Liberal Christians

[Cheylynn]

I wonder if this is a similar scenario that Paul came to in his letter to the Corinthians,
1 Cor 1:11-13
For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
We so easily get off track I believe and this is a good example.
Jesus, who is our ‘leader’ said these words: John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
How is it that we fight, argue, defend for the kingdom(s) of this world – it is none of our business. “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”’ says Jesus. Matt 22:21. Our business is about our Father’s business. This is a classic example of why we look no different than the world!
What is our business:
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[a] This is the first commandment.[b] 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:30-31

 

[Violet Edge]

That's weird, I didn't find any of the posts so far to be unreasonable.

I was just implying that Christians with liberal views who are against conservative views are perhaps acting unreasonable. Especially since conservative values and morals are coherent with the scripture. Liberal, on the other hand.. are not.

 

[Grip Docility]

hmm okay thanks for commenting the scripture is God's word.. and God's word is not wrong. can you expand more on how you justify this?

You have managed to highlight the most devisive topics in scripture.

John 1:1-3 ... “LOGOS”... “Memra”

When you call “Scripture” “God’s Word”... do you believe that The Bible became Flesh?

The Word is THE Eternal Son of God!

As for liberal and conservative views... Christianity is not a political view!

Even holding to biblical inerrancy, I assure you that liberal application of forgiveness and Love that transcends all human stupidity is not only prescribed by Jesus Christ, but flat out demanded... in His parables...

If a person thinks God is a cruel master, they will bury the gospel and single out certain types of sin as unredeemable.

If a person is forgiven in the depths of hopeless sin that won’t shake loose, that person tends to extend grace to ... ALL that Jesus died for!

That’s Hebrews 2:9 ... ALL Humanity!

Love our brother? All are our siblings by Jesus Christ’s Death!

As for rational understanding of the world around us... there’s this thing called individuality that Jesus Christ clearly values, since it was part of the Creation Kit...

Individuality takes understanding and respect!

How far did Jesus go for us? He traversed Eternity to the Finite. He, the Perfect, trusted Imperfect us to hold and raise Him as a baby! He, the Perfect, rubbed shoulders with us the Imperfect!

He that knew no sin, became sin, so we the Wicked and Godless, could be declared Sinless!

He DIED for US!

Name a sin and issue and tell me that we should limit Love towards humanity in any way shape or form, then tell me why anyone is better than God so much that they can judge and condemn what HE Died for.

Something like that.

 

[Grip Docility]

I was just implying that Christians with liberal views who are against conservative views are perhaps acting unreasonable. Especially since conservative values and morals are coherent with the scripture. Liberal, on the other hand.. are not.

Are Cesar and God the same?

Are politics and religion Christianity?

I always thought God, aka, Jesus... transcended All Human ideas!

Perhaps politicizing Jesus is the worst thing that has ever happened to the Gospel?

 

[Violet Edge]

Here's the problem, in a nutshell: the politics that would most closely align with Christ would be these:

Feed the poor = support welfare
Heal the sick = support universal medical care, free for those who cannot pay.
Provide for the widow and orphan = Social Security and disability and welfare benefits.
Defend the innocent, turn the other cheek, forgive and redeem = oppose the death penalty
Do not kill = oppose war
Do not kill = oppose abortion (and provide welfare for the poor babies who were not aborted, and their mothers, and fathers also if unable to care for them).
Forgive debt = forgive debt.
Marriage is a sacred bond = no divorce, except for adultery; no remarriage after divorce.
Eschew sexual immorality, and lead away from temptation = no porn, no regularization of fornication, no "gay" marriage, no public celebration or recognition of homosexuality at all: it is shameful and there is nothing to be proud of (but don't legally punish it).
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you = no slavery, control prisons so they are not violent places for inmates.

Neither political party is anything like that.

American "liberals" do not want any sort of legal or social restrictions on sexuality.
American "conservatives" categorically oppose welfare.
Americans do not want to give up foreign empire and the war that inevitable comes from having one.
Americans do not want to give up on harsh criminal laws, long imprisonment under bitter conditions. Americans do not want to turn the other cheek, or forgive, or do unto others (kindly) if they hate the others.
Americans do want to judge.

Essentially, Americans, conservatives and liberals, want to be Americans, not followers of Christ, but they want to be followers of Christ also. They want to have their cake and eat it to.

So what that means is that Americans support about 33% of Christ's message, and oppose the other 66%, and yell at the other kind of Christian American for the parts that each doesn't like.

Truth is, to have a political system that fit Christ's commandments, you would have to have a Swedish social welfare state, with Latin American abortion and gay marriage laws, and the marriage laws of the Catholic Church.

Every American finds aspects of Christ's law eminently hateable and unacceptable, but very, very, very few Christian Americans will ever admit that. Instead, they'll judge what the other guy is doing wrong, but make exceptions and allowances for the parts of Christ's message they don't like.

Most Americans hate Jesus' law of divorce and remarriage, which is that you can't divorce except for the other partners adultery, and you can't remarry at all. And you can't have sex outside of marriage.

Conservatives correctly despise homosexual behavior and treat gay marriage as a mockery and a travesty. But they don't even hear Jesus when he says that heterosexual remarriage after divorce is all adultery. They hate Jesus when it comes to that, because it means that Jesus commands you to stay married, and if you divorce, to be celibate for the rest of your ex-spouse's life.

American Christians support the third of Christ's message they like, and oppose the other 2/3rds, and become very angry when you point it out to them.

okay, I agree with some of this. BUT I disagree with the whole "welfare" statement. The bible says, in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, that "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: 'The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.'" We cannot just hand poorer people our money if they are not working hard. Life takes hard work, things should not be handed to people.. (with few exceptions, obviously).

Also, the part where you said: "American Christians support the third of Christ's message they like, and oppose the other 2/3rds, and become very angry when you point it out to them".. even if it was true, why would we as a society allow gay marriage? You said that "Conservatives correctly despise homosexual behavior and treat gay marriage as a mockery and a travesty.But they don't even hear Jesus when he says that heterosexual remarriage after divorce is all adultery.". So, like I said, if we have the choice to decide if more sin is allowed into our world by gay marriage, then why would we, as Christians, support that?

so i still don't see how liberal beliefs can support Christianity.

 

[Celticroots]

I agree with your above post except for the "self sufficient" part. I believe in being as self sufficient and self reliant as we can but at the same time we need to realize God is our Helper and we actually are to seek His help with all matters. He has a plan and in order for us to follow it, we need His help to do so.

As someone with a disability I disagree about the self-sufficient part. I am high functioning but am on SSI and know I will never be able to work a full time job and make enough to support myself. What happened to make me the way I am was completely out of my control.

I am around people with various disabilities during a day program I attend. Some are high functioning like me but need support in certain areas. Others are very low functioning and are unable to make basic decisions like what to have for lunch. Those people are not going to ever be self-sufficient and will likely live in a group home after their parents die. I think it is vital to have programs and other options in place for people who cannot support themselves.

There are communities where people with disabilities can live and receive help with tasks. I am looking into one of those.

Others end up with a disability that leaves them in need of support after an accident or serious illness. That could be any one of us. I count my blessings that I am able to do what I can.

I will never be able to support myself fully, but I do trust God to guide me and that He has a plan for me. Which includes living in a place where I can be as independent as possible yet receive the help I need.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Pro 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy. The argument that more sin to forgive receives more grace and mercy from the Lord is foolishness. Matt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[Violet Edge]

You have managed to highlight the most devisive topics in scripture.

John 1:1-3 ... “LOGOS”... “Memra”

When you call “Scripture” “God’s Word”... do you believe that The Bible became Flesh?

The Word is THE Eternal Son of God!

As for liberal and conservative views... Christianity is not a political view!

Even holding to biblical inerrancy, I assure you that liberal application of forgiveness and Love that transcends all human stupidity is not only prescribed by Jesus Christ, but flat out demanded... in His parables...

If a person thinks God is a cruel master, they will bury the gospel and single out certain types of sin as unredeemable.

If a person is forgiven in the depths of hopeless sin that won’t shake loose, that person tends to extend grace to ... ALL that Jesus died for!

That’s Hebrews 2:9 ... ALL Humanity!

Love our brother? All are our siblings by Jesus Christ’s Death!

As for rational understanding of the world around us... there’s this thing called individuality that Jesus Christ clearly values, since it was part of the Creation Kit...

Individuality takes understanding and respect!

How far did Jesus go for us? He traversed Eternity to the Finite. He, the Perfect, trusted Imperfect us to hold and raise Him as a baby! He, the Perfect, rubbed shoulders with us the Imperfect!

He that knew no sin, became sin, so we the Wicked and Godless, could be declared Sinless!

He DIED for US!

Name a sin and issue and tell me that we should limit Love towards humanity in any way shape or form, then tell me why anyone is better than God so much that they can judge and condemn what HE Died for.

Something like that.

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I suggested that liberal believes do not support Christianity, but conservative beliefs, morals, values, and standards, do support Christianity.

Yes, like you said, the "liberal application of forgiveness and Love that transcends all human stupidity is not only prescribed by Jesus Christ, but flat out demanded... in His parables..." BUT Jesus does not say to support and praise these sins, such as homosexuality. Jesus tells us to love the person, not the sin. So, by upholding to liberal beliefs, you are therefore not following according to scripture. We should not (like you said) "understand" and "respect" the person's sin. Liberalism supports these sins, as a Christian, we should oppose these sins in our world. don't you agree?

 

[Violet Edge]

Are Cesar and God the same?

Are politics and religion Christianity?

I always thought God, aka, Jesus... transcended All Human ideas!

Perhaps politicizing Jesus is the worst thing that has ever happened to the Gospel?

perhaps you misunderstood my posting?

 

[Vicomte13]

okay, I agree with some of this. BUT I disagree with the whole "welfare" statement. The bible says, in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, that "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: 'The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.'" We cannot just hand poorer people our money if they are not working hard. Life takes hard work, things should not be handed to people.. (with few exceptions, obviously).

So, that's how you're going to disregard Jesus: with a sentence of Paul. You're also disregarding the whole structure of law that God gave the Hebrews demanding a tithe for care of the poor, and imposing the forgiveness of debt, even the release of slaves.

When Jesus gave the parable of those who didn't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc - the sheep and the goats - everything that God said, both testaments, about the forgiveness of debts, and provision of the poor: all of it on the asheap: Paul uber alles!

Yep, that's what conservative Christians do, to justify defying God regarding money.
This is where conservatism hates Jesus and grasps at straws to avoid it.

The Ayn Randian atheists, at least, admit to their selfish instincts and call it survival of the fittest. But conservative Christians of a certain politically dominant type pretend that God did not command structured charity.

Nobody can stop you from doing this or believing it. But it's not what YHWH said, and it's not what Christ said.

 

[Grip Docility]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I suggested that liberal believes do not support Christianity, but conservative beliefs, morals, values, and standards, do support Christianity.

Yes, like you said, the "liberal application of forgiveness and Love that transcends all human stupidity is not only prescribed by Jesus Christ, but flat out demanded... in His parables..." BUT Jesus does not say to support and praise these sins, such as homosexuality. Jesus tells us to love the person, not the sin. So, by upholding to liberal beliefs, you are therefore not following according to scripture. We should not (like you said) "understand" and "respect" the person's sin. Liberalism supports these sins, as a Christian, we should oppose these sins in our world. don't you agree?

 

[Violet Edge]

love this song. what are you implying tho?... that we should promote and encourage sin? hmm

 

[Violet Edge]

So, that's how you're going to disregard Jesus: with a sentence of Paul. You're also disregarding the whole structure of law that God gave the Hebrews demanding a tithe for care of the poor, and imposing the forgiveness of debt, even the release of slaves.

When Jesus gave the parable of those who didn't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc - the sheep and the goats - everything that God said, both testaments, about the forgiveness of debts, and provision of the poor: all of it on the asheap: Paul uber alles!

Yep, that's what conservative Christians do, to justify defying God regarding money.
This is where conservatism hates Jesus and grasps at straws to avoid it.

The Ayn Randian atheists, at least, admit to their selfish instincts and call it survival of the fittest. But conservative Christians of a certain politically dominant type pretend that God did not command structured charity.

Nobody can stop you from doing this or believing it. But it's not what YHWH said, and it's not what Christ said.

Firstly, where in the Bible does it say that it is okay to steal from citizens (taxes) to provide welfare for the people who do not want to work?
And secondly, you state that "conservatism hates Jesus". how can you assume such a rational statement? ALL Christians despite their political briefs should LOVE Jesus. Clearly you misunderstand my post where I suggest that conservative views support Christianity more than liberal views do.

 

[Violet Edge]

As someone with a disability I disagree about the self-sufficient part. I am high functioning but am on SSI and know I will never be able to work a full time job and make enough to support myself. What happened to make me the way I am was completely out of my control.

I am around people with various disabilities during a day program I attend. Some are high functioning like me but need support in certain areas. Others are very low functioning and are unable to make basic decisions like what to have for lunch. Those people are not going to ever be self-sufficient and will likely live in a group home after their parents die. I think it is vital to have programs and other options in place for people who cannot support themselves.

There are communities where people with disabilities can live and receive help with tasks. I am looking into one of those.

Others end up with a disability that leaves them in need of support after an accident or serious illness. That could be any one of us. I count my blessings that I am able to do what I can.

I will never be able to support myself fully, but I do trust God to guide me and that He has a plan for me. Which includes living in a place where I can be as independent as possible yet receive the help I need.

Absolutely. This is what I meant when I said "Life takes hard work, things should not be handed to people.. (with few exceptions, obviously)." A disability is totally out of your control and it is a wonderful blessing that society has resources for people with disabilities, also welfare for those who are not self sufficient and in need.
I was directing that post to fully capable and self sufficient citizens who are lazy and choose not to work - in most cases those are the people who are requesting welfare.

 

[Grip Docility]

love this song. what are you implying tho?... that we should promote and encourage sin? hmm

Is Christ a promoter of sin? No!

Did Jesus die while we were yet sinners? Yes!

Did Jesus politicaly rally against what sins were considered more sinful than others? No!

Did Jesus redeem the unredeemable? Yes!

Is the Law how Sin is judged? Yes.

James 2:10

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Me too (except for the age. I'm still an immature 40-something!) I thought I'd be getting more conservative as I got older, but it seems to be working in reverse on me. Most of my friends turned out likewise, oddly enough.

So according to what you see described in the NT, what is required in heart and belief to become a Christian, and would your moral views conflate with what NT believers such as Paul believed?

What if any would you object to about basic Christian beliefs such as stated in the Nicene Creed?

 

[Albion]

BUT God called upon Kings and rulers to enforce and carry into practice his laws. He did not release men with actual political authority from the duty to obey him and carry out those laws. .

No, but the issue here didn't concern that select group but, rather, each and every individual Christian.

 

[hedrick]

I'm uncomfortable responding to all of this in Christian Advice. CA isn't supposed to have doctrinal debates, and defending most of the items in the OP is permitted only in the liberal group. I'm liberal because of Scripture, but I don't think an explanation of this is permitted here.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Don't have much time at the moment but suffice it to say for now that I started out as a fundamentalist. Time, experience and education showed me that regarding the Bible as inerrant or to be understood literally was a mistake. Once the Holy Spirit had convinced me of that liberalism was the only option.

Why? Plenty of conservative Christians only hold to inerrancy are regards the original texts, and none believe it is to be all taken literally.

And even people who rejected its Divine inspiration could be conservative in morals according to Scripture.

But if being a Christian can means rejecting Scripture as the word of God, and holding to liberal moral views, such as regards homosexual marriage etc., then how would this fly in the NT church? Or is your view of Scripture so liberal that you even reject those texts as reliable standard as to what a Christian is?

Do you reject any basic Christian doctrines as well?

 

[ValleyGal]

Liberal means being free or loose. Liberty means freedom. So it means you are free from the Traditional or Conservative teachings of the Bible. That is a problem for me.

I disagree. Liberal does not mean freedom from conservative teachings, but freedom to choose their own spiritual path, including whether or not to follow conservative teachings. Not allowing people the right to choose is hypocritical because you are free to choose to practice as a conservative Christian (biblical teachings). Others need to be afforded that same right. It is not up to us to force conservative teachings on those who choose not to practice them.