Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

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bekkilyn

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Agreed.

Those who say that they are ignoring the Bible Sabbath and are choosing instead to make up an extra-biblical tradition for week-day-1 instead of obeying one of God's Ten Commandments - are certainly making a factual statement. I don't agree that they make the right choice in that case -- but I do agree that they have free will and can choose such a course if they wish.

It's not so much of an "instead" as it is that the tradition of meeting on the first day of the week has been practiced since the time of the apostles (Pentacost, etc.) and Gentile Christians had never been subject to the laws of the Old Covenant, so would not have been going to synagogue or observing a Sabbath unless they had been converts to Judaism before becoming Chrisitians. (i.e. the "God-fearers").

Agreed. But if you take a look at the list in my signature line - they all argue for a "bent Sabbath" one that points to week-day-1. And they argue the unbent version is for Jews.

They are likely arguing for the spirit of the law vs. letter of the law in such cases.
 
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BobRyan

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It's not so much of an "instead" as it is that the tradition of meeting on the first day of the week has been practiced since the time of the apostles (Pentacost, etc.)

There is no "tradition of meeting" on week day 1 in the Bible.

There are "every day meetings" in Acts 2
There is a "one time meeting" in Acts
And there is "Sabbath after Sabbath" As well as "every Sabbath" meetings in Acts 18:4.

But here is no "every week-day-1 meeting and gospel preaching" in all of the NT.

For that tradition - you have to go to later events.

and Gentile Christians had never been subject to the laws of the Old Covenant

on the contrary

Lev 19:18 loving your neighbor
Deut 6:5 loving God with all your heart
Ex 20:7 not taking God's name in vain.

Paul goes out of his way in Ephesians 6:2 to appeal to the TEN Commandments as a unit of still-binding law.

And gentiles specifically singled out for keeping the Bible Sabbath even in the OT - as we see in Isaiah 56:5-8
 
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bekkilyn

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There is no "tradition of meeting" on week day 1 in the Bible.

There are "every day meetings" in Acts 2
There is a "one time meeting" in Acts
And there is "Sabbath after Sabbath" As well as "every Sabbath" meetings in Acts 18:4.

But here is no "every week-day-1 meeting and gospel preaching" in all of the NT.

For that tradition - you have to go to later events.

Acts 18:4 is a reference to Paul regularly visiting the synagogues. Paul was a Jew and used this opportunity to preach the gospel to the Jews there. It is not something that Gentile Christians would have been doing.

Between all the first day of the week meetings in the NT along with a number of early century writers (long before Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church), it is pretty well established that Christians had been regularly meeting on the first day of the week.

on the contrary

Lev 19:18 loving your neighbor
Deut 6:5 loving God with all your heart
Ex 20:7 not taking God's name in vain.

Gentile Christians would not necessarily have been aware of any of these scriptures before becoming Christians, so would not have been subject to any laws or customs within those scriptures.

Jesus made no mention of Gentiles observing the Sabbath, for example, (he didn't even address it, though he did address the other nine in his sermon on the mount) and the ten commandments were not included in the things that the later Jerusalem council with the apostles asked Gentiles within the newly developing church to do for the sake of unity between Jewish and Gentile Christians.

The decision was for Gentiles to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. (Acts 21:25)

Paul goes out of his way in Ephesians 6:2 to appeal to the TEN Commandments as a unit of still-binding law.

Paul's purpose wasn't to put Christians back under law, but to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. His advice concerning Christian behavior in general was with that purpose in mind to be good witnesses to non-believers within households and the culture at large.

And gentiles specifically singled out for keeping the Bible Sabbath even in the OT - as we see in Isaiah 56:5-8

Isaiah is not writing of Gentile Christians. He is writing about Gentiles who bind themselves to the Lord of Israel and would therefore be bound by the same covenant of law as the Jews of that time. Christ had not yet died on the cross to fulfill the purpose of the law, so the Old Covenant was still binding.
 
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BobRyan

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Acts 18:4 is a reference to Paul regularly visiting the synagogues. Paul was a Jew and used this opportunity to preach the gospel to the Jews there. It is not something that Gentile Christians would have been doing.

what about Gentile non-Christians??

4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. 5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

we see in this example "Every Sabbath" - Gospel preaching to BOTH Jews and gentiles.

Now here is the "Elephant in the living room" for those against the Bible Sabbath - there is no mention here of "every week-day-1" Gospel preaching in the NT -- EVER! Not even one reference to "Every week-day-1 we invite our gentile friends to our weekly worship service - that is our new day of worship".

No not one.
 
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BobRyan

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Between all the first day of the week meetings in the NT along with a number of early century writers

There are exactly "zero" references in the NT to weekly week-day-1 worship services being every week.
There are exactly "zero" references in the NT claiming that week-day-1 is the Lord's day.

Catholic Answers makes a few amazing claims
Albeit some wishful thinking added in at the last
==================================

"While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday," Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church. Quite apart from the biblical proof of the apostolic Church’s authority to teach in God’s name (Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday."

===================================== end quote

That was the "Sunday is the new Christian Sabbath" argument.

Still a few details that are worth noting.



=======================

They fail to find even ONE text saying:

"from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

"Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

"they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

" 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

"the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13.

Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT.
 
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BobRyan

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and Gentile Christians had never been subject to the laws of the Old Covenant

on the contrary

Lev 19:18 loving your neighbor
Deut 6:5 loving God with all your heart
Ex 20:7 not taking God's name in vain.

Paul goes out of his way in Ephesians 6:2 to appeal to the TEN Commandments as a unit of still-binding law.

And gentiles specifically singled out for keeping the Bible Sabbath even in the OT - as we see in Isaiah 56:5-8

Gentile Christians would not necessarily have been aware of any of these scriptures before becoming Christians,

Non-Christian gentiles in the synagogues "every Sabbath" as we see in Acts 18 would have known scripture.

Acts 17:11 non-Christians knew enough to "Study the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken by Paul were so" -- Bereans in that case.

so would not have been subject to any laws or customs within those scriptures.

Jesus made no mention of Gentiles observing the Sabbath,

Jesus said "Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

Jesus spoke the Ten Commandments as we saw in Hebrews 8:6-10

Jesus argued against the idea that He was teaching rebellion or extinction for the Word of God in Matthew 5.

for example, (he didn't even address it, though he did address the other nine in his sermon on the mount)

Jesus never mentioned Exodus 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain" -- that is the only one of the Ten Commandments not quoted even in part - in the NT

which as we all know - proves nothing against the Ten Commandments
 
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BobRyan

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the ten commandments were not included in the things that the later Jerusalem council with the apostles asked Gentiles within the newly developing church to do for the sake of unity between Jewish and Gentile Christians.

The decision was for Gentiles to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. (Acts 21:25)
meat of strangled animals?? Leviticus 17

True in Acts 15 and in Acts 21 there is no reference at all to

1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

None of that is found in Acts 15 or Acts 21.

And your point?

Do you suggest that since we are gentiles we burn our bibles leaving only Acts 15 and Acts 21 in??

I think we both know you cannot make that recommendation.
 
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bekkilyn

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Any non-Christian Gentiles in the synagogues were Gentiles who had converted to *Judaism*, and who were otherwise known as "God-fearers". These Gentiles would have observed all the laws of Moses and Jewish customs, including circumcision and observing Sabbath, just like the Jews did. It does not in any way indicate that Gentile converts to Christianity, who had not been "God-fearers", would have ever observed any Jewish traditions. They would have been converting directly from Paganism and likely wouldn't have ever been allowed into a synagogue.

These Gentiles were also not required to start observing Mosaic law, with the exception of what the Jerusalem council decided (for the sake of unity, not salvation), once they became Christians.

There are numerous places in the NT that describe Christians meeting on the first day of the week. Where are all the numerous places in the NT that describe *Gentile* Christians (who had not previously converted to Judaism) meeting on the Sabbath?

Hebrews 5 is about the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

Oddly, not one mention of the Sabbath in Matthew 5 or even Matthew 6. Perhaps because *Jesus* fulfilled the purpose of the Sabbath (and the Law in general) at his death on the cross. "Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-29)
 
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BobRyan

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Any non-Christian Gentiles in the synagogues were Gentiles who had converted to *Judaism*, and who were otherwise known as "God-fearers".

Agreed. Not a lot of pagans there


These Gentiles would have observed all the laws of Moses and Jewish customs, including circumcision and observing Sabbath,

the god-fearing gentiles were not circumcised.

Gentiles that did fully convert and were circumcised were called Jews. See Ephesians 2.

Eph 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world

Gentiles that converted and were circumcised - were considered Jews and could participate in the passover and enter the temple.

So then the Ethiopian eunuch – probably came all that way “to celebrate the Passover” – because he was also circumcised.

The "court of the gentiles" was where uncirmcumcised gentiles were restricted, no matter that they worship the one true God.

from: The Court of the Gentiles (Herod's Temple )
The Court of the Gentiles
JEWISH_TEMPLE00000011.gif
The entire Temple compound was considered holy, but it became increasingly more holy as one entered farther in, from east to west. King Herod had enclosed the outer court with colonnades and it was referred to as the Court of the Gentiles because the "gentiles" (non-Jews) were permitted to enter the Temple area. They could walk within in it but they were forbidden to go any further than the outer court. They were excluded from entering into any of the inner courts, and warning signs in Greek and Latin were placed that gave warning that the penalty for such trespass was death. The Romans permitted the Jewish authorities to carry out the death penalty for this offence, even if the offender were a Roman citizen. It was for this alleged crime that Paul was attacked and nearly beaten to death by an angry crowd during his last visit to Jerusalem (Acts 21:27-32).

...

Anyone was allowed to enter the outer area, which was therefore called the Court of the Gentiles. The actual Temple was enclosed by a balustrade, and at the entrances to it were warning notices, one of them is now in a museum in Istanbul. It says that foreigners have freedom of access provided they do not go beyond the balustrade which went all around the central edifice and which no uncircumcised could cross without incurring the death penalty.


But Gentiles could choose to worship the one true God – including in the synagogues – and not be circumcised… and so could not observe Passover.

Cornelius was most certainly a god-fearing uncircumcised gentile who would NOT have been “observing Passover” with Peter.

Acts 10

Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually


26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29 That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

In Acts 10 -- Peter is talking about someone whom he would not be observing Passover with under normal circumstances because though Cornelius was a god-fearing gentile - he was still considered an uncircumcised gentile, not allowed in the temple (though they were allowed in the synagogues and in the court of the gentiles at the Temple) , and not allowed to celebrate Passover.
 
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Dave-W

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You said it was the day of destruction. These verses prove that is not true.
It is and they prove it. He was there in the spirit.
 
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FreeAtLast

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It is and they prove it. He was there in the spirit.

Ummm no. Just you saying it does not prove anything. I'm not going to belabor the point with you, the first day of the week, the L-rd's day, Sunday, is the day Yeshua resurrected and the day the early church met. That means it's a perfect day for Believers to meet. Actually ANY day is a perfect day for Believers to meet and worship G-d. Any day and EVERY day is great!

John was in the spirit on the L-rd's Day, and to me that says it was not the "day of destruction" since that has not happened yet, but of course you are free to disagree. There are no Scriptures that support your opinion and it really is not relevant to the discussion in my opinion, so, I'll just leave it there and you do with it as you choose. Shalom.
 
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BobRyan

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These Gentiles were also not required to start observing Mosaic law, with the exception of what the Jerusalem council decided (for the sake of unity, not salvation), once they became Christians.

Problem with downsizing the bible to a handful of verses in Acts 15 and Acts 21

Acts 15 and in Acts 21 there is no reference at all to

1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

None of that is found in Acts 15 or Acts 21. And it does not matter because they still had to comply with it.

So then -- your point?




There are numerous places in the NT that describe Christians meeting on the first day of the week.


Agreed. A very few "one time meetings" are recorded in the NT. Nothing "weekly" in terms of a worship service or a day of rest mentioned at all in the NT - other than the Bible Sabbath.
 
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klutedavid

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What is it with this perverted Sabbath gospel? Keeping the Sabbath in order to secure salvation is certainly a "different" gospel and is a disturbing false doctrine to say the least! Another disturbing teaching by Ellen White is..... those who reject God's memorial of creatorship--the Bible Sabbath--choosing to worship and honor Sunday...will receive the mark of the beast." :eek:

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
Hello Danthemaiman.

I found that interpretation extraordinary.

Just goes to show that you don't need to accurately read the scripture, just make it up as you go.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Bob Ryan.

Nice to see your still posting.
There is no "tradition of meeting" on week day 1 in the Bible.
Yes there is Bob.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread...

Nearly all scholars accept this.

We also have numerous church letters from the second and third centuries, all stating they gathered on the first day.
There are "every day meetings" in Acts 2
Exactly, you can gather on as many days as you please.
There is a "one time meeting" in Acts
The text does not say that Bob, the text does not say, 'one time meeting'.
And there is "Sabbath after Sabbath" As well as "every Sabbath" meetings in Acts 18:4.
A wonderful quotation, you need to read a few more lines. Paul announces that he is going to the Gentiles from now on.
But here is no "every week-day-1 meeting and gospel preaching" in all of the NT.
The new creation has the first day as the key day.

The New Testament clearly demonstrates that Gentiles were never under the law.
Thus the Gentiles gather on the first day, the day the apostles saw the risen Christ.
Paul goes out of his way in Ephesians 6:2 to appeal to the TEN Commandments as a unit of still-binding law.
Read the first verse (6:1) and verse two becomes clear.
And gentiles specifically singled out for keeping the Bible Sabbath even in the OT - as we see in Isaiah 56:5-8
No, because the prophet Isaiah was not written for a Gentile audience.
 
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the first day of the week, the L-rd's day, Sunday,

The Bible never calls week-day-1 the "Lord's Day" and we all know it. If you had such a text you would have quoted it by now.

Sunday is the day Yeshua resurrected

That is true.



and the day the early church met.

They met "every day" in Acts 2... so then Sabbaths included
They meet "every Sabbath" for Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4
Nothing at all like that for week-day-1

John was in the spirit on the L-rd's Day,

True - that would be the Bible Sabbath for the NT says "the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
 
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BobRyan

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in Acts 15 and in Acts 21 there is no reference at all to

1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

None of that is found in Acts 15 or Acts 21.

And your point?

Do you suggest that since we are gentiles we burn our bibles leaving only Acts 15 and Acts 21 in??

I think we both know you cannot make that recommendation.

Oddly, not one mention of the Sabbath in Matthew 5 or even Matthew 6. Perhaps because *Jesus* fulfilled the purpose of the Sabbath

Matt 5 does not mention

1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents

5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

None of that is found in Acts 15 or Acts 21.

And your point?

Is it your claim that Christ came so Christians can take God's name in vain without giving it a second thought? I think we both know that is not true.

Matthew 5 does say this -
glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Rev 14:12 saints "keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

"what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

The distinction between lost and saved in Romans 8:4-9 is that the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they"
 
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FreeAtLast

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The Bible never calls week-day-1 the "Lord's Day" and we all know it. If you had such a text you would have quoted it by now.

LOL. Bob, what you believe is your choice. As to what "we all know", sorry, but your facts are missing. Opinions don't count.

What we know is the Scriptures tell us that Yeshua was resurrected on the first day of the week, and THIS day is called the L-rd's Day. John was in the spirit on the L-rd's Day. The early church met on the first day of the week, call it what you like, it's a side argument, not worth arguing.
 
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FreeAtLast

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They met "every day" in Acts 2... so then Sabbaths included

So what? No one said they didn't meet on the 7th day! They met EVERY day. You are saying they didn't meet on Sunday, the Scriptures say yes they did. So, your comment makes no sense.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.


True - that would be the Bible Sabbath for the NT says "the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

Actually, it was not the 7th day at all, it was what the Scripture said it was, the L-RD'S DAY. Not Sabbath.
 
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Hi David - -

you said there is a "tradition" of keeping week-day-1 as the weekly day of worship -- but you only found a one-time incident where they ever met for a meeting on week-day-1.

By contrast "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 they met for gospel preaching.

A "one time meeting" does not "a tradition" make.

We also have numerous church letters from the second and third centuries, all stating they gathered on the first day.

After the Apostles died - you do have a few references to a week-day-1 meeting. No doubt.



No, because the prophet Isaiah was not written for a Gentile audience.

Until you read it.

Isaiah 56:1-8 specifically speaks to the point of gentiles observing Sabbath - and we both know it.
 
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