Protestant beliefs

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Thats a difficult one, I have only seen Roman Catholic's attempt to define what deliberate sin means, though there may be protestant writers I haven't seen whom have written on it? Its an important distinction.

I don't know of any writers who have written on the difference. In fact, that is the issue I got attacked on in the home Bible study I was in. It seems no one else has heard of such a notion. That's just what I've gotten out of reading the whole Bible, so I guess it is my own. I'm actually writing a book on it. I've published one book called The Hidden Mystery Behind Tongues. This one will be called The Hidden Mystery Behind Grace. And then a third in the trilogy will be called The Hidden Mystery Behind Faith. The first book had a unique view, and I expect these other two will too. But even though I'm in the minority - singularly so, doesn't mean it's wrong.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Regarding the names being given ... if those are the circles one is going to remain in ... it might be of interest to check into Derek Prince and Jack Hayford. I would wish for everyone the richness of the long spiritual traditions of Christianity going far back, such as found within the Philokalia. But if one is going to remain within only a particular group of modern teachers, those two are more to be recommended than some associated ones.

I went to Jack Hayford's church for years when I lived in California. I miss it terribly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
It seems to me that at 2 Corinthians 5:14 thru at least 2 Corinthians 7:1 Paul is speaking to the church who are ones that have already embraced belief in Christ. Therefore the word of reconciliation he speaks of is something beyond ones initial expression of faith. And the culmination of that word of reconciliation is what he describes at 2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Talk is cheap, even to God. It is not what one says that expresses faith in Christ. It is what one does.

A part of that process of reconciliation is to add to ones faith as Peter says: 2 Peter 1:5-11
5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
.

I love 2 Peter 1:5-11 progression of sanctification as I like to call it. It is like Paul's fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5. Thanks for posting.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I’d research a little those first two people / names. Doctrine and activities.

Hi again, you don't trust them? What about Andrew Womack? Do you know anything about him?
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I knew nothing about them either until I spent years on forums. I find myself to be neither,

Of course I've HEARD of Calvin, but to be able to compare him to some Arminius - just no clue. Perhaps somebody more skilled in these theologies could tell me whether Catholicism is Arminian or not. I know we're not Calvinistic, though I don't know why (other than the fact that it's obvious to us that drinking alcohol is not a sin, and we think that it's silly to say it is).
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't know of any writers who have written on the difference. In fact, that is the issue I got attacked on in the home Bible study I was in. It seems no one else has heard of such a notion. That's just what I've gotten out of reading the whole Bible, so I guess it is my own. I'm actually writing a book on it. I've published one book called The Hidden Mystery Behind Tongues. This one will be called The Hidden Mystery Behind Grace. And then a third in the trilogy will be called The Hidden Mystery Behind Faith. The first book had a unique view, and I expect these other two will too. But even though I'm in the minority - singularly so, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Catholics distinguish, as did Jesus and John, between minor sins and serious, or mortal sins. It's pretty much what you'd expect. Killing somebody is grave or mortal. Shouting something that would get you a "bless do not curse" edit by CF would be venial or minor.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Of course I've HEARD of Calvin, but to be able to compare him to some Arminius - just no clue. Perhaps somebody more skilled in these theologies could tell me whether Catholicism is Arminian or not. I know we're not Calvinistic, though I don't know why (other than the fact that it's obvious to us that drinking alcohol is not a sin, and we think that it's silly to say it is).

From what I know Catholics go to confession. Do you actually repent from those sins and turn away from doing them again? If yes, good (in my eyes). Or do you just say a few Hail Mary's or Our Fathers as I've heard you do as "penance," and then repeat the same sin?

A Calvinist would have an assurance of salvation, no matter how much they do the same sin. An Arminian would say they could lose their salvation if they didn't confess and repent.

Which best describes Catholics?
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I knew nothing about them either until I spent years on forums. I find myself to be neither.


What about your home church? Aren't they like minded? I thought you were no longer out in the wilderness.
Yes my house church (right now just another couple) is like-minded however it took me a long time to find other believers of like mind - who want to search the scriptures for themselves and not be dependent on someone else to teach it to them. It is still that way now when I speak with church friends from the past who don't understand why I don't go to church (the building). If that's the only paradigm they've ever known then house church is foreign to them and so I become different from them. Maybe even suspect and still in the wilderness? haha
So in our living rooms, we share our understanding and interpretations and draw our own conclusions but usually we end up being of the same mind. If we don't come to the same conclusion then we don't reprimand the other for believing differently but we maintain unity. What I've found over the years is that the gospel message consists of both belief (Jn 3:16) and obedience (Heb 5:9). All discipleship after one's conversion is built on that foundation. If one builds on the wrong foundation then discipleship and fellowship suffers. We are to encourage one another to fight the good fight and to finish the race.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Catholics distinguish, as did Jesus and John, between minor sins and serious, or mortal sins. It's pretty much what you'd expect. Killing somebody is grave or mortal. Shouting something that would get you a "bless do not curse" edit by CF would be venial or minor.

A Calvinist would say "sin is sin." No degrees, and all are forgiven, past, present and future.

An Arminian would say "sin is sin" also, I believe, but would say their past sins are forgiven, and sin no more, but if you do, repent.

I'm not Catholic but I also see a difference in sin. I don't call them as minor sins and serious sins, but between unintentional or willful. What about murder and hate. They are the same in 1 John 3. Or would you say hate is minor, and murder is serious?
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
From what I know Catholics go to confession. Do you actually repent from those sins and turn away from doing them again? If yes, good (in my eyes). Or do you just say a few Hail Mary's or Our Fathers as I've heard you do as "penance," and then repeat the same sin?

A Calvinist would have an assurance of salvation, no matter how much they do the same sin. An Arminian would say they could lose their salvation if they didn't confess and repent.

Which best describes Catholics?

I only go to confession when I really feel guilty about something I have done. We're supposed to go at least once a year. I don't. Part of the confession rite is that you tell the priest the last time you came to confession (which then includes the bit about not having come timely into the confession).

Confession, for me, has always been stressful and tearful. These are the things I am most embarrassed and disgusted by, the things that are the deep, ugly truths that nobody sees. They are the places where, were they thrown open to the world, people would rightly hate me or, the world being what it is, maybe they wouldn't, but they ought to. Lies, deceit, sexual immorality, all of the evil that I have done.

If I could turn back time, I would undo these things. But I can't. And they burden me. So finally I go to God and I admit the wrong and I ask for forgiveness.

The priest will talk about these things, and give what he thinks are words of encouragement or assistance. Sometimes they are really helpful. Other times they're not really, but I'm there to lay it all out in a structured manner before God, and the priest is experienced in drawing out not just the sins, but also their effects, and causes, and what drives them.

Then he pronounces the absolution. God forgives the sins, but it is good to hear it said aloud, with authority, by a priest. But also that means that that is done - it is past. I must not continue to dwell upon the past sin and pretend that it is still burdening me, as though I were the worst sinner who ever lived. That's pride and pretension. God has forgiven you, now YOU must also forgive you and stop dwelling on it. Your sins are not a bigger deal than they are. You are forgiven. Don't think you're so special that your sins are unforgiveable, and don't pretend that you are so special that your blemishes are especially bad and they make you, in particular, unforgivable. That is actually the sin of pride, vaunting yourself, even in your evil - you're not just a simple sinner, like everybody else, you're a VIRTUOUSO of sin, SO MUCH WORSE. No, really, you're not special in that regard. You're a garden variety sinner. You're not Dr. Mengele. You're forgiven - let it go.

Confession is cathartic, but it's also unpleasant. Who wants to reveal his inner darkness. One does not want to have to do it, and the fact that one feels compelled to itself acts as a brake on repeating those same acts. You've been forgiven, and that is reassuring, but what you did was still crappy, and you had to go tell somebody too - your desire not to get dirty like that again is strong (you know, that feeling of sin on you, how you feel unclean and you can't wash it off? Well, confession DOES wash that off and you don't feel it any more. When God touches you it cleanses you. Are you really going to do that again.)

For the most part I haven't repeated most of my sins again. And the ones I have not been able to stop - like a dog returning to its vomit - I admit have a grip on me that are an addiction, and I want to be free of them, but the demons come back.

Confession is a passionate time. You feel God in there. Most Catholics confess very little, but should do it.

The penances I've been given have mostly involved lingering in the sanctuary to pray over what we discussed, and to be thankful for forgiveness, and to pray to be healed and made whole and released from whatever grip sin has.

The only repetitive thing I've been given to do has been to say a prayer in the evening reminding me of my forgiveness and reminding me to be strong.

I would say that, of all of the Catholic sacraments, the most profoundly moving, terrifying and powerful is Confession. You feel God moving in you. You feel the dirt coming off. And you fully intend, by the time that is done, to never get dirty like that again. Mostly that sticks, except for the addictions, where your freewill is tainted by other forces. Then it is harder.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A Calvinist would say "sin is sin." No degrees, and all are forgiven, past, present and future.

An Arminian would say "sin is sin" also, I believe, but would say their past sins are forgiven, and sin no more, but if you do, repent.

I'm not Catholic but I also see a difference in sin. I don't call them as minor sins and serious sins, but between unintentional or willful. What about murder and hate. They are the same in 1 John 3. Or would you say hate is minor, and murder is serious?

Murder is obviously mortal. Hate, I suppose it matters what you hate and why.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Yes my house church (right now just another couple) is like-minded however it took me a long time to find other believers of like mind - who want to search the scriptures for themselves and not be dependent on someone else to teach it to them. It is still that way now when I speak with church friends from the past who don't understand why I don't go to church (the building). If that's the only paradigm they've ever known then house church is foreign to them and so I become different from them. Maybe even suspect and still in the wilderness? haha
So in our living rooms, we share our understanding and interpretations and draw our own conclusions but usually we end up being of the same mind. If we don't come to the same conclusion then we don't reprimand the other for believing differently but we maintain unity. What I've found over the years is that the gospel message consists of both belief (Jn 3:16) and obedience (Heb 5:9). All discipleship after one's conversion is built on that foundation. If one builds on the wrong foundation then discipleship and fellowship suffers. We are to encourage one another to fight the good fight and to finish the race.

That's good. When I was attacked, this verse in Proverbs 18:21 came to mind. "Life and death are in the power of the tongue..." And James 3:8 "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

I feel something died in me and cast me into the wilderness. I haven't been back to the Bible Study, or even to church.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I only go to confession when I really feel guilty about something I have done. We're supposed to go at least once a year. I don't. Part of the confession rite is that you tell the priest the last time you came to confession (which then includes the bit about not having come timely into the confession).

Confession, for me, has always been stressful and tearful. These are the things I am most embarrassed and disgusted by, the things that are the deep, ugly truths that nobody sees. They are the places where, were they thrown open to the world, people would rightly hate me or, the world being what it is, maybe they wouldn't, but they ought to. Lies, deceit, sexual immorality, all of the evil that I have done.

If I could turn back time, I would undo these things. But I can't. And they burden me. So finally I go to God and I admit the wrong and I ask for forgiveness.

The priest will talk about these things, and give what he thinks are words of encouragement or assistance. Sometimes they are really helpful. Other times they're not really, but I'm there to lay it all out in a structured manner before God, and the priest is experienced in drawing out not just the sins, but also their effects, and causes, and what drives them.

Then he pronounces the absolution. God forgives the sins, but it is good to hear it said aloud, with authority, by a priest. But also that means that that is done - it is past. I must not continue to dwell upon the past sin and pretend that it is still burdening me, as though I were the worst sinner who ever lived. That's pride and pretension. God has forgiven you, now YOU must also forgive you and stop dwelling on it. Your sins are not a bigger deal than they are. You are forgiven. Don't think you're so special that your sins are unforgiveable, and don't pretend that you are so special that your blemishes are especially bad and they make you, in particular, unforgivable. That is actually the sin of pride, vaunting yourself, even in your evil - you're not just a simple sinner, like everybody else, you're a VIRTUOUSO of sin, SO MUCH WORSE. No, really, you're not special in that regard. You're a garden variety sinner. You're not Dr. Mengele. You're forgiven - let it go.

Confession is cathartic, but it's also unpleasant. Who wants to reveal his inner darkness. One does not want to have to do it, and the fact that one feels compelled to itself acts as a brake on repeating those same acts. You've been forgiven, and that is reassuring, but what you did was still crappy, and you had to go tell somebody too - your desire not to get dirty like that again is strong (you know, that feeling of sin on you, how you feel unclean and you can't wash it off? Well, confession DOES wash that off and you don't feel it any more. When God touches you it cleanses you. Are you really going to do that again.)

For the most part I haven't repeated most of my sins again. And the ones I have not been able to stop - like a dog returning to its vomit - I admit have a grip on me that are an addiction, and I want to be free of them, but the demons come back.

Confession is a passionate time. You feel God in there. Most Catholics confess very little, but should do it.

The penances I've been given have mostly involved lingering in the sanctuary to pray over what we discussed, and to be thankful for forgiveness, and to pray to be healed and made whole and released from whatever grip sin has.

The only repetitive thing I've been given to do has been to say a prayer in the evening reminding me of my forgiveness and reminding me to be strong.

I would say that, of all of the Catholic sacraments, the most profoundly moving, terrifying and powerful is Confession. You feel God moving in you. You feel the dirt coming off. And you fully intend, by the time that is done, to never get dirty like that again. Mostly that sticks, except for the addictions, where your freewill is tainted by other forces. Then it is harder.

That was beautiful, thank you. I can relate to the never wanting to get dirty again.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Murder is obviously mortal. Hate, I suppose it matters what you hate and why.

I'm not talking about righteous indignation. Of course when we become born again we love what God loves and HATE what God hates. But that is hating sin, not people. What amazing love Jesus had when He told us to love our enemies. I wonder if He meant personal enemies, or false teachers or bad politics when you see the damage they are doing? Or is that covered by righteous indignation, like "be angry, but sin not"?

Good discussion.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course when we become born again we love what God loves and HATE what God hates.

Well, I guess I'm not really born again. I do still sense the distance between me and God, and I do still love some of the things that I know God doesn't want me to do. I struggle not to do them for his sake, not because I really hate those things. Frankly, I rather wish that God would change his mind about some of the more obvious ones. But he doesn't. I see some Christian Churches working hard to convince themselves that God has changed his mind - or didn't REALLY mean in the first place - that various sexual sins disgust him.

But I'm just not that good at lying to myself. I know what God wants. I know what I want. I know there's a distance, and that I'm not God. I agree that it would be BETTER if I did it his way. So I do, or try. But, for example, beautiful women are just that: beautiful women, and they awaken desire. I can brake the desire and not ACT on it - I'm married, etc. But to hate the desire and the various pleasant thoughts that come from it? That's not going to happen. I don't even want it to happen. I'm going to look, and I'm going to "commit adultery in my heart", and I'm not even going to confess that, because I don't have any intention of stopping doing that. What I'm not going to do is go and hit up the woman. I'm going to think impure thoughts and walk away.

That's not good enough.
I know that.
But that's the way I am. I don't believe people when they say they hate sin now. I think they are lying. I can't get inside their mind, of course, but I do not believe them.
I follow God and try to obey him, because I know he exists and I want to please him and follow him.
And I act a whole lot better now than I did in my 20s. Things I did then, I don't do. But I don't really hate those things. I see how they lead people into all sorts of trouble and bad consequences and broken hearts. But if I were back in my 20s, I'd probably risk it all again.

Born again Christians claim to be elevated into perfection in this regard. I don't try to follow them because I don't really believe what they say about that stuff is true. I think what I am recounting is a fundamental truth of mankind, and I think that Catholicism, with all of the grit of the barnyard all of it, is real, because it deals with me as I really am, not as some Platonic or Augustinian (or Pauline) ideal that I never was, won't become in this life, and don't really want to be: that would not be me. it would be a cardboard cutout of me.

I'm sure that the born agains would be insulted by the above, and it would confirm in them the superiority of their way and their greater closeness to God...that is, unless I am right and they are no different from me, really, down inside where nobody else can see. When a Jimmy Swaggart or a Jim Baker falls, I don't believe it's because they weren't really "Born Again", I think it's because being "born again" isn't all that they make it out to be.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
It seems to me that at 2 Corinthians 5:14 thru at least 2 Corinthians 7:1 Paul is speaking to the church who are ones that have already embraced belief in Christ. Therefore the word of reconciliation he speaks of is something beyond ones initial expression of faith. And the culmination of that word of reconciliation is what he describes at 2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Talk is cheap, even to God. It is not what one says that expresses faith in Christ. It is what one does.

A part of that process of reconciliation is to add to ones faith as Peter says: 2 Peter 1:5-11
5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
.
I beg to differ. One common problem we face, is that people think that the Gospel only needs to be preached once. In the words of Graeme Goldsworthy, we need to hear it everyday! And if you pay attention to Paul. That's exactly what he does. If not, then legalism or antinomianism creeps in.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Of course I've HEARD of Calvin, but to be able to compare him to some Arminius - just no clue. Perhaps somebody more skilled in these theologies could tell me whether Catholicism is Arminian or not. I know we're not Calvinistic, though I don't know why (other than the fact that it's obvious to us that drinking alcohol is not a sin, and we think that it's silly to say it is).
Yes, most of us would classify the Catholic position as Arminian. There are some differences, but it's close enough to be a useful description.

Historically there have been different Catholic schools of thought. Some (e.g. Aquinas) are close to Calvin. Here's a comparison of Calvin and Aquinas: Aquinas and Calvin on Predestination: Is There Any Common Ground? | Reformed Faith & Practice.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Well, I guess I'm not really born again. I do still sense the distance between me and God, and I do still love some of the things that I know God doesn't want me to do. I struggle not to do them for his sake, not because I really hate those things. Frankly, I rather wish that God would change his mind about some of the more obvious ones. But he doesn't. I see some Christian Churches working hard to convince themselves that God has changed his mind - or didn't REALLY mean in the first place - that various sexual sins disgust him.

But I'm just not that good at lying to myself. I know what God wants. I know what I want. I know there's a distance, and that I'm not God. I agree that it would be BETTER if I did it his way. So I do, or try. But, for example, beautiful women are just that: beautiful women, and they awaken desire. I can brake the desire and not ACT on it - I'm married, etc. But to hate the desire and the various pleasant thoughts that come from it? That's not going to happen. I don't even want it to happen. I'm going to look, and I'm going to "commit adultery in my heart", and I'm not even going to confess that, because I don't have any intention of stopping doing that. What I'm not going to do is go and hit up the woman. I'm going to think impure thoughts and walk away.

That's not good enough.
I know that.
But that's the way I am. I don't believe people when they say they hate sin now. I think they are lying. I can't get inside their mind, of course, but I do not believe them.
I follow God and try to obey him, because I know he exists and I want to please him and follow him.
And I act a whole lot better now than I did in my 20s. Things I did then, I don't do. But I don't really hate those things. I see how they lead people into all sorts of trouble and bad consequences and broken hearts. But if I were back in my 20s, I'd probably risk it all again.

Born again Christians claim to be elevated into perfection in this regard. I don't try to follow them because I don't really believe what they say about that stuff is true. I think what I am recounting is a fundamental truth of mankind, and I think that Catholicism, with all of the grit of the barnyard all of it, is real, because it deals with me as I really am, not as some Platonic or Augustinian (or Pauline) ideal that I never was, won't become in this life, and don't really want to be: that would not be me. it would be a cardboard cutout of me.

I'm sure that the born agains would be insulted by the above, and it would confirm in them the superiority of their way and their greater closeness to God...that is, unless I am right and they are no different from me, really, down inside where nobody else can see. When a Jimmy Swaggart or a Jim Baker falls, I don't believe it's because they weren't really "Born Again", I think it's because being "born again" isn't all that they make it out to be.

When I was married and would see a nice looking man, I would immediately shake my head hard, rattling my brains so to speak, and just that shaking made me dizzy enough to forget what I had just seen. That is how I avoided temptation. You might like to try that. I worked for me. Maybe it would for you too. The problem about temptation comes when you dwell on it, so shake that head of yours.

"Born again" is not a denomination. All Christians are born again, including Catholics. All it means is that they have received Christ's gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who makes their mortal spirit become alive and immortal.

What about the writings of Paul do you not agree with?

What I like about you is that you aren't afraid to be transparent. That is key.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's good. When I was attacked, this verse in Proverbs 18:21 came to mind. "Life and death are in the power of the tongue..." And James 3:8 "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

I feel something died in me and cast me into the wilderness. I haven't been back to the Bible Study, or even to church.
I understand. We tend not to carefully heed Jesus' words when he said that everyone will know that we are his disciples by our love for one another. Too many horror stories such as yours. Feel free to message me if you have more questions or want information. Blessings to you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What about the writings of Paul do you not agree with?

I agree with everything Paul said. I marvel at how illiterate and stubborn other Christians are at reading things there that he did not say, and clearly did not mean.

Paul is not the problem. Paul according to William is the problem. William speaks nonsense and quotes Paul as justification. And yep, Paul says that, apparently, right there. But then Paul says something else, somewhere else, that reverses the nonsense, and he doesn't tie it together, because Paul himself was written disparate letters to disparate people over time. He himself didn't have a folio of the "Epistles of Paul" to consult himself as we do. He had himself to consult, and himself changed and matured and became wiser over time. His letters span many years, and different circumstances.

Read in light of Jesus, Paul is a wonderful priest. But William (or whomever) reads Paul as though he were the Infallible Protestant Pope, and then what is said to come out of Paul's mouth if frequently offensive and really stupid.

Paul didn't mean that, but try convincing somebody who has built a theology on that?

My view is this: Jesus was God incarnate, and he said plenty. The Father said "Listen to HIM", and He said "Follow me" and "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't keep my commandments?"

Life is short, and there is not enough time to do everything. So my Bible study simply goes straight to Jesus and really focuses on every word HE says. And all of my arguments that quote the Bible cite Jesus.

I'm a lawyer. If I am writing an argument and there are a bunch of cases on a matter, some from the Supreme Court right on point, others from lower courts or state courts that are either on topic or talk about the topic, I'm not going to be quoting all of those cases. I'm going to keep it tight and just quote the Supreme Court. Why? Because the Supreme Court is superior in authority to all of those other courts, and to all other courts. Those other courts may be in different jurisdictions, and their decisions may have been overruled later by the Supreme Court. I keep it to the point and cite the highest binding authority. Everything below that is subsumed.

It's always easy to have a Biblical conversation with me. Quote Jesus or, in the Old Testament, YHWH, and you have authority I respect. Start quoting Paul, or John, or some Psalm, and I'm going to quote Jesus or YHWH in reply, and I'm going to pick at the quotation of the lesser authority.

When somebody asserts that Paul's writings have the same authority as Jesus' own words, I reply: that's idolatry. The Bible is a book, not a God-maker. Paul is not God, he's a sinner, a man, and his words cannot override the words of Jesus. Not ever. Men are not equal to God.

Then people fight with me endlessly, but I've already lost interest in the argument and know that I'm dealing with somebody lost. I also know I can't lead them out of the swamp.

I'll always really debate, with Scripture, those who wish, but the range of Scripture that I will use is the most high Scripture; the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God. And I won't accept that Scripture not spoken directly by God has the same authority, because it clearly doesn't on its own terms, obviously.

Paul? He's great. Love him.
What people do with Paul? Generate great billowing clouds of error. Jesus was so much clearer, and as God has so much more authority, we should stick to him when we're trying to figure something out that is in contention.

That's my deal with Paul. It's really with my living interlocutor who is misusing Paul, treating Paul as though he were some sort of infallible Pope. Paul himself would be pretty horrified at that. I find it annoying and a discussion ender.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0