The truth about baptism

[SBC]

All the scriptures you posted are pre the church and pre the resurrection of Christ. Once the grace period or 6th despation of time starts all we see is Baptism my friend.
1Peter 3:21, acts 2:38, acts 10, acts
Acts 22:16 whre Paul when he believed Jesus as his savior was told he still had to go to Damascus to find out what he must do. Believing wasn’t enough. He got the Holy Ghost and then was told to be baptized in Jesus name for washing is his sins.), Colossians 1:14, Romans 6:1-4 etc.

Question - It's water that in Jesus' name washes sin?
Question - Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is not sufficient to make a man whole?
Question - OT men? Any baptized with water? with Holy Spirit?

Thanks,
God Bless,
SBC

 

[Tom 1]

Baptism in the Greek means submerge/dip. If your not buried under you’re not baptized. Acts 19King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1A. It is by baptism in Jesus name that our sins are remitted/washed away/buried, because by the name of Jesus the blood of Jesus is applied to a person. (Matthew 26:28, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, 48, Acts 22:16(Paul when he believed Jesus as his savior was told he still had to go to Damascus to find out what he must do. Believing wasn’t enough. He got the Holy Ghost and then was told to be baptized in Jesus name for washing is his sins.), Revelation 1:5, Exodus 12:5-7, 13, 1Peter 1:18-19, Revelation 12:11, Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 1:14, Colossians 2:11-12. 1Corinthians 6:11) 2A. The Bible says we are saved by baptism. (1Peter 3:21) Water baptism in Jesus name is compared to Noah and the flood. The sin of the world in Noah’s day was washed away, while Noah was saved by the water, safe in the ark. Our sins are washed away, while we are saved by water baptism in Jesus name.ark is a type of the church. (i.e. One door – Jesus is the door.) We enter into the church by water and Spirit baptism. 2C. Water baptism in Jesus name is an essential part of obedience to the gospel. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. (1Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 6:1-23.) We must obey the gospel in order to be saved. (2Thessalonians 1:8, 1Peter 4:17, Corinthians 9:14 Even so hath the LORD ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. Romans 10:16.) Obeying/ living the gospel is by repentance and water baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which follows Jesus’ death (crucifixion), burial, and resurrection. . .1(Romans 6:1-4,, Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Acts 2:38.). 2D. Historical evidence of baptism In Jesus name ;

BRITANNICA ENCYCLOPEDIA

11TH edition, Vol 3, Pg 365-366

The baptismal formula was changed from the name of JESUS CHRIST to the words Father, Son, & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century.

________________________________________

BRITANNICA ENCYCLOPEDIA

Vol 3, Pg 82

Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the name of Jesus Christ.

________________________________________

CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION

Pg 53

The early church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the 2nd century.

________________________________________

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

Vol 2, Pg 263

Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church.

________________________________________

HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA

OF RELIGION

Vol 2, Pg 377

Christian baptism was administered using the words “In the name of Jesus”.

.

________________________________________



________________________________________

HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION

Vol 2, Pg 377 on ACTS 2:38

NAME was an ancient synonym for “person”. Payment was always made in the name of some person referring ownership. Therefore one being baptized in Jesus Name became his personal property. “Ye are Christ’s.”

________________________________________



ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS

(1951), II, 384, 389

The formula used was ‘in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ’ or some synonymous phrase; there is no evidence for the use of the trine name… The earliest form, represented in the Acts, was simple immersion….in water, the use of the name of the Lord, and the laying on of hands. ….

________________________________________

INTERPRETERS DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE

(1962) I, 351

The evidence … suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, nut ‘in the name of the Lord Jesus’.

________________________________________

A HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT (Otto Heick)

(1965), I, 53

At first baptism was administered in the name of Jesus, but gradually in the name of the : Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

________________________________________

HASTINGS DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE

(1898), I, 241

[] the original form of words was ‘into the name of Jesus Christ’. .

________________________________________


THE NEW SCHAFF-HERZOG ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE

(1957), I, 435

The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus …, which still occurs even in the second and third centuries.

________________________________________

CANNEY’S ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGIONS

(1970), Pg 53

Persons were baptized at first ‘in the name of Jesus Christ’ … or ‘in the name of the Lord Jesus.’… Afterwards, they were baptized ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

________________________________________

ENCYCLOPEDIA BIBLICA

(1899), I, 473

It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times ‘in the name of Jesus Christ,’ or in that ‘of the Lord Jesus.’ This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single – not triple, as was the later creed.

________________________________________

ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA

11TH edition, (1910), Vol 2, Pg 365

Bapti[sm] into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the new Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so wide spread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid.


2E. Historic evidence of baptism washing away sins.

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1 to 2 [A.D. 80]).


Ignatius of Antioch


“Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply” (Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]).


Second Clement


“For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey his commandments. . . . With what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7 to 9 [A.D. 150]). Clement of Alexandria


“When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Psalms 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 190]).

When it comes to the question of immersion, I'm interested in how literally people in different churches take this. For example, in a church I used to go to if a person's big toe or elbow or whatever was sticking out of the water then that wasn't considered a valid baptism, so they'd go under again. To me it seems pretty unlikely if not unbelievable that someone wouldn't 'make it' to heaven because their big toe wasn't immersed. Another view in the same church was that if, for some hypothetical reason a person couldn't be baptised, i.e. some unusual scenario where a person converts in the moment before death and so isn't baptised, then they would still be saved, which kind of does away with the notion of baptism being essential for salvation, which is what was otherwise taught? Confusing, I would say.
'Baptism in the new testament' by G.R. Beasley-Murray was recommended to me and I'd recommend it to anyone else. It's pretty dense with info, but I'm about a quarter of a way in and it's a useful resource for understanding the role of baptism.

 

[GingerBeer]

Baptism in the Greek means submerge/dip.

It isn't as cut and dried as meaning submerge/dip because it has other meanings too like wash and overwhelm.

My koine Greek lexicon says:

βαπτίζω
baptízō; fut. baptísō, from báptō (G911), to dip. Immerse, submerge for a religious purpose, to overwhelm, saturate, baptise (Joh 1:25).

(I) Washing or ablution was frequently by immersion, indicated by either baptízō or níptō (G3538), to wash. In Mar 7:3, the phrase "wash their hands" is the translation of níptō (G3538), to wash part of the body such as the hands. In Mar 7:4 the verb wash in "except they wash" is baptízomai, to immerse. This indicates that the washing of the hands was done by immersing them in collected water. See Luk 11:38 which refers to washing one's hands before the meal, with the use of baptízomai, to have the hands baptised. In the Sept.: 2Ki 5:13-14 we have loúō (G3068), to bathe and baptízomai. See also Lev 11:25, Lev 11:28, Lev 11:40, where plúnō (G4150), to wash clothes by dipping, and loúō (G3068), to bathe are used. In Num 19:18-19, báphō, to dip, and plúnō, to wash by dipping are used.

(II) To baptise or immerse in or wash with water in token of purification from sin and spiritual pollution (Mat 3:6, Mat 3:11; Mar 1:4-5, Mar 1:8-9; Luk 3:7, Luk 3:12, Luk 3:16, Luk 3:21; Luk 7:30; Joh 1:25, Joh 1:28; Joh 3:22-23, Joh 3:26; Joh 4:1-2; Joh 10:40; Act 2:38, Act 2:41; Act 8:12-13, Act 8:36, Act 8:38; Act 9:18; Act 10:47; Act 16:15, Act 16:33; Act 18:8; Act 22:16; 1Co 1:14, 1Co 1:16-17). In Mar 6:14, "John the baptising one [ho baptízōn]" (a.t.). In Luke's writings with a dat. of the instrument or material employed, húdati, the dat. of húdōr (G5204), water, means with water (Luk 3:16; Act 1:5; Act 11:16). Elsewhere, however, the prep. en (G1722), in, is used, en húdati, in water (Mat 3:11; Mar 1:8; Joh 1:26, Joh 1:31, Joh 1:33 (cf. "in the Jordan" [a.t. {Mat 3:6}]). In Mar 1:9, eis (G1519), into, "into the Jordan" (a.t.).

(III) The adjuncts mark the object and effect of baptism: especially eis (G1519), into, unto, with the acc., to baptise or to be baptised into anything means into the belief, profession or observance of anything (Mat 3:11, "unto repentance"; Act 2:38, "unto remission of sins" [a.t.]; Act 19:3, "Unto John's baptism," meaning the repentance unto which John baptised or the baptism related to John's preaching; Rom 6:3, "unto death" [a.t.] means that those who are baptised do so in relation to Jesus Christ's bearing their sins through His sacrifice and atonement on the cross; 1Co 12:13, "unto one body" [a.t.] that we may become parts of the body of Christ and parts of each other). With eis followed by the acc. of person, it means to baptise or be baptised into a profession of faith or into anyone, in sincere obedience to him. Also in 1Co 10:2, "unto Moses"; Gal 3:27, "unto Christ" (a.t.); also "into the name of someone"(a.t.) means to be identified with what the name of that one stands for (Mat 28:19; Act 8:16; Act 19:5; 1Co 1:13, 1Co 1:15). The same sense is understood when the prep. epí (G1909), upon, or en (G1722), in, followed by the dat., onómati (G3686), upon the name of, is used (Act 2:38, epí; Act 10:48, en). With hupér (G5228), on behalf of or for (1Co 15:29, those being "baptised for [or on account of] the dead," i.e., on a belief of the resurrection of the dead).

(IV) Metaphorically and in direct allusion to the practice of water baptism (Mat 3:11; Luk 3:16), to baptise in or with the Holy Spirit and in or with fire, the baptism in the Holy Spirit being the spiritual counterpart of the water baptism. This Spirit baptism is referred to in 1Co 12:13 as an act performed by God in joining all true believers to the body of the Lord Jesus. To be baptised in fire (Mat 3:11 [TR]; Luk 3:16) stands in contrast to the baptism in the Spirit. Those who refuse to be joined into the body of Christ through the energy of the Holy Spirit will suffer the consequent punishment (Mat 3:12; Luk 3:17). In regard to the Spirit baptism, see also Mar 1:8; Joh 1:33; Act 1:5; Act 11:16, where the baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs as a specific phrase indicating what happened at Pentecost in joining the Jews who believed to the body of Christ (Acts 2). This is explained by Peter in Act 11:15-16 indicating that the Gentiles of Caesarea were also baptised in the Holy Spirit. A third group was the disciples of John in Act 19:6. This Spirit baptism was characterised by the phenomenon of speaking in languages never learned by those who were baptised in or with the Spirit (see Act 2:4 [language], Act 2:6, Act 2:8 [dialect], Act 2:11 [languages]; Act 10:46 [languages]; Act 19:6 [languages]). Thus the baptism in the Holy Spirit is Christ's attachment of those who genuinely believe as members of His body. In 1Co 12:13 the verb ebaptísthēmen refers to all believers of all times. It is something that God did in forming the spiritual body of Jesus Christ or the body of all believers, the Church. It fulfills the promise of Christ to send into the world in a special way the Holy Spirit or the Paráklētos (G3875), the Paraclete, Comforter, Intercessor, Consoler (Joh 16:7-14).

(V) Metaphorically, the verb baptízō, to baptise, and the noun báptisma, baptism, are used in connection with calamities as in Mat 20:22-23; Mar 10:38-39, meaning to be overwhelmed with sufferings as the life of Jesus Christ was characterised. A similar expression is in Isa 21:4 in the Sept., "lawlessness baptises me" (a.t.) or "overwhelms me" (a.t.). In 1Co 15:29, "What shall those being baptized for the dead do?" (a.t.); "Why therefore are they baptised on their behalf?" (a.t.) means if the dead do not rise, why expose ourselves to so much danger and suffering in the hope of a resurrection? This is an argument which Paul presents in order to prove the reality of the resurrection (cf. 1Co 15:30-31 where the verbs kinduneúō [G2793], to undergo danger, and apothnḗskō [G599], to die, used instead of baptízomai, to be baptised).

(VI) In contrast to the verb baptízō, to dip, immerse, is the verb rhantízō (G4472), to sprinkle, which must not be taken as equivalent to baptízō. Rhantízō is used in Mar 7:4 in the WH instead of baptísōntai. Baptísōntai, however, of the TR and the UBS texts, is to be preferred in agreement with baptismoús (pl. [G909]) occurring in the same verse referring to the ceremonial washings of utensils. Baptismós, the ceremonial washing, should never be confused with báptisma which is a distinct practice related to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptismós as mere cleansing of instruments was equated with rhantismós (G4473), sprinkling (found only in Heb 12:24; 1Pe 1:2), because this word was used to indicate the cleansing in symbolism done by the priest of the OT. Such ceremonial cleansing symbolised by sprinkling (Heb 9:19, Heb 9:21; Heb 10:22; Heb 12:24; 1Pe 1:2) had no permanent value nor did it actually cleanse the consciences of individual people. The verb rhantízō, to sprinkle, is found in Heb 9:13 where the contrast between the sprinkling is symbolic of the cleansing of the flesh. However, in Heb 9:14, the blood of Jesus Christ will katharieí (the same as katharísei), cleanse (from the verb katharízō [G2511], purify or cleanse) the conscience of man or his inner being. The high priest never baptised anyone in the way that Christian believers are baptised. He merely sprinkled the blood of animals. Therefore, the sprinkling has nothing to do with baptism but simply with ceremonial cleansing (Heb 9:21). Since, according to Heb 9:22, there can be no remission of sins without the "shedding of blood," Jesus Christ did indeed shed His blood (i.e., lay His life down as a sacrifice for sin). Thus it is not through some magical sprinkling of that blood upon our bodies or souls that we are saved, but when through faith we have our hearts "sprinkled" (the application of the benefits of Christ's death) from an evil conscience and our bodies washed (lelouménoi, the perf. pass. part. of loúō [G3068], to bathe) with clean water (Heb 10:22). The verb loúō, bathe, must be definitely differentiated from the verb níptō (G3538), to wash part of the body, usually feet, hands, or face, which can be used syn. with baptízō, as the verb of baptismós, ceremonial ablution (Luk 11:38), but never equivalent to the NT technical term of baptízō. The two great cleansing ceremonies of the OT, sprinkling and washing, typified the true work of salvation in Jesus Christ. The former perhaps signifying forgiveness (the cleansing of sin's guilt) and the latter probably betokening regeneration (the washing away of sin's defilement). Because believers have received the antitypical reality of these ceremonies in Christ, the writer can say that we have indeed had our consciences sprinkled and our bodies washed.

Deriv.: báptisma (G908), baptism, the result of baptizing; baptismós (G909), the ceremonial washing of articles; baptistḗs (G910), baptist, used of John to qualify him as one baptizing.
Syn.: buthízō (G1036), to sink, but not necessarily to drown; katapontízō (G2670), to plunge down, submerge; embáptō (G1686), to dip.
Ant.: pléō (G4126), to sail upon the water.
​

 

[SBC]

Also the Bible says one must believe and be baptized not just believe.

Agree ~
The Believing ~ is what the

man does.
The Baptism ~ is what the Lord does.

But lastly the word believe itself stems from the Greek word pisteou which means to act on what you believe.

Agree ~
The Believing ~ is what man does.
The "calling on the Lords NAME" and telling HIM you believe ~ is what the man does.

And as time progresses ~ nearing the end-days ~ (even now) a man SPEAKING out of his mouth, a confession to the Lord of believe in Him, will cease.

Technology is so advanced ~ nothing is private. Men are in fear ~ gather in secrecy ~ are cautious for the sake of their families ~ to openly announce their belief ~ some even in their own homes.

However ~ no issue ~ A mans thoughts of belief, in his heart, are sufficient for the Lord to make the man WHOLE. (which in part DOES include the man receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit)

Rev 2
[23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:

Perhaps the the churches, do not yet know, or yet teach, water does not wash away sin, but rather it is Jesus' blood, is what washes away sin, and the Lord is He who searches their heart's thoughts for their belief in Him, and the Lord who acts according to their heart's thoughts.

Men require "TO SEE" many things, as their confidence to TRUST something is so.
A Church will not ALLOW a person to be a "member of their Church", "without" a record of Water Baptism.

However Christ's Church is not brick and mortar, built with men's hands. Christ's Church Body, Members, are those He has washed with His BLOOD, and He has Baptized with the Holy Spirit, which no man has SEEN.

God Bless,
SBC

In acts 2 the Jews believed Peters gospel... but how come they got baptized and got the Holy Ghost after if believing is just enough?

Believing ~ is what a man does or does not do.
Being Baptized with the Holy Spirit ~ IS what the Lord does when one Believes

Why tell PEOPLE ~ Gods Word?
Why tell PEOPLE ~ The Lord shall Baptize them IF they believe?
Why tell PEOPLE ~ What the Lord's Holy Spirit Baptism means for them?

Uh? How come?

For the same reason of when you first learned of the Lord.
Every person born of this earth, has to first Hear about the Lord.
Some children are taught His Words, and taught to Believe in the Lord.

Okay ~ then what? Are they simply taught ~ oooh rah, get the Holy Spirit, and you will be saved FROM Hell, and saved TO the Lord and go to Heaven when your body dies?

(for some that appears to be the case)
And particularly for "unbelievers", they often have commented, that Believing in God; is simply a get out of hell card, and a license to sin.

Receiving of; being baptized with the Holy Spirit, is much more than saving ones soul FROM HELL.

It was Jesus who taught and revealed secrets; and the Disciples who taught, and it is man who can believe their testimonies or not.

Believing in ones heart's thoughts; IS enough for a man to do ~
The Lord does all the rest to MAKE the man WHOLE and acceptable to Him.

It is thereafter a man CAN serve the Lord through WORKS, and be rewarded when the Lord returns OR not serve the Lord through WORKS, and not be rewarded when the Lord returns.

How come in acts 19... another example of baptism being essential

Why are you trying to convince me "BAPTISM " is essential?

Where did I say it wasn't?

Perhaps you need to be MORE SPECIFIC.

There absolutely is more than ONE thing called a Baptism.

I do not believe WATER Baptism is necessary.
Washing with WATER, was a foreshadow to being WASHED in Jesus' Blood.

I did not live at a time in history where WASHING ones FEET before entering the Temple was satisfactory.

I did not live at a time of John the Baptist where submerging one bodily in water was a sign of remission of sins and satisfactory.

I did not live at a time of Jesus on the earth, washing men's feet, they they would know, what He does for them, they would be doing for others.

And what DID Jesus do for them? Jesus washed them IN HIS BLOOD, for remission of sins.

And what DID they do for others? Wash their feet? Submerge them in water? No, they did what Jesus DID, which is to TELL THEM HOW to be washed in Jesus' Blood for the remission of their sins.

I live in a time, where nothing has changed since the Beginning ~ to hear the Word of God, decide to believe ~ and IF I truly believe in my Heart ~ The Lord Himself will forgive me, kill my body, restore my soul, quicken my spirit, give me a new heart, let me live in His body, dwell within me with His Spirit, seal me unto Him only, teach me, and return to claim my body and change it, and allow me to see Him as He is, and dwell with Him forever.

Nothing has changed from the beginning on what God does for a man who believes ~
What has changed FOR MAN since the beginning~ is having more knowledge revealed of HOW God changes a man.

While OT men were "under the Law", they also were "under" the Grace of God, as are all men, from beginning to the ending ~ who choose to believe ~ "under" the Grace of God to be made WHOLE, by His acts, upon a man who believes in Him, whether or not they comprehend what His acts are.

Getting into the NT, is where one begins to discover, the teaching thereof of WHAT Gods "acts" upon a believing man are.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Athanasius377]

So Baptize in Greek simply means to immerse. And yes, there is a correlation to the death and resurrection of Christ. As for the formulation, I'm not sure what you do with Mat 28:19. The best reason is that there were more than one formulation until the second century when the christological controversies began to force the church to chose a more careful formulation. You posted a quote that the Catholic church changed the baptismal formulation in the second century. If by Catholic you mean Roman you are going to have a hard time finding such a body at this point in history because it didn't exist. It is reading history with a preconceived notion of history and reading it back into the text anachronistically . What became the precursor to the modern church of Rome doesn't show up until the late fourth century at the earliest.

From the Didache, and early church manual dated from the late first century to early second century (Lightfoot translation):

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

We may never know why the formulation was changed but I would suggest it had more to do with combating the heresies regarding the person and work of Christ and God the Holy Spirit. It has warrant in Holy Scripture and is wise even today given there are still heretics pretending to be christian.

 

[amariselle]

baprism circumcises the heart that’s the difference. Clenses from sin. Idk if I understood your question correctly but I’d so yeah that’s answer

Where does it say in Scripture that water baptism "circumcises the heart"? Or that water baptism "cleanses from sin?"

Only the precious blood of Jesus can cleanse us from sin, and that "circumcision of the heart" is an act of God, not something we bring about by being submerged in water. (Which only touches the "flesh" and does nothing for the "inner man" or the "heart.") And we know that people can go through such motions and not have any real faith or change brought about as a result. This is why our being "born again" is not according to us, but to God who works this transformation in us.

Also, soon as we make an earthly ritual or tradition necessary for salvation, (a work) confusion and disagreement then will arise as to how, when, where etc. such a ritual must be performed to be effective, and we have also added a "work" to the finished work of Christ. We know this to be the case, people are always disagreeing about such things. It causes fear as well, and leaves many wondering if they were water baptized "properly", and, if not, are they truly forgiven, cleansed from all sin, and saved? So then, where is a person's focus, on what Christ has done alone, or, at least in part, what they have done as well?

Cleansing from sin is an act of God, not of man. While believers should be baptized in water, as an outward indentification with and proclamation of Christ's death, burial and ressurection, it is the inward change, being born again by the will and act of God (not human passion or plan) this Spiritual re-birth that comes by grace, through faith, that cleanses us and "circumcises" our hearts. When we are born again in this way, we are "baptised" by the Holy Spirit, He indwells us and abides with us, and we are "sealed" by Him to the day of redemption.

The Old Testament also mentions "heart circumcision", apart from any mention of water baptism. And we know, from Scripture, that the "baptism of John"/water baptism, was preparing the way for Christ, and that He baptizes not with water, but with the Holy Spirit and "fire." (Matthew 3:11) And so we know that this is the greater and necessary baptism, (by the Holy Spirit) and it is an act of God, not man.

Also, "create in me a clean heart, oh God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psalm 51:10 This is a prayer, a request, in faith, made of God, who alone can change our hearts. We participate in outward, "fleshly" rituals and traditions, but we cannot change ourselves inwardly or cause ourselves to be "born again." This is an act of God, performed in us by grace, through faith.

Romans 4, Ephesians 1:3-14, Hebrews 11 etc.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Where does it say in Scripture that water baptism "circumcises the heart"? Or that water baptism "cleanses from sin?"

Only the precious blood of Jesus can cleanse us from sin, and that "circumcision of the heart" is an act of God, not something we bring about by being submerged in water. (Which only touches the "flesh" and does nothing for the "inner man" or the "heart.") And we know that people can go through such motions and not have any real faith or change brought about as a result. This is why our being "born again" is not according to us, but to God who works this transformation in us.

Also, soon as we make an earthly ritual or tradition necessary for salvation, (a work) confusion and disagreement then will arise as to how, when, where etc. such a ritual must be performed to be effective, and we have also added a "work" to the finished work of Christ. We know this to be the case, people are always disagreeing about such things. It causes fear as well, and leaves many wondering if they were water baptized "properly", and, if not, are they truly forgiven, cleansed from all sin, and saved? So then, where is a person's focus, on what Christ has done alone, or, at least in part, what they have done as well?

Cleansing from sin is an act of God, not of man. While believers should be baptized in water, as an outward indentification with and proclamation of Christ's death, burial and ressurection, it is the inward change, being born again by the will and act of God (not human passion or plan) this Spiritual re-birth that comes by grace, through faith, that cleanses us and "circumcises" our hearts. When we are born again in this way, we are "baptised" by the Holy Spirit, He indwells us and abides with us, and we are "sealed" by Him to the day of redemption.

The Old Testament also mentions "heart circumcision", apart from any mention of water baptism. And we know, from Scripture, that the "baptism of John"/water baptism, was preparing the way for Christ, and that He baptizes not with water, but with the Holy Spirit and "fire." (Matthew 3:11) And so we know that this is the greater and necessary baptism, (by the Holy Spirit) and it is an act of God, not man.

Also, "create in me a clean heart, oh God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psalm 51:10 This is a prayer, a request, in faith, made of God, who alone can change our hearts. We participate in outward, "fleshly" rituals and traditions, but we cannot change ourselves inwardly or cause ourselves to be "born again." This is an act of God, performed in us by grace, through faith.

Romans 4, Ephesians 1:3-14, Hebrews 11 etc.

Acts 22:16 shows how baptism clensed Paul from sin. Here is the heart stuff Colossians 2:11-13 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Where does it say in Scripture that water baptism "circumcises the heart"? Or that water baptism "cleanses from sin?"

Only the precious blood of Jesus can cleanse us from sin, and that "circumcision of the heart" is an act of God, not something we bring about by being submerged in water. (Which only touches the "flesh" and does nothing for the "inner man" or the "heart.") And we know that people can go through such motions and not have any real faith or change brought about as a result. This is why our being "born again" is not according to us, but to God who works this transformation in us.

Also, soon as we make an earthly ritual or tradition necessary for salvation, (a work) confusion and disagreement then will arise as to how, when, where etc. such a ritual must be performed to be effective, and we have also added a "work" to the finished work of Christ. We know this to be the case, people are always disagreeing about such things. It causes fear as well, and leaves many wondering if they were water baptized "properly", and, if not, are they truly forgiven, cleansed from all sin, and saved? So then, where is a person's focus, on what Christ has done alone, or, at least in part, what they have done as well?

Cleansing from sin is an act of God, not of man. While believers should be baptized in water, as an outward indentification with and proclamation of Christ's death, burial and ressurection, it is the inward change, being born again by the will and act of God (not human passion or plan) this Spiritual re-birth that comes by grace, through faith, that cleanses us and "circumcises" our hearts. When we are born again in this way, we are "baptised" by the Holy Spirit, He indwells us and abides with us, and we are "sealed" by Him to the day of redemption.

The Old Testament also mentions "heart circumcision", apart from any mention of water baptism. And we know, from Scripture, that the "baptism of John"/water baptism, was preparing the way for Christ, and that He baptizes not with water, but with the Holy Spirit and "fire." (Matthew 3:11) And so we know that this is the greater and necessary baptism, (by the Holy Spirit) and it is an act of God, not man.

Also, "create in me a clean heart, oh God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psalm 51:10 This is a prayer, a request, in faith, made of God, who alone can change our hearts. We participate in outward, "fleshly" rituals and traditions, but we cannot change ourselves inwardly or cause ourselves to be "born again." This is an act of God, performed in us by grace, through faith.

Romans 4, Ephesians 1:3-14, Hebrews 11 etc.

Also if you read my scripture in my OP (I assume you didn’t just like you didn’t read acts 22:16) I mention I believe first peter 3:2 I think it is where peter says that baptism saves but explains that the act itself doesn’t save or the water itself doesn’t but rather God moves soirtually through that natural act. For example there’s nothing supernatural about prayer it’s just saying words... but what we understand is that something happens in the spiritual realm... the same thing goes for baptism. Fasting the same thing... you’re just starving yourself really but something happens in the spiritual realm through this natural action

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Where does it say in Scripture that water baptism "circumcises the heart"? Or that water baptism "cleanses from sin?"

Only the precious blood of Jesus can cleanse us from sin, and that "circumcision of the heart" is an act of God, not something we bring about by being submerged in water. (Which only touches the "flesh" and does nothing for the "inner man" or the "heart.") And we know that people can go through such motions and not have any real faith or change brought about as a result. This is why our being "born again" is not according to us, but to God who works this transformation in us.

Also, soon as we make an earthly ritual or tradition necessary for salvation, (a work) confusion and disagreement then will arise as to how, when, where etc. such a ritual must be performed to be effective, and we have also added a "work" to the finished work of Christ. We know this to be the case, people are always disagreeing about such things. It causes fear as well, and leaves many wondering if they were water baptized "properly", and, if not, are they truly forgiven, cleansed from all sin, and saved? So then, where is a person's focus, on what Christ has done alone, or, at least in part, what they have done as well?

Cleansing from sin is an act of God, not of man. While believers should be baptized in water, as an outward indentification with and proclamation of Christ's death, burial and ressurection, it is the inward change, being born again by the will and act of God (not human passion or plan) this Spiritual re-birth that comes by grace, through faith, that cleanses us and "circumcises" our hearts. When we are born again in this way, we are "baptised" by the Holy Spirit, He indwells us and abides with us, and we are "sealed" by Him to the day of redemption.

The Old Testament also mentions "heart circumcision", apart from any mention of water baptism. And we know, from Scripture, that the "baptism of John"/water baptism, was preparing the way for Christ, and that He baptizes not with water, but with the Holy Spirit and "fire." (Matthew 3:11) And so we know that this is the greater and necessary baptism, (by the Holy Spirit) and it is an act of God, not man.

Also, "create in me a clean heart, oh God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psalm 51:10 This is a prayer, a request, in faith, made of God, who alone can change our hearts. We participate in outward, "fleshly" rituals and traditions, but we cannot change ourselves inwardly or cause ourselves to be "born again." This is an act of God, performed in us by grace, through faith.

Romans 4, Ephesians 1:3-14, Hebrews 11 etc.

Lastly here’s a scripture that disproved your baptism isn’t a need thing Post Johns baptism... the Bible in John 3:5 I believe first of all says we must be born of water and spirit... so God wouldn’t contradict his word and just eliminate that... rather Johns baptism became baptism in Jesus Name that goes along with Holy Ghost reception. You’re right jesus became the focus but through jesus we have salvation not just repentance like with Johns baptism
Acts 19King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[amariselle]

Lastly here’s a scripture that disproved your baptism isn’t a need thing Post Johns baptism... the Bible in John 3:5 I believe first of all says we must be born of water and spirit... so God wouldn’t contradict his word and just eliminate that... rather Johns baptism became baptism in Jesus Name that goes along with Holy Ghost reception. You’re right jesus became the focus but through jesus we have salvation not just repentance like with Johns baptism
Acts 19King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Exactly, water baptism (John's baptism) was done to prepare the way for the One to come, "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." (Jesus Christ, Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and "fire.") As we see in the above Scripture you quoted, those baptized with water did not receive the Holy Spirit, and, by their own admission they had not even heard of the Spirit.) There is absolutely no indication that the "baptism in the name of Jesus" that Paul ministered here, by laying on of hands, involved water. This "baptism" is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who then came upon them. (As on the believers at Pentecost, where, once again, water baptism is not mentioned).

Also, the "water" referred to in "born of water and the Spirit", is our physical, earthly birth, as in when our mother's "water" breaks. Jesus was comparing and contrasting our physical, birth with our spiritual "re-birth" (which is not the result of "human passion or plan".)

Our Spiritual re-birth is an act of God, Who alone can change our hearts and cause us to be "born again", made new creations in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, washed by the blood of Jesus, which cleanses us from all sin. Water does not and cannot remit sin, only the precious blood of Christ can do so.

 

[SBC]

Lastly here’s a scripture that disproved your baptism isn’t a need thing Post Johns baptism... the Bible in John 3:5 I believe first of all says we must be born of water and spirit... so God wouldn’t contradict his word and just eliminate that...

Being BORN is not a Baptism.

Being naturally BORN for a human is effect by a "seed" being planted in a Fallopian tube.
...what Becomes BORN, is a natural human, coming forth out of a water sac.
Being supernaturally BORN for a human is effected by a "SEED" being planted in ones heart.
...what Becomes BORN, is a supernatural spirit, remaining within the heart, yet is "supposed" to come forth, in words out of your mouth, and deeds out of your works.

Cleansing with WATER, was acceptable to WASH dirt, crime, sin off a body.

Then men learned that Jesus' Blood is the ultimate and final acceptable way to WASH a mans WHOLE (body, soul, natural spirit) of SIN. Gods Works, not ours.

Receiving the Holy Spirit of God within a man, IS the ultimate and final acceptable way for a man to BE Baptized. Gods Works, not ours.

God Bless,
SBC

Acts 19King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And? What had they received when they believed? Something they were told, (remission of sin, water Baptism) something they were told to do for remission of sin, (water Baptism), then told for repentance, they should believe on Christ Jesus...and receive the Holy Spirit....

Whoops, something is missing in your review -

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Since they first "believed" what?
Believed John's water baptism was for repentance of sin?
....and since they believed that....they received such Baptism?

And if so, what does that have to do with believing on Christ Jesus or receiving the Holy Spirit, that Paul was teaching them?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

They got the Holy Ghost in verse 6

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

They got the Holy Ghost in verse 6

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Exactly, water baptism (John's baptism) was done to prepare the way for the One to come, "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." (Jesus Christ, Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and "fire.") As we see in the above Scripture you quoted, those baptized with water did not receive the Holy Spirit, and, by their own admission they had not even heard of the Spirit.) There is absolutely no indication that the "baptism in the name of Jesus" that Paul ministered here, by laying on of hands, involved water. This "baptism" is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who then came upon them. (As on the believers at Pentecost, where, once again, water baptism is not mentioned).

Also, the "water" referred to in "born of water and the Spirit", is our physical, earthly birth, as in when our mother's "water" breaks. Jesus was comparing and contrasting our physical, birth with our spiritual "re-birth" (which is not the result of "human passion or plan".)

Our Spiritual re-birth is an act of God, Who alone can change our hearts and cause us to be "born again", made new creations in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, washed by the blood of Jesus, which cleanses us from all sin. Water does not and cannot remit sin, only the precious blood of Christ can do so.

You misunderstood me... I’m not saying baptism in Jesus Name is the Holy Spirit.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Exactly, water baptism (John's baptism) was done to prepare the way for the One to come, "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." (Jesus Christ, Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and "fire.") As we see in the above Scripture you quoted, those baptized with water did not receive the Holy Spirit, and, by their own admission they had not even heard of the Spirit.) There is absolutely no indication that the "baptism in the name of Jesus" that Paul ministered here, by laying on of hands, involved water. This "baptism" is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who then came upon them. (As on the believers at Pentecost, where, once again, water baptism is not mentioned).

Also, the "water" referred to in "born of water and the Spirit", is our physical, earthly birth, as in when our mother's "water" breaks. Jesus was comparing and contrasting our physical, birth with our spiritual "re-birth" (which is not the result of "human passion or plan".)

Our Spiritual re-birth is an act of God, Who alone can change our hearts and cause us to be "born again", made new creations in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, washed by the blood of Jesus, which cleanses us from all sin. Water does not and cannot remit sin, only the precious blood of Christ can do so.

Just that baptism is a part of salvation that’s all I’m saying.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

And believe as in believe the gospel believe in Jesus and again I’m not saying baptism is the Holy Ghost one must be born of water (baptism) and spirit (holy ghostbusters

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I’m sorry for confusion

 

[Monk Brendan]

It is by baptism in Jesus name that our sins are remitted/washed away/buried, because by the name of Jesus the blood of Jesus is applied to a person.

Forgive me, but baptism is supposed to be done in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit, and not just Jesus. So from there on, go back and rework your statement.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Forgive me, but baptism is supposed to be done in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit, and not just Jesus. So from there on, go back and rework your statement.

But what is the name of the son?

 

[Monk Brendan]

The baptismal formula was changed from the name of JESUS CHRIST to the words Father, Son, & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century.

That is incorrect, and a slander to all Catholics. The Didache also tells us to baptize in the Trinitarian formula.

And, in the 2nd Century, the Catholic Church was an illegal religion under constant attack. She was, along with the Orthodox Church, ONE church back then, and she did not have the power to re-write Scripture.

Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church.

The Catholics NEVER changed the formula. It is the same in Greek and Latin (Vulgate, Matt 28:19 euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti--English [KJV, a Protestant Bible] “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”--Greek, 19 πορευθέντες q]">[q]οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, r]">[r]βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,)

They all say the same thing. So go back and work your statements a bit.