Romans 14 settles the whole debate

[EastCoastRemnant]

Acts 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts,

The verses I quoted had to do with days they worshipped at the temple.

What does "day by day" and "first day of the week" mean?

Answer the questions please.

Reading the above verse in the English does not say what you are purporting it to... lets use some grammar we all learned in school. The use of the comma here shows us that the "attending the temple together and breaking bread" is a parenthetical element and is not necessary for the sentence to convey it's meaning... "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts". To further illustrate this lets write the sentence this way. "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes."

To Hark's suggestion, lets look at the meaning of the word translated "day by day" or as it is rendered in the KJV "daily". It is the word kata and nowhere in the description does it support the idea of sequential days or even any day for that matter...

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

OP QUOTE="Daniel Marsh, post: 70496491, member: 378377"]Romans 14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Don’t Criticize Others
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food, but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.[/QUOTE
Yahweh's Word makes it seem so simple (and Yahweh created all things simple - man corrupted everything) ....
So what then shall anyone do ?
Trust Yahweh, keep ongoing faith in Him and rely totally on Him.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"Answer " according to who? For who ? For what reason ? To argue? To justify something else ?
I don't think so.

I guess your sources are useless.

The text from Acts shows that Jewish Christians were kicked out of Rome at the time that Paul wrote them.

References to an expulsion of Jews from Rome by the Roman Emperor Claudius, who was in office AD 41-54, appear in the Acts of the Apostles (18:2), and in the writings of Roman historians Suetonius (c. AD 69 – c. AD 122), Cassius Dio (c. AD 150 – c. 235) and fifth-century Christian author Paulus Orosius. Scholars generally agree that these references refer to the same incident.[1][2]
The exact date is uncertain. The maximal time window for the expulsion of Jews from Rome is from January AD 41 until January AD 53. More detailed estimates such as those based on the AD 49 date by Orosius or the reduction of the AD 53 upper limit due to Proconsul Gallio's health are possible but controversial.
There were at least two expulsions of Jews from Rome before this event. In 139 BC the Jews were expelled after being accused of aggressive missionary efforts. Then in AD 19 Tiberius once again expelled Jews from the city for similar reasons.

...
footnotes:
1 Rainer Riesner "Pauline Chronology" in Stephen Westerholm The Blackwell Companion to Paul (May 16, 2011) ISBN 1405188448 pp.13-14

2 Andreas J. Köstenberger, L. Scott Kellum, The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown: An Introduction to the New Testament (2009) ISBN 978-0-8054-4365-3 p. 110, 400

 

[Daniel Marsh]

OP QUOTE="Daniel Marsh, post: 70496491, member: 378377"]Romans 14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Don’t Criticize Others
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food, but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.[/QUOTE
Yahweh's Word makes it seem so simple (and Yahweh created all things simple - man corrupted everything) ....
So what then shall anyone do ?
Trust Yahweh, keep ongoing faith in Him and rely totally on Him.

It was those who you claim corrupted everything who preserved the Scriptures --- Why should one even trust the Bible, if they were creating what someone called frauds and you call corruptions? Since, we do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, by your claims there is no reason to believe the Bible is true.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Reading the above verse in the English does not say what you are purporting it to... lets use some grammar we all learned in school. The use of the comma here shows us that the "attending the temple together and breaking bread" is a parenthetical element and is not necessary for the sentence to convey it's meaning... "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts". To further illustrate this lets write the sentence this way. "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes."

To Hark's suggestion, lets look at the meaning of the word translated "day by day" or as it is rendered in the KJV "daily". It is the word kata and nowhere in the description does it support the idea of sequential days or even any day for that matter...

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

Both "day by day" and daily means they met in the Temple everyday for worship and fellowship. Nice try thou. Agape, Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

You did mention them in some of your posts (at least one).
There is a lot of research always intended to strengthen power separate and apart from God and God's Word.
Those who trust that kind of research, do not yet trust Yahweh nor yet are able thus to walk on the narrow road of life that Jesus says few find. (many do walk in much research, as Jesus says, "man's" research, opposed to Him) ....

I like to read that research, you can mail it to me at Daniel Marsh

 

[Almost there]

Both "day by day" and daily means they met in the Temple everyday for worship and fellowship. Nice try thou. Agape, Daniel

I think your post touches on what I'm trying to say in my tag line. I think we tend to get wrapped around the axle sometimes when we argue what the bible meant, EXACTLY.

A guy who ran worship serviced in a large Louisville church that had a lot of members that were professors at a local Christ centered university once told me, "I've noticed that, generally speaking, the more someone understands the bible and how it came about, the less sure they are on their stance on all but the most core principles of Christianity.

I've noticed that in the small churches around rural KY where I live. There are a lot of people here that are staunch church goers but don't really understand the bible much. Pretty much on any issue, if you disagree with them they get pretty hot, pretty fast. Not all, of course. But on both sides, it is a pretty accurate rule. Kinda like the one that says men are taller than women. There are exceptions, but still...

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"Answer " according to who? For who ? For what reason ? To argue? To justify something else ?
I don't think so.

Those are perfectly good translations --- it seems you treat the Bible like LDS --- you only like it if it is translated the way you want it to read. There are many well study Linguistic Scholars producing outstanding translations based on up to date research.

So, answer the questions already.

Roberston, Word Pictures on Greek NT

Acts 20:7

Upon the first day of the week (en de miai twn sabbatwn). The cardinal miai used here for the ordinal prwth ( Mark 16:9 ) like the Hebrew ehadh as in Mark 16:2 ; Matthew 28:1 ; Luke 24:1 ; John 20:1 and in harmony with the Koin idiom (Robertson, Grammar, p. 671). Either the singular ( Mark 16:9 ) sabbatou or the plural sabbaton as here was used for the week (sabbath to sabbath). For the first time here we have services mentioned on the first day of the week though in 1 Corinthians 16:2 it is implied by the collections stored on that day. In Revelation 1:10 the Lord's day seems to be the day of the week on which Jesus rose from the grave. Worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh naturally arose in Gentile churches, though John 20:26 seems to mean that from the very start the disciples began to meet on the first (or eighth) day. But liberty was allowed as Paul makes plain in Romans 14:5 . When we were gathered together (sunhgmenwn hmwn). Genitive absolute, perfect passive participle of sunagw, to gather together, a formal meeting of the disciples. See this verb used for gatherings of disciples in Acts 4:31 ; Acts 11:26 ; Acts 14:27 ; Acts 15:6 Acts 15:30 ; Acts 19:7 Acts 19:8 ; 1 Corinthians 5:4 . In Hebrews 10:25 the substantive episunagwghn is used for the regular gatherings which some were already neglecting. It is impossible for a church to flourish without regular meetings even if they have to meet in the catacombs as became necessary in Rome. In Russia today the Soviets are trying to break up conventicles of Baptists. They probably met on our Saturday evening, the beginning of the first day at sunset. So these Christians began the day (Sunday) with worship. But, since this is a Gentile community, it is quite possible that Luke means our Sunday evening as the time when this meeting occurs, and the language in John 20:19 "it being evening on that day the first day of the week" naturally means the evening following the day, not the evening preceding the day. To break bread (klasai arton). First aorist active infinitive of purpose of klaw. The language naturally bears the same meaning as in John 2:42 , the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper which usually followed the Agaph. See 1 Corinthians 10:16 . The time came, when the Agaph was no longer observed, perhaps because of the abuses noted in 1 Corinthians 11:20 . Rackham argues that the absence of the article with bread here and its presence (ton arton) in verse 1 Corinthians 11 shows that the Agaph is ] referred to in verse 1 Corinthians 7 and the Eucharist in verse 1 Corinthians 11 , but not necessarily so because ton arton may merely refer to arton in verse 1 Corinthians 7 . At any rate it should be noted that Paul, who conducted this service, was not a member of the church in Troas, but only a visitor. Discoursed (dielegeto). Imperfect middle because he kept on at length. Intending (mellw). Being about to, on the point of. On the morrow (th epaurion). Locative case with hmerai understood after the adverb epaurion. If Paul spoke on our Saturday evening, he made the journey on the first day of the week (our Sunday) after sunrise. If he spoke on our Sunday evening, then he left on our Monday morning. Prolonged his speech (Pareteinen ton logon). Imperfect active (same form as aorist) of parateinw, old verb to stretch beside or lengthwise, to prolong. Vivid picture of Paul's long sermon which went on and on till midnight (mecri mesonuktiou). Paul's purpose to leave early next morning seemed to justify the long discourse. Preachers usually have some excuse for the long sermon which is not always clear to the exhausted audience.

John 20:1

Now on the first day of the week (th de miai twn sabbatwn). Locative case of time when. Both Mark ( Mark 16:2 ) and Luke ( Luke 24:1 ) have this very idiom of the cardinal th miai, instead of the usual ordinal th prwth (first), an idiom common in the papyri and in the modern Greek (Robertson, Grammar, p. 671). In all three instances also we have the genitive plural twn sabbatwn for "the week" as in Acts 20:7 . The singular sabbaton also occurs for "the week" as in Luke 18:12 ; Mark 16:9 . Cometh Mary Magdalene (Maria h Magdalhnh ercetai). Vivid historical present. Mary Magdalene is not to be confounded with Mary of Bethany. While it was yet dark (skotia eti oush). Genitive absolute. For skotia see John 6:17 ; Matthew 10:27 . Mark ( Mark 16:2 ) says the sun was risen on their actual arrival. She started from the house while still dark. Taken away (hrmenon). Perfect passive participle of airw, predicate accusative in apposition with ton liqon.

Mark 16

When the sun was risen (anateilanto tou hliou). Genitive absolute, aorist participle, though some manuscripts read anatellonto, present participle. Luke 24:1 has it "at early dawn" (orqrou baqeo) and John 20:1 "while it was yet dark." It was some two miles from Bethany to the tomb. Mark himself gives both notes of time, "very early" (lian prwi), "when the sun was risen." Probably they started while it was still dark and the sun was coming up when they arrived at the tomb. All three mention that it was on the first day of the week, our Sunday morning when the women arrive. The body of Jesus was buried late on Friday before the sabbath (our Saturday) which began at sunset. This is made clear as a bell by Luke 23:54 "and the sabbath drew on." The women rested on the sabbath ( Luke 23:56 ).

I Cor 16

Upon the first day of the week (kata mian sabbatou). For the singular sabbatou (sabbath) for week see Luke 18:12 ; Mark 16:9 . For the use of the cardinal mian in sense of ordinal prwthn after Hebrew fashion in LXX (Robertson, Grammar, p. 672) as in Mark 16:2 ; Luke 24:1 ; Acts 20:7 . Distributive use of kata also. Lay by him in store (par eautwi tiqetw qhsaurizwn). By himself, in his home. Treasuring it (cf. Matthew 6:19 . for qhsaurizw). Have the habit of doing it, tiqetw (present imperative).

Acts 2:46

With one accord in the temple (omoqumadon en twi ierwi). See on Acts 1:14 for omoqumadon. They were still worshipping in the temple for no breach had yet come between Christians and Jews. Daily they were here and daily breaking bread at home (kat oikon) which looks like the regular meal. They did take their food (metelambanon troph). Imperfect tense again and clearly referring to the regular meals at home. Does it refer also to the possible agapai or to the Lord's Supper afterwards as they had common meals "from house to house" (kat oikon)? We know there were local churches in the homes where they had "worship rooms," the church in the house. At any rate it was "with singleness" (apelothti) of heart. The word occurs only here in the N.T., though a late Koin word (papyri). It comes from apelh, free from rock (pelleu is stony ground), smooth. The old form was apeleia.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

How many Christians were in Rome at the time Paul wrote them?
How many were Gentile?
How many were Jewish?
Where does the kicking out of Jewish Christians occur?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Reading the above verse in the English does not say what you are purporting it to... lets use some grammar we all learned in school. The use of the comma here shows us that the "attending the temple together and breaking bread" is a parenthetical element and is not necessary for the sentence to convey it's meaning... "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts". To further illustrate this lets write the sentence this way. "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes."

To Hark's suggestion, lets look at the meaning of the word translated "day by day" or as it is rendered in the KJV "daily". It is the word kata and nowhere in the description does it support the idea of sequential days or even any day for that matter...

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

Who is Hart and what is your source, please. I do not recognize it. Maybe get in habit of posting a link to source which I try to do.

 

[HARK!]

To Hark's suggestion, lets look at the meaning of the word translated "day by day" or as it is rendered in the KJV "daily". It is the word kata and nowhere in the description does it support the idea of sequential days or even any day for that matter...

Actually I was referring to his faulty translation of "first day of the week," with regard to the Sabbath, back in post #88.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Lexicon :: Strong's G4521 - sabbaton

σάββατον
Transliteration
sabbaton
Pronunciation
sä'b-bä-ton (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Of Hebrew origin שַׁבָּת (H7676)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:1,989

KJV Translation Count — Total: 68x
The KJV translates Strong's G4521 in the following manner: sabbath day (37x), sabbath (22x), week (9x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
   1. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
      
      
   2. a single sabbath, sabbath day
2. seven days, a week

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)



Lexicon :: Strong's G4521 - sabbaton

σάββατον





Transliteration
sabbaton



Pronunciation
sä'b-bä-ton (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun



Root Word (Etymology)
Of Hebrew origin שַׁבָּת (H7676)




Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:1,989






KJV Translation Count — Total: 68x
The KJV translates Strong's G4521 in the following manner: sabbath day (37x), sabbath (22x), week (9x).




Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
   1. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
      
      
   2. a single sabbath, sabbath day
2. seven days, a week

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)





This verse isn't even related to the Sabbath.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it seems you treat the Bible like LDS --- you only like it if it is translated the way you want it to read.

This is a false testimony of yours, or just plain false analogy or observation.
I don't think you are trying at all to bear false witness, but it is in that direction,
based on your false conclusion here.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I think your post touches on what I'm trying to say in my tag line. I think we tend to get wrapped around the axle sometimes when we argue what the bible meant, EXACTLY.

A guy who ran worship serviced in a large Louisville church that had a lot of members that were professors at a local Christ centered university once told me, "I've noticed that, generally speaking, the more someone understands the bible and how it came about, the less sure they are on their stance on all but the most core principles of Christianity.

I've noticed that in the small churches around rural KY where I live. There are a lot of people here that are staunch church goers but don't really understand the bible much. Pretty much on any issue, if you disagree with them they get pretty hot, pretty fast. Not all, of course. But on both sides, it is a pretty accurate rule. Kinda like the one that says men are taller than women. There are exceptions, but still...

That sounds true friend. Because one can not see your face in text, I seek to be polite with everyone. I also seek to stand on the shoulders of outstanding scholars even thou my IQ once was 170, I keep getting dumber. The more I have discussions with Christians the less I think We are right on anything.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I guess your sources are useless.

The text from Acts shows that Jewish Christians were kicked out of Rome at the time that Paul wrote them.

Is this an example of your "warped sense of humor" in your warning sign ?

I didn't see anyone say the Jewish Christians were not kicked out of Rome ,
in any post on this thread (though I have not read all of the posts).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Actually I was referring to his faulty translation of "first day of the week," with regard to the Sabbath, back in post #88.

Acts 20:7 is related to one of the days they came together to worship which is what the Sabbath is all about. Using strongs alone leads to word study fallacies like you demonstrated. Please, answer honestly the questions I have asked throughout this thread.

 

[HARK!]

This is a false testimony of yours, or just plain false analogy or observation.
I don't think you are trying at all to bear false witness, but it is in that direction,
based on your false conclusion here.

Innuendo is a form of lashon hara.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Reading the above verse in the English does not say what you are purporting it to... lets use some grammar we all learned in school. The use of the comma here shows us that the "attending the temple together and breaking bread" is a parenthetical element and is not necessary for the sentence to convey it's meaning... "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts". To further illustrate this lets write the sentence this way. "And day by day they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes."

To Hark's suggestion, lets look at the meaning of the word translated "day by day" or as it is rendered in the KJV "daily". It is the word kata and nowhere in the description does it support the idea of sequential days or even any day for that matter...

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

There are no commas in greek, thus an argument over such is an error.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I also seek to stand on the shoulders of outstanding scholars

This explains a lot of the troubles .... yes, very clear now.

I keep getting dumber. The more I have discussions with Christians the less I think We are right on anything.

So this is no surprise....

Yahweh blesses (because it is His Good Pleasure to do so) all who trust in Him,
and curses all who trust in scholars ..... a hard, sometimes very hard , or even impossible(for man), lesson to learn....

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This is a false testimony of yours, or just plain false analogy or observation.
I don't think you are trying at all to bear false witness, but it is in that direction,
based on your false conclusion here.

It is just my humble opinion of the way I see you or someone else in this thread operating. Sorry if it is not you who says that "day by day" does not mean the same as "daily".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There are no commas in greek, thus an argument over such is an error.

Without even seeing the argument you seem to be referring to,
can you see the error plain as day in your post quoted here ?

The error is about the wrong explanation of God's Word,
with or without the comma.