It's Not Too Soon to Debate Gun Control

[TLK Valentine]

Such as what? Are you saying gender is the main culprit in causing a mass shooting?

Not the main culprit, but we can't ignore the discrepancy.

I'm certainly not saying mental illness isn't the main factor, but if that was so, then don't you think a serious study into gun violence as a mental health issue is merited?

 

[Aldebaran]

Not the main culprit, but we can't ignore the discrepancy.

I'm certainly not saying mental illness isn't the main factor, but if that was so, then don't you think a serious study into gun violence as a mental health issue is merited?

Not if they're just going to decide right off the bat that gun violence is only a mental health issue and then build up a case to support that assumption. That would be no different than a prosecutor ignoring evidence that doesn't support his assumption of guilt against the person he's prosecuting. If you want to know the real cause of something, you have to go into it with an open mind rather than an agenda.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Not if they're just going to decide right off the bat that gun violence is only a mental health issue and then build up a case to support that assumption.

Ok then, if it's not a mental health issue, what is it?

 

[expos4ever]

In all Candor we shouldn't even be having this debate, The empirical data is clear; the experience from other countries is clear; and the common-sense arguments are clear: access to guns in the United States needs to be greatly restricted from what it is now.

 

[TLK Valentine]

In all Candor we shouldn't even be having this debate, The empirical data is clear; the experience from other countries is clear; and the common-sense arguments are clear: access to guns in the United States needs to be greatly restricted from what it is now.

I'd settle for "regulated."

 

[majj27]

Ok then, if it's not a mental health issue, what is it?

Since the one organization really well-equipped to look into (the CDC) this is forbidden by law to do so, I guess we'll never know.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Since the one organization really well-equipped to look into (the CDC) this is forbidden by law to do so, I guess we'll never know.

Just so.

Seems that the reason we only ever get "thoughts and prayers" after every bloodbath is that's all the GOP will allow.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Just so.

Seems that the reason we only ever get "thoughts and prayers" after every bloodbath is that's all the GOP will allow.

Well, that and Walls/Immigration bans/ More Cops and jails…

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, that and Walls/Immigration bans/ More Cops and jails…

When the shooter is a nonWhite, we can regulate them pretty easily; for a White shooter, it's "thoughts and prayers" all the way down.

Guns cannot be regulated; nonWhites -- piece of cake.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

When the shooter is a nonWhite, we can regulate them pretty easily; for a White shooter, it's "thoughts and prayers" all the way down.

Guns cannot be regulated; nonWhites -- piece of cake.

I don’t think they regulate firearms for non-white shooters though. It is always regulate the ethnicity or religion of the shooter.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I don’t think they regulate firearms for non-white shooters though. It is always regulate the ethnicity or religion of the shooter.

Ah... pronoun trouble. That's what I meant by regulate "them." The minorities, not the guns.

 

[Aldebaran]

Ok then, if it's not a mental health issue, what is it?

It sounds like someone has already decided it is....
In reality, it's on a case by case basis. If a gang member executes another gang member with a gun, is that mental illness? How about a guy who holds up a convenience store and then shoots the clerk on the way out to eliminate a witness? Or the person who breaks into a home and shoots the husband after raping the wife and then making off with whatever material things they wanted?

It may be easy to keep talking about gun violence as a "mental illness", but it hardly makes sense when you look at each case individually to then make a blanket conclusion that mental illness is the cause of gun violence.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It sounds like someone has already decided it is....
In reality, it's on a case by case basis. If a gang member executes another gang member with a gun, is that mental illness? How about a guy who holds up a convenience store and then shoots the clerk on the way out to eliminate a witness? Or the person who breaks into a home and shoots the husband after raping the wife and then making off with whatever material things they wanted?

It may be easy to keep talking about gun violence as a "mental illness", but it hardly makes sense when you look at each case individually to then make a blanket conclusion that mental illness is the cause of gun violence.

Fair enough -- rather then investigate all the cases, how about we focus on one specific case: Mass shootings, for example?

 

[Aldebaran]

Fair enough -- rather then investigate all the cases, how about we focus on one specific case: Mass shootings, for example?

Is that what you'd like the CDC to focus on and then make a blanket diagnosis for the cause of "gun violence" in general? Don't forget that mass shooting deaths are only a very tiny percentage of people killed by guns. It would be like taking the cause of terrorism deaths and applying it to all forms of unnatural death. It wouldn't serve any practical purpose.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Is that what you'd like the CDC to focus on and then make a blanket diagnosis for the cause of "gun violence" in general?

No, I'd like them to examine gun violence on a case-by-case basis... starting with mass shootings.

Who knows? If we examine the problems, we might actually come up with solutions...

Don't forget that mass shooting deaths are only a very tiny percentage of people killed by guns.

If you're saying their deaths are statistically insignificant, that's true enough... and yet, those deaths are the ones that get national attention -- even our president and congresscritters offer up their thoughts and prayers....

...and then the next one happens, and the people (especially those close to the victims,) ask, "Why?"

That's the interesting question... we already know why the drug dealer, the gang member, or the terrorist kills, but these people -- that's something different.

Wouldn't it be great to know why? Maybe find some sort of common cause or at least a pattern? Maybe, just maybe -- and I know this is very optimistic -- some warning signs to look out for?

It would be like taking the cause of terrorism deaths and applying it to all forms of unnatural death. It wouldn't serve any practical purpose.

Attempting to study and predict these things "wouldn't serve any practical purpose." Must be one of the thoughts that go along with those prayers.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, I'd like them to examine gun violence on a case-by-case basis... starting with mass shootings.

Who knows? If we examine the problems, we might actually come up with solutions...

Ok, then take a single case:
A guy catches his wife sleeping with another guy. He pulls out a gun a shoots him. Why? He was enraged. Solution: Either don't sleep with the wife of another person, or ban firearm ownership by married people. Which one do you think a government agency like the CDC would recommend?

If you're saying their deaths are statistically insignificant, that's true enough... and yet, those deaths are the ones that get national attention -- even our president and congresscritters offer up their thoughts and prayers....

Yes, they do. Just as plane crashes that kill 200 people will get more national attention than 200 car accidents or swimming pool drownings that kill just as many people. Just because one has more emotional impact and therefore gets more national attention doesn't mean more should be done about that type of incident versus others.

...and then the next one happens, and the people (especially those close to the victims,) ask, "Why?"

That's the interesting question... we already know why the drug dealer, the gang member, or the terrorist kills, but these people -- that's something different.

Not really. Some of them are captured and are questioned afterwards.

Wouldn't it be great to know why? Maybe find some sort of common cause or at least a pattern? Maybe, just maybe -- and I know this is very optimistic -- some warning signs to look out for?

Yes, and many of those "signs" are traits that people normally exhibit. A person is loner, or keeps to himself and minds his own business, or is sad sometimes, or gets angry sometimes. If we use those things to label people as potential murderers, then that would become a problem in itself. Remember the Patriot Law? It was one example of what happens when you label actions or traits in people to determine what they may or may not do.

Attempting to study and predict these things "wouldn't serve any practical purpose." Must be one of the thoughts that go along with those prayers.

Go back and read the context of when I said that.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ok, then take a single case:
A guy catches his wife sleeping with another guy. He pulls out a gun a shoots him. Why? He was enraged. Solution: Either don't sleep with the wife of another person, or ban firearm ownership by married people. Which one do you think a government agency like the CDC would recommend?

Perhaps you missed the part (or deliberately ignored the part) where I specified "mass shootings."

Read it all again and come back to us, Alde.

 

[Aldebaran]

Perhaps you missed the part (or deliberately ignored the part) where I specified "mass shootings."

Read it all again and come back to us, Alde.

Focusing on only one type of shooting and then calling it a study on "gun violence" is just using tunnel vision, which is not the type of study that is based on the big picture. Now, if you want to paint all gun use as being somehow related to mass shootings, that's a different (and all-too familiar) story.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Focusing on only one type of shooting and then calling it a study on "gun violence" is just using tunnel vision, which is not the type of study that is based on the big picture. Now, if you want to paint all gun use as being somehow related to mass shootings, that's a different (and all-too familiar) story.

If you can't stick to the topic of mass shootings, you're not going to be able to follow the discussion. And you'll have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

[Aldebaran]

If you can't stick to the topic of mass shootings, you're not going to be able to follow the discussion. And you'll have nobody to blame but yourself.

Are you saying that it IS too soon to debate gun control? Hint: It's the topic. See top of thread.