to sin. Just foolishness.

So now I'm a hermit again.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think that this may have been taken out of context. He mentioned about "an imaginary sin". So the "strong" may mean "obvious". It means that you don't hide your sin or avoid addressing your sin. You need to make them more obvious and thus to know more clearly how your faith in Christ will work.

What you believe is certainly a mellowing of Luther's.

 

[Vicomte13]

They all believed I was wrong to believe we are dead to sin.

Probably because they all still sin, and know it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Luther needs a lot of translation from that situation and time and place -- that context -- over to ours today.

I take the best way to take what Luther could mean in that quote is that we must be honest to realize we are sinners, and realize we are saved by grace. Admitting that we sin (being honest, reality), and then relying on Grace, real faith, as we must.

See, Luther presumed confession would continue!

As in 1 John 1, and James 5.

But, looking back at the 16th century, it was a time when it was crucial to emphasize the fact we can't earn salvation with our own deeds, as in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 and 9 -- so it was needed at that time, to highlight and emphasize verses 8 and 9, even without a need to talk about verse 10.

Even though verse 10 is the direct continuation of 8 & 9, even part of them --

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Today is not like 1517, and verse 10 is today no longer can be presumed, but instead is sorely needed now, because of some modern ideas that rely on ignoring such verses to the peril of those hearing those ideas (as shown for instance in Matthew ch 7, verses 21-27 ).

Yes, a true Christian is not lawless, as the person in Mt. 7. We do not avoid sin by our own strength (works), but Jesus has given us His Own Spirit to dwell in us making our flesh/nature "dead to sin." We are new creations.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Probably because they all still sin, and know it.

I don't know. I do know some of them like Andrew Womack. Is he Calvinist or Arminian?

 

[dms1972]

I think the 'sin boldly' quote is a gross misquote. If its done to get people to find out what Luther really said thats different, and the OP has very helpfully quoted Luther in greater context. Would I be mistaken for adding to the context that Luther had been talking to Melancthon, who seemed to be always confessing to him very minor pecadellos? If I am wrong on that I apologise.

 

[Vicomte13]

I don't know. I do know some of them like Andrew Womack. Is he Calvinist or Arminian?

I'm a Catholic. "Calvinist" and "Arminian" are just not things we know anything about. To me, a Calvinist is somebody who follows the teachings of Calvin, and Armininians are those who follow some fellow named Arminius. What they actually taught, and how they differ? Couldn't tell you.

 

[Oldmantook]

How many are still left in that church with that pastor? Oil and water don't mix well. Constant shaking produces a nice salad dressing, but it plays havoc on people. They are not equally yoked.

I prefer a house church, and was recently in a Bible study with some nice people where we could all share. After weeks of sharing nicely, the soft spoken leader of the group verbally attacked me and my views and nobody said a thing. They all believed I was wrong to believe we are dead to sin. Just foolishness.

So now I'm a hermit again.

The church where I served is still thriving apparently. The problem as I see it is that the sheep believe and accept whatever the pastor believe/teaches without critically examining the scriptures for themselves. Thus there is no counter-balance or questioning of what is being taught. The church by and large has ceased being of the Berean mind-set where they each examined the scriptures for themselves.

I'm sorry to hear of your experience in the Bible study. My own experience has been one of being out in the wilderness - a lonely and unpopular place to be. Despite that, I could never go back to the institutional church based upon my convictions.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think the 'sin boldly' quote is a gross misquote. If its done to get people to find out what Luther really said thats different, and the OP has very helpfully quoted Luther in greater context. Would I be mistaken for adding to the context that Luther had been talking to Melancthon, who seemed to be always confessing to him very minor pecadellos? If I am wrong on that I apologise. Perhaps Luther meant confess the real deal, you didn't just slam the door, you kicked the cat too, as it were! Now if you will be honest before God, you will be forgiven in Christ, but be careful next time you stroke the cat. If given in conjunction with the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit it could be pastorally astute.

Could be as even in the Old Testament it showed a difference between "unintentional" sins and willful sins. They had a sacrifice for unintentional sins, but no sacrifice covered willful sins - they killed them.

The New Testament seems to show that even sins committed while "walking in the light" are automatically forgiven as they would be unintentional and covered by the sacrifice of Jesus, His blood. 1 John 1:7 But Paul warns strongly against sinning willfully. Even to the point of returning to perdition. Hebrews 10:26-39

 

[dms1972]

Thats a difficult one, I have only seen Roman Catholic's attempt to define what deliberate sin means, though there may be protestant writers I haven't seen whom have written on it? Its an important distinction.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm a Catholic. "Calvinist" and "Arminian" are just not things we know anything about. To me, a Calvinist is somebody who follows the teachings of Calvin, and Armininians are those who follow some fellow named Arminius. What they actually taught, and how they differ? Couldn't tell you.

I knew nothing about them either until I spent years on forums. I find myself to be neither.

The church where I served is still thriving apparently. The problem as I see it is that the sheep believe and accept whatever the pastor believe/teaches without critically examining the scriptures for themselves. Thus there is no counter-balance or questioning of what is being taught. The church by and large has ceased being of the Berean mind-set where they each examined the scriptures for themselves.

I'm sorry to hear of your experience in the Bible study. My own experience has been one of being out in the wilderness - a lonely and unpopular place to be. Despite that, I could never go back to the institutional church based upon my convictions.

What about your home church? Aren't they like minded? I thought you were no longer out in the wilderness.