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Featured The truth about baptism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JESUS=G.O.A.T, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The name of the Son is Jesus.
    But Jesus is not the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit.
    "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory", it is the Word, the only-begotten Son of the Father, who became flesh, born of Mary, and is named Jesus Christ. "You shall call Him Jesus" (Luke 1:31)

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  2. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He's a Oneness/Jesus Only person (Non Trinitarian)
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Well, no. No one would have described a burial as a baptism in the ancient world.

    Christian baptism does. Because Christian baptism is a specific thing: it means burial with Christ, death with Christ, being crucified with Christ, being clothed with Christ, it means remission of sin, receiving the Holy Spirit, and new birth.

    As GingerBeer pointed out, it also can simply mean "wash"; which is why in Mark's Gospel it can describe the washing of various objects as "baptism",

    "and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches." (Mark 7:4)

    καὶ ἀπό ἀγορᾶς ἐὰν μὴ βαπτίσωνται οὐκ ἐσθίουσιν καὶ ἄλλα πολλά ἐστιν ἃ παρέλαβον κρατεῖν βαπτισμοὺς ποτηρίων καὶ ξεστῶν καὶ χαλκίων καὶ κλινῶν (Mark 7:4)

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I asked a simple question what is the name of the son.
     
  5. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    But.. if we consider the context in which the word baptized is utilized and if we are aware that baptism means buried with Christ.... wouldn’t common sense say that the dip/submerge meaning fits better? I mean what better way to be buried like Christ then to be “buried” or submerged in water? I mean I just don’t get what the problem is.
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It's simply that what a word means on its own, and its use in a specific sense are important to keep in mind. Christian baptism is a very specific sense of the word "baptism", referring to the Sacrament instituted by Christ for His Church.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  7. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I see I understand where you’re coming from now.
     
  8. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I believe the essence of baptism is submerged but I think we miss the point when we pick over the details like that.

    The example of Acts John's disciples were baptised in Jesus' name only yet Jesus instructs himself says "...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

    It's a spell and saying a string of words together in a specific order doesn't make the job "more done" God looks at the heart
     
  9. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    But the name is Jesus though that’s why they baptized in Jesus Name it’s not cause it doesn’t matter. I mean the name of the son is Jesus
     
  10. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Something you do, such as believing that Jesus is your lord and savior, perhaps?
     
  11. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    We've been over our differing perspectives regarding faith in another thread, as you know, so I will not go into that again.

    God bless.
     
  12. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    OK. We will just stick to implying that people add to the saving work of Christ, when we discuss things that other people do, but not things that we do. It's much easier to maintain our beliefs that way.

    God bless you too.
     
  13. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I remember that thread you two went at it. That was one of the last ones I read before I left for a bit
     
  14. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    You may want to go back and carefully read what I wrote. It's unfortunate that you've come to the conclusion that that is what I was doing.

    And no one needs to or should take my word for anything, Scripture is available for people to read and study.
     
  15. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Yep. Which is why I'm not going there again. It's not about what I say either, it's about what the word of God says.
     
  16. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is something that we can agree on.
     
  17. Brokenhill

    Brokenhill Praise God, i'm satisifed.

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    I agree with the OP, a couple thoughts thoughts / counter-counter-points that I didn't notice when skimming through the thread:

    1. Regardless of the Greek definition, of "baptizo"/"baptisma"/etc...the bible defines baptism itself that it is indeed FULL SUBMERSION in water:
    Acts 8:38-39 "...and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away..."
    Between this passage and the analogy of Romans 6 of being buried with Christ, the only logical conclusion is that water baptism=full submersion. You don't bury a person when they die by sprinkling them with dirt--they go 6 feet under. The Ethiopian couldn't have "come out" of the water if he hadn't been under it!

    2. Baptism is NOT a work of man. Baptism, even just looking at the physical side, is SUBMISSION to someone else. You keep yourself still and maybe plug your nose, but that's it! Someone else puts you under the water...so it's not a doing of your own in that sense.
    Let's take a look at marriage for a second...during the ceremony, a man and a woman exchange rings +verbally state "I do"...both of which are physically representing their oath. However, it's GOD who actually seals them in the bond of marraige...invisibly. Likewise, it is God who washes away sins by His grace because we chose to submit to Him. Invisibly we are granted the Holy Spirit as a part of water baptism--God's grace again...you can't jump up and snatch the HS out of the air.

    If baptism is a work then so is believing in Christ. Then so is repenting. Then so is "saying the sinners prayer" or "accepting Christ as your savior in your heart"...those would all be works attempting to earn salvation if you honestly look at them the way some of you are looking at baptism.

    The truth is, is that even though salvation is a gift from God, and even though Christ's righteousness and work saves us fully, and that we can never earn our salvation...
    God clearly says that we must DO things to ACCEPT HIS GIFT.
    God's love is unconditional.
    God's gift of slavation is freely offered.
    But God has EXPECTATIONS to accept that gift...in the form of HOLINESS (both heart changes and works of righteousness), or else He won't CHOOSE for to be apart of His kingdom.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
    God's plan is to:
    A: Understand Jesus/The Gospel (Romans 10:17; Ephesians 1:13-14)
    B: Believe/trust in it to the point of ACTION (John 3:16; Hebrews 11)
    C: Confess Christ as Lord (Matthew 10:32)
    D: Repent of your sins (Luke 5:32)
    E: Be baptized in water + the HS for the REMISSION OF SINS (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21)

    In short: God baptizes us into His Son's body...the water does not save us, though it is necessary as part of the process of salvation because God said so.

    3. "Calling on the Name of the LORD" is actually baptism: Acts 22:16 "Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’ Baptism is HOW we call on His Name HIS WAY.

    4. It's sad that this topic is considered "controversial" when the Bible is so black and white on baptism.

    _____

    5. James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

    I repeat, salvation is through God's grace + Jesus' work ALONE, but we should want to do the will of the Father because He is so gracious! God does not choose sinners to come into fellowship, but only those in Christ who have an active life of repentance and holiness.
     
  18. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    sorry my post had some typos. It's "not a spell" is what I intended to say. The words we use of course have meaning and value but we can elevate them to levels never intended. For those who value the trinity they will always baptise in the name of the Father, Son and HS and with scriptural support. I suspect you don't value the trinity and is part of the agenda of this post.

    Acts is a bit of a renegade book 'cause it doesn't follow the rules. We read of how tongues should work in 1 Corinthians 12-14 yet it doesn't even look close to this in Acts. We read of how we are to baptise yet again Acts does it's own thing. There could be an argument of different things happening here which is certainly the take of charismatics with regards to tongues. Charismatics however don't redefine the gift of tongues they expand the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit which they would argue is a subsequent experience outside of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and certainly Acts is on their side.

    Charismatics argue both the gift of tongues and the manifestation of tongues from the result of the baptism of the HS can exist at the same time valuing both 1 Corinthians and Acts; this is why they look different. What it seems you are doing is crossing out the language of the great commission to argue that the way it was done in Acts is the right way (suggesting the great commission has been added or has been compromised) It's not a position I'm willing to take. If you can rephrase to show how you value the language of the great commission and value how Acts 19 demonstrates baptism at the same time than I might be with you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  19. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I understand but no what I’m saying is acts doesn’t contradict the great commission at all. Jesus is the name of the son for sure and based off scripture you can argue name of the other two as well. So when Jesus said baptized in the name of this or that he means the actual name of this or that is what I’m suggesting. But for sure name of the son. So when they baptized in Jesus Name it seems to be simply doing it in the name of the son/father/Holy Ghost. If I say write a check in my sons name for example would his name be son? Or is son just who he is to me? That’s where I’m getting at I may post scriptures also to support arguments for Jesus not just being the name of the son but name of the other two also to show value of the commission vs acts 19. I appreciate the suggestion
     
  20. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Romans 10:13King James Version (KJV)
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

    saved by the blood washingof the lamb of God

    You must be born-again as Jesus taught to be saved


    When Jesus hung on the cross and spoke to the thief who accepted Jesus as the Christ and asked to be remembered when Jesus entered in to HIS Kingdom Jesus said to him
    Today you shall be in Paradise with me

    No He did not say , too late for you - no soup for you as you did not get dunked in water , :)

    Everyone should be baptized , it is an outwardly sign to people that shows the inwardly changed of the heart and mind by accepting Jesus as LORD Almighty

    Men have been changing the teaching of the bible and is it often a bad thing

    Blood washed in the Name of the One True God - the Alpha and the Omega

    This is part of the "Oneness' movement that has caused many to believe you are not saved unless you are dunked in water -- so all the people who with their dying breath come to accept Christ as savoir are wasting their breath as they do not have enough time to get to a river to be dunked .. this is a falsehood

    Sorry Scriptural teachings should not be changed
     
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