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Featured The truth about baptism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JESUS=G.O.A.T, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus, or Yeshua bar Joseph
     
  2. ContemplatingFarmer

    ContemplatingFarmer New Member

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    Questions:
    • Is baptism required to be saved / enter heaven?
    • Implications of dying after accepting God's saving grace but before being baptized?
    • Can a person baptize themselves (immersion) or is another person required to perform the ceremony?
      • If another person is required to perform the baptism, what are the qualifications of that person, i.e. must they also be a 'believer', must they be male?
      • If another person is required to perform the baptism, what is the implication if that person was a 'fake', e.g. a non-believer that just professed belief?
    Thank you for your thoughts,
     
  3. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    So why wouldn’t you baptize in the name of the son?
     
  4. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    Also I’ll address the post with questions in a minute
     
  5. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    1. I believe based off all I’ve looked into that baptism is needed for salvation. It washes away sins and is a part of the gospel crusifiction (repentance) burial (baptism), resurrection(Holy Ghost). I have scriptures in the OP on this also. About your secound point that’s a good question and I would have to say no... especially if they had multiple chances and said no to turning to God. One example I think of is Noah’s ark. Once it started flooding people believed but it was too late and they ignored previous warnings. I also know of a man who got baptized in the hospital at the age of 98 before he died. So I believe anyone who wants to receive God does. Also the Bible mentions predestination and the elect and as we read there are examples of this like even people like in pagan societies like Abraham are able to be reached by God. I doubt that anyone who will receive the gospel will not hear it but that’s my take on it. As far as your next question I would say no it’s not a requirement for another person to baptize someone. Sure every example we read about in the Bible including Jesus own baptism was by another person but that’s never mandated. I believe if someone doesn’t have the option of getting someone else to baptize them... maybe they are in a home full of athirst who will not let them go to church or who will not baptize them in a tub. They can baptize themselves. Another reason is because although often times we see people lay hands for people to receive the Holy Ghost in the Bible or others around them there are instances like with Paul where he got the Holy Ghost by himself. No assistance and no one around preaching or teaching.
     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    certainly I agree that Jesus has a unique role as priest and intercessor for us so when we demonstrate professions of our faith, those professions are accepted and worthy because the grace of Christ makes them worthy. Baptism in our sinfulness is worthless and insulting but because of our redeemed state through Christ they too are redeemed by the same power and become worthy.

    I would never condemn someone who baptises in the name of Jesus only by method alone however I value the words of Christ and I would be remiss to say I would be uncomfortable with not baptising in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    As I write this I concede to areas where I may consider baptising in the name of Jesus only. NT conversions don't demand that one believes in the trinity but that merely one believes in Jesus, God's son; they don't try and "fix" their theology. Many may struggle or still have developing theology in regards to the deity of Christ (ie. Muslims and Jews seeking Jesus) but still read and accept his gospel and still desire authentically to follow Christ. Why prevent a believer from getting baptised because their theology is not where we want it to be?

    We rob people of discovering intimacy with Jesus when we show them the answer book and try and "fix" them first. Faith is a journey and baptism is a significant step in the beginnings of this journey and we need to allow people to start this journey not hold them back or estrange them from it.
     
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  7. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    ehem....bar Yosef
     
  8. ContemplatingFarmer

    ContemplatingFarmer New Member

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    Hi, and thank you for your reply and thoughts on this subject. What are your thoughts about the situation described in Luke 23:42-43 in which the one sinner asks Jesus to remember him and Jesus responds that he (the sinner) would meet Jesus tonight in Paradise? We don't know if this particular sinner had previously been baptized or not (and was being crucified for some crime), or if the sinner realized who Jesus was at that moment and had never been baptized. If the latter, then Christ's promise of being with him in Paradise (heaven) seems to demonstrate that baptism is not required to receive salvation or enter heaven.
    A related thought is one of "timing", for example, consider a situation, perhaps in a time or country in which there were few 'believers' (missionaries, disciples, apostles, etc.). Consider a missionary that meets a tribal member somewhere in the jungle in the Amazon a hundred years ago. The missionary communicates with a low ranking tribal member, that member responds something like "Yes, I believe and want to know more about God/Jesus" and then the head of the tribe immediately kills the missionary as a 'foreign devil' or 'outsider'. Is that low level member who accepted the word "saved" and will that person enter heaven?
    I have discussed this subject with many people over the years yet have never found a conclusive answer that fits all situations that could have occurred since the time of the crucifixion and would apply to all geographic locations - such as a minister imprisoned in China and converting a person in the next cell.
     
  9. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    As far as the dinner on the cross goes I was always confused about that as well until I learned more about the dispensations of time. The transition to transition from the fifth period of time to grace didn’t take place yet. Jesus was still walking the Earth pentocost or the first time where the prophecy of Joel is fulfilled didn’t take place yet, the promise of power from on high which would mark the transition into the church age and into the “acts 2:38 salvation process didn’t happen yet. The gospel wasn’t set jesus had yet to die and resurrect and usher us into a new period of time. Into that age. About your tribe example I’ve read documents and watched videos about missionaries recounting there journey preaching in lands where you could be killed for believing in God specifically UPC missionaries. Typically what they do is build a church in the area or secretly have fellowship with people in the Middle East or Africa or whatever region it is. But in the cases where a tribe or group can kill the person before they even yeah. The missionaries have a system in which they get the people out of their area or country to on one of their “camps” where they can learn and get baptized and accept and walk with God and what not in peace before they return to their country (if they return usually it’s just if they have family there). but as far as your example of someone saying they want to know about Jesus and getting killed so far in my journey as a minister at a church I can’t say I’ve ever heard of such a yeah. Usually God seems to make a way the head pastor at our church was set to die in one day because he was smoking 2 packs a day yet he told God hey I want to know more and he lived. There are other accounts also but this is just one personally ik. But let’s say that situation came up and maybe he got the Holy Ghost and repentend but maybe wasn’t baptized yet if he had a heart to do so I believe he would be fine . But at the same time I have a hard time believing God would allow that to happen to someone who really wanted to be born again of water he wants us all to come to repentance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  10. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    About the cell example I read about someone who was in jail and he wanted to know more about God and was willing to give anything for it. Not long after that a missionary comes over and baptizes him and he also gets the Holy Ghost. This man then proceeded to study and minister and save souls in the prison until he eventually is released and becomes an evangelist. I get what you’re saying though what if someone ends up in a situation where yeah but I just have a hard time believing God would do that to someone the Bible says we are predistened he forknkws or that he knows who will choose him. With this in mind I honestly believe God makes a way to reach those people. I mean in the Bible most of the people God uses are people we would today say can’t be reached cause of a geographic or cultural or ideological barrier. Such as Saul, Abraham, David (his family line), etc.
     
  11. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    Your questions are great and I’ve leaneed a lot through them some I can’t really answer tbh but those are just my thoughts on it. I honestly believe based off the amazing ways God reaches the seemingly unreachable in the Bible that anyone who he knows will accept the gospel and walk in it (and not just like parts of it or stuff they like) will for sure hear it. Romans 8:29 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
     
  12. ContemplatingFarmer

    ContemplatingFarmer New Member

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    Yes, but what about the 'aha' moment of ...let's say a believer that does not know that baptism is immersion, say that believer was taught that baptism is not immersion, and that believer's parents and friends all are of the same 'church' so to speak. What about the poor souls that have been taught that a non-immersion baptism is the 'right way', possibly by Methodists, Salvation Army, Roman Catholic, etc. Would God deny salvation due to 'incorrect' baptism? and then there is the question of age and maturity. For example, can a baby be baptized? What about an eight year old? A sixteen year old? A sixteen year old with the mental age of a 5 year old? ...and so on and so forth.
     
  13. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    1. If someone is too young or not able to understand what’s going on they are fine. I forgot what scripture i had on that subject but yeah. Also before people are baptized in the Bible they always know who jesus is before hand before they are baptized in his name. Takes a certain age for one to truly grasp that. As far as souls in other baptisms or even no baptism at all my mom was in a presperteian church. She didn’t know about baptism let alone much about the Bible. But God sent my dad (he wasn’t saved or serving God but he grew up under a church that taught being born of water and Spirit) who showed her a church like the one he grew up in. Now he’s a deacon and she’s an usher for a church. A friend of mine grew up in a household where his mom was catholic and Dad non religious. One day he met me and a friend of mine Cameron we showed him what we knew and now he’s been baptized and has gotten the Holy Spirit as well and yeah.
     
  14. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    This last example convinced me the most of Romans 8:29. An deacon at my church grew up with prostitution, drugs, and murders. He became that Killed people and ended up in jail... and not just any jail it was one of those where repetive offenders (like himself goes) and he was serving for life there. One day he was playing dice with a friend who told him about a preacher and told Bradley (the guy I’m talking about) if you don’t come with me to listen to him I’m not playing dice with you anymore. Bradley decided to go.. the preacher offered to pray for him and Bradley accepted. The preacher said he would send for his pastor for Bradley and Bradley accepted. The pastor comes and says I feel a call on your life God wants you and you will get out this prison. A day later somehow he’s no longer serving a life sentence and free. The pastor came by to pick him up and bring Bradley home and offer him clothes. To make a long story short now he’s a deacon serving God. If God is willing to go that low... for someone who has never seen a bible... for someone deep in the trenches who’s killed people.. who’s been on all kinds of drugs. Who was at a culture (not a single person in his family believed in God let alone at least had some good morals), economic, spiritual, circumstantial disadvantage. Had every kind of disadvantage possible God reached just cause he forknew and predestined them I can’t say I believe anyone is left out. He’s the only saved Christian in his family... everyone else is on drugs.. in jail... this or that. Just like Abraham God reached him out of everyone in that toxic culture... because God knew they would accept him, and thus God ordained (predestined) them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  15. Brokenhill

    Brokenhill Praise God, i'm satisifed.

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    The way in which we "call on the name of the LORD" is baptism, as proven by Acts 22:16.

    You're right that scriptural teachings should not be changed--the 1st christians, and all the ones within the 1st couple of centuries understood baptism to be necessary.

    The thief on the cross needs to be understood with the following in mind:
    1. This was BEFORE jesus died...baptism is symbolic of dying with Christ--how could the thief die with Christ through baptism if Christ was still alive? The new covenant wasn't in affect yet because Jesus hadn't died.
    Hebrews 9:16-17
    "16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives."
    That is why the thief was not subject to baptism.

    2. Even if the preceding point was not true...at the end of the day Jesus is Jesus and has all authority, therefor He can save whomever He wishes per the will of God. But THOSE OF US LIVING NOW are not the thief on the cross...Jesus has not told any of us to our face that we are saved. We cannot use the thief on the cross as an excuse to get out of obeying a commandment of God.

    Generally speaking, "what-if" situations amount to nothing. when it comes to what the scripture teaches, "what-if" situations cannot change what is required, or else we could theoririze all day and come to a point where none of it applies! If God so chooses to have grace on those who are on their deathbed and genuinely are seeking Him and they can't obey certain things, then fine--BUT LET GOD BE THE JUDGE OF THAT, NOT US.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  16. Brokenhill

    Brokenhill Praise God, i'm satisifed.

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    1. Yes, Acts 2:38 clearly states that the forgiveness of sins comes after the point of baptism.

    2. See my previous post.

    3. In Mathew 28:18-20, Jesus commands the apostles to preach the gospel and baptize believers. In Acts 8:36-40 we see the act of baptism as a submission to God, with the assistance of another man (Philip in this case). As far as the "qualifications", the Bible doesn't give any information, at least on what it seems you're asking.
    Ultimately, baptism is between the believer and God. The other person is just a means to an end. But going back to Matthew 18, those who preached the gospel were to baptize...so I think it's safe to say that a believer should be the one to baptize...and they should do it in the Name of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.
    If the baptizer is a deceiver/fake...the one submitting to baptism can't help that--but he/she CAN help the fact that (a) they understand the gospel of Christ; (b) they understand that the baptism is by the authority of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, and not any human; and (c) that their baptism is an act of submission to God for the sake of forgiveness of sins by Gods grace...not a work of their own doing that would "earn" salvation or something like that.
     
  17. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    The problem with this teaching is this , claiming a person is not 'saved' unless they are dunked in water is 100% totally false
    This kind of foolishness is to be expected from people who think that water saves people
    I have been in long debates about this
    You will answer unto God for all your words
    your feeble attempt at 'what if's" is so weak it is invalid
    Many people do not even believe in God , but when the reality of death is in their face and they know they will die , they will often ask God for forgiveness and ask God to save them , and GOD WILL RECEIVE them unto Himself

    your false teaching is rubbish , hogwash garbage
    Jesus had a mission to come to earth , shed his blood and whosoever believes that God shed His blood and asks Jesus for forgiveness Shall be Saved

    Water baptism does not save anyone of anything , we are expected to ask for forgiveness each day for the sins we commit , not get water dunked everyday
    Water baptism is to show publicly that we have accepted God

    Jesus Saves !! not a tub of water
     
  18. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    Atheist use this same logic against prayer btw. How does speaking words result in healing or recovery, cancer being gone, money coming or of nowhere or a blessing? If anything that sounds more insane then baptism dealing with sins. Also baptism resulted in washing of sins for Paul in acts 22:16... the effect is spiritual. A physical action that activates something in the spiritual realm. What “Christians” don’t understand is that athere’s a spiritual realm we can’t see. 1 peter 3:21 even explains how it’s not about the water itself... the water itself does nothing. The removal of dirt in water doesn’t save you but the act saves in the spiritual realm due to the ressurextion of Christ. It’s the same way repentance helps someone move on from sins and makes them white as snow.. it’s a physical action doing something in the spiritual realm. Also what you don’t understand is that the Bible says what? Neither is there salvation in any other name... when you baptize in Jesus Name you’re using that name to save you. When you call on Jesus for the Holy Ghost you’re using the name to save you. So being baptized in Jesus Name doesn’t go against the theology that Jesus saves it only emphasizes it. The fact that I believe in Jesus Name baptism shows how much power I believe that name has and how his name can and will save.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  19. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    The theif was alive during the 5th despisation of time. Christ didn’t die and ressurect yet... the gospel wasn’t complete... crusifiction, burial, ressurextion. As I stated in my op with scriptural support crusifiction (repentance), burial (baptism) resurrection (Holy Ghost reception). And when did the Holy Ghost finally come inside people like the prophecy of Joel said and when were they able to start baptizing in Jesus Name? After Christ death and resurrection during the grace period or 6th period of time we live in now. Now one must repent, be baptized, and get the Holy Ghost. The transition is official now... it wasn’t when Jesus was still alive from law into grace. The transitio Men haven’t changed the Bible it says to repent, be baptized in Jesus Name, ger the Holy Ghost. We are instructed to now do that. As someone said already how can one be buried with Christ and as I added ressurect with him if he didn’t die and ressurect yet?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  20. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because one of the last things out of Jesus mouth before He ascended into heaven was: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matt 28:19)
     
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