The Church is absolutely unnecessary.

[Devin P]

As far as I remember the only thing we as Christians are commanded to keep is the Lord's supper. No penteccost, no easter, no christmas.

The apostles kept passover, unleavened bread, Pentecost and the 7th day Sabbath.

You're commanded to keep the 10 commandments right? Well, the 4th one is violated each week by most denominations. All thanks to the early Catholic church trying to separate themselves from Jews and the early Christians who (just as those who wrote the NT did) kept the Torah.

They even passed laws allowing them to excommunicate Christians found keeping Sabbath and the feast days. It later evolved into killing those found not observing the holidays they worship now - Easter and Christmas, and the 1st day Sabbath.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Our obedience to His word is how we are to show our evidence. Wearing tassles/fringes, avoiding unclean animals, celebrating the holy days/feast days/ appointed times, keeping and celebrating the Sabbath, etc.

In doing all of these we are separated fromthe world instantly, and just simply walking down the street we are being a light and a testimony to the world.

Just as showing up to a building, dancing in front of the stage, singing on the worship team, ushering, do not equal salvation either. Some will say they are a product of salvation, but not really. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit, not their position in the "church" or their service to a building or a "pastor".

We are separated from the world by the way we live our lives, rejecting the world and choosing Jesus above all else.

Also, a guy could go to a "church" serve as a deacon, preach even, but then goes to Vegas, gambles, drinks and hangs out with the heathens and he will tell you on Sunday he is separated from the world because of where he is on Sunday. That is the delusion of the institutionalized mainstream church system.

 

[Francis Drake]

Our obedience to His word is how we are to show our evidence. Wearing tassles/fringes, avoiding unclean animals, celebrating the holy days/feast days/ appointed times, keeping and celebrating the Sabbath, etc.

In doing all of these we are separated fromthe world instantly, and just simply walking down the street we are being a light and a testimony to the world.

I completely disagree with this.
Noah was separated from the world with "extreme prejudice", yet he never involved himself in all this palaver either before or after the flood.
Abraham was set apart from the world and never did all this.

The Pharisees did these things, yet remained completely in the world and excluded from the kingdom.

Peter on the roof top was rebuked for refusing God's command to so something against the law, kill and eat an unclean animal.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

You may as well say that Christ is absolutely unnecessary.

Would Jesus exist without the church? Yes, he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

Jesus did not come to build a temple system but a church made of flesh.

 

[David Kent]

The apostles kept passover, unleavened bread, Pentecost and the 7th day Sabbath.

You're commanded to keep the 10 commandments right? Well, the 4th one is violated each week by most denominations. All thanks to the early Catholic church trying to separate themselves from Jews and the early Christians who (just as those who wrote the NT did) kept the Torah.

They even passed laws allowing them to excommunicate Christians found keeping Sabbath and the feast days. It later evolved into killing those found not observing the holidays they worship now - Easter and Christmas, and the 1st day Sabbath.

How can you expect to keep the law if the Jews couldn't?

• Acts 15:1-29n And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and aid, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
• 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
• 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
• 4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
• 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
• 6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
• 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
• 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
• 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
• 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
• 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
• 12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
• 13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
• 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
• 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
• 16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
• 17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
• 18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
• 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
• 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
• 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
• 22Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
• 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
• 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
• 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
• 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
• 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
• 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[Devin P]

I completely disagree with this.
Noah was separated from the world with "extreme prejudice", yet he never involved himself in all this palaver either before or after the flood.
Abraham was set apart from the world and never did all this.

Noah understood clean and unclean animals - Genesis 7:2
Noah also offered one of each clean animal up to God as a burnt first fruit offering, something only written about in Torah - Genesis 8:20

Also, Abraham did obey and keep God's Holy Law - Genesis 26:5

The Pharisees did these things, yet remained completely in the world and excluded from the kingdom.

No. The Pharisees believed that their observance to the law justified and saved them. That is wrong. It's faith that comes first, that then is followed and perfected by works. Not works first, that then perfects faith.

Not only did they have it backwards, but they also made man-made laws and made these man-made laws and traditions of more importance than the laws of God. As Peter mentions in Acts 10.

Peter on the roof top was rebuked for refusing God's command to so something against the law, kill and eat an unclean animal.

In the 1st century ad, Jews had a man-made law, that prevented any jew from spreading the gospel to gentiles. It went as far as to call gentiles dogs, that they were unclean, and couldn't be fellowshipped with, that they couldn't be eaten with, and if you were a jew, I wasn't to enter into your home, nor you into mine.

As Peter himself points out,

Acts 10:27-33
27And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

Right there Peter reveals the intent of the vision. It had nothing to do with food, but revealed to Peter that the gift he had been given, wasn't just to the Jews, but to anyone that had faith in Jesus. Peter had the vision three times, and remember, there were three gentiles that showed up to his door.

30And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. 33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Peter himself, had no idea what God was intending up until that point. Therefore, when Cornelius here is saying "to hear all things that are commanded thee of God" he's not referring to what God has commanded him in his coming to the house of Cornelius, because up until Peter said that, he had no idea. He's referring to the law, the very thing that was unfamiliar to the gentiles. If then you continue, and read on:

Acts 10:34-35
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

This is Peter again acknowledging that God was sent to the very people Jews banned Him from being administered to - Gentiles. Up until this point, because God divorced Israel (the northern house/kingdom of Israel) Jews banned them from the truth and from coming near to God (since they had been scattered amongst the gentiles, and arguably lost, banned and forbidden according to the Torah to be kept apart from God until after His death - as is custom to the wife (Israel) divorced from her husband (God) for committing adultery (worshipping other "gods") according to Torah).

Then if you again, continue to read that chapter:

Acts 10:44-48
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

The highlighted portions, show the Jews being amazed that God came to the very people He according to Torah was banned from, because they realized that God died for them, just as well as for the Jews. Then in verse 47, Peter acknowledges this, by asking rhetorically, who can keep these ones from God, since He wills them to be brought near to Him?

In Isaiah 66:17, God Himself prophesies through the prophet Isaiah, about the end of times, and in the end of times, in judgement, the eaters of swine's flesh will burn in the pit with the rest of those who commit abominations. This isn't about something back in the OT, this was referencing the end of times during judgement.

 

[Devin P]

How can you expect to keep the law if the Jews couldn't?

• Acts 15:1-29n And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and aid, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

That's the key to this verse though, "Except ye be circumcised..." they taught that you had to be circumcised first to be saved. That's not true. They should believe first, and then learn more of Torah, and when they feel convicted enough to get circumcised, then they should be circumcised. Simply as a seal of their salvation, not as the cause of it. That's what they were preaching though, that circumcision was what saved them, when this isn't so.

• 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
• 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
• 4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
• 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
• 6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
• 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
• 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
• 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
• 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
• 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
• 12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
• 13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
• 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
• 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
• 16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
• 17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
• 18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
• 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
• 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

According to Torah, there are bare minimum requirements that someone must meet in order for you to be able to fellowship with them. If they did any of these things, you couldn't have anything to do with that person, therefore, this was the baseline someone had to have down before they could, as the next verse shows, learn more of the Torah.

• 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Right there, it's talking about them continuing to learn the Torah. The baseline was established before this verse. Trust me, I used to be a gentile believer, who didn't believe in Torah. When I came into this truth, it's overwhelming. It's an entirely different culture, it's a lot to learn. It's overwhelming, if you let it be, but it's not supposed to be. You're supposed to take your time, and learn. Slowly, being purified more and more in your walk as you come closer and closer to Father.

In that verse, it clearly says, that the reason they had to refrain from the things above and only those things, was because Moses is taught everywhere each sabbath. Therefore they'd be able to learn the ways and laws of God each week during Shabbat. To expect anyone to learn and keep the Torah right away is ridiculously impossible. Am I saying keep it perfectly? No, no one can. But we need to have the mind and the heart to keep His ways to the best of our ability. As Romans 7 shows, our flesh will cause us to sin, but it's our heart that matters. No one can keep it perfectly as it is, but expecting them to learn everything right off the bat is impossible. It's a journey, as that verse shows.

• 22Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
• 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
• 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
• 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
• 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
• 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
• 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Notice, that this was one letter, in one stage of this church's progression in the development of knowing God. Later on Paul writes to gentiles and teaches them the heart of keeping the feast of unleavened bread. That, and note, that this is telling them to keep the sabbath.

 

[Goatee]

Jesus is looking at the world with His head in His hands and thinking that He created the true Church, the Catholic church yet people decided to go it alone! So many weeds have sprung up in what was a well sown field!

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Jesus is looking at the world with His head in His hands and thinking that He created the true Church, the Catholic church yet people decided to go it alone! So many weeds have sprung up in what was a well sown field!

Here we go with the "true church" talk. Wonder if it ever occurred to you just how insulting that is to the body of Christ?

 

[Devin P]

Jesus is looking at the world with His head in His hands and thinking that He created the true Church, the Catholic church yet people decided to go it alone! So many weeds have sprung up in what was a well sown field!

I don't understand how people believe Catholicism is the true church when it's responsible for the adoption of paganism into the worship of billions, and is what pushed to kill the believers that kept true to the ways the apostles worshipped.

Jesus is our Priest right now. It's a mockery of what He's done and what He's doing to have any other priest aside from Him. Just as Korah's rebellion was too Aaron, so are human priests to Jesus. The idea that men can help atone and prescribe ritualistic practices for sins is unbiblical. Not even getting started on the worship and praying to the dead.

There is a true church, but it's people, not Catholicism.

 

[W2L]

Jesus is looking at the world with His head in His hands and thinking that He created the true Church, the Catholic church yet people decided to go it alone! So many weeds have sprung up in what was a well sown field!

So non catholics are weeds? May God bless you, the apostle Paul teaches that we glory in reproaches. Thank you. When we are weak we are strong.

 

[David Kent]

Jesus is looking at the world with His head in His hands and thinking that He created the true Church, the Catholic church yet people decided to go it alone! So many weeds have sprung up in what was a well sown field!

The true church Jesus created was baptist.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Constantine created the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church.

 

[Goatee]

The true church Jesus created was baptist.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Constantine created the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church.

Baptist! Lol.....that is very funny

 

[Goatee]

Here we go with the "true church" talk. Wonder if it ever occurred to you just how insulting that is to the body of Christ?

How insulting do you think it is to Christ when He can see all the thousands of different churches that have sprung up like weeds since the reformation when so many jumped ship when the seas got too rough for them!

 

[Devin P]

The true church Jesus created was baptist.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Constantine created the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church.

You can't sum up the sheep of Israel because of one thing they did. All believers before this point were baptised, and after Jesus all were baptised in His name. Just because they would baptize doesn't mean anything. We all are to be baptised, but no. Baptists came from the reformation, and that from Catholicism.

The true way Jesus made, was a way that already existed. Jesus didn't do anything that His father hadn't already. As He said, His doctrine wasn't His own, but His Fathers who sent Him. His Fathers doctrine was Torah.

Jesus's didn't make a new way, He made known and uncluttered the way that was there all along. The way that men in their arrogance and vanity had covered for the honoring of their vain traditions.

According to the very law Jesus was perfect in, it says that if anyone teaches against the Torah, or teaches things contrary to Torah, they are false and are to be stoned to death. Jesus was sinless, therefore taught nothing against or different from Torah or else He would've sinned, and those that sought to stone Him would've been right. They obviously weren't.

 

[W2L]

How insulting do you think it is to Christ when He can see all the thousands of different churches that have sprung up like weeds since the reformation when so many jumped ship when the seas got too rough for them!

They are no worse than your own church.

 

[elliott95]

The Church is absolutely unnecessary.



Hi everyone. I'd like to start a debate with regards to the necessity of church worship.

I am of the opinion that aside from enhancing your social life and having a sense of community, a church is absolutely useless. If a church becomes responsible for providing food for the needy and shelter from the homeless, then it's a different story. However, outside of those things, it is absolutely and utterly useless.

Sometime in the late medieval period, a group of Christians, who later became known as "mystics", absolutely rejected church worship and took to worshiping God their own way. This to me is brilliant. God, after all, is a personal God who resides in our hearts. There is no practical use for a church when it comes to salvation and fulfillment. It is nothing but just another business that employs people. All we really need is a Bible and our unwavering faith.

Your thoughts?

I think that without the Church, as organization and societal institution, those group of Christian mystics in the late medieval period, would simply not have been provided with the resources necessary to worship Christ in their own way. Their mystical experiences would have been with Allah of the Muslims, or with Thor, or Odin, or the Dionysian wine cults, or any of the myriad of non-Christian and even demonic forces that would rush in to fill the void.

The invisible church of the individual experiencing Christ in a personal relationship with the Divine, as experienced by those mystics, is indeed the definition of our faith. That is the experience of God and how we as individuals come to know Christ. It is a personal relationship.

But, it is through the visible Church that our eyes become open to the existence of Christ in the first place. We do not learn of Christ and the Incarnation and the Resurrection and the Pentecost through osmosis from the air. We come to know these things through the evangelists of the visible Church spreading that Good News.
There comes a point, I think, in most of our lives, when attending services, and making ourselves part of that visible church is boring. They are telling us things we already know, and have heard a thousand times before. In times like those, remember, it is not for our own edification that we are filling the pews of the visible church with our carcasses. It is so that others, who live without the benefit of Christ, may see us there, and be drawn to the crowd to find out more.

Anti-Christians the world over understand well enough the reason for a visible church, and from Riyadh to New Delhi to Beijing, they do everything in their power to drive it underground, and out of view. By shariah law, churches in the House of Islam are kept in a state of perpetual disrepair, with licenses to fix them or build new ones being withheld and given only very stingily. The Herodian instinct to destroy all traces of the Incarnation of Christ from the world remain very strong in the world even today.

'Be a light on a hill'. That is the role of the Visible Church in society today.

 

[David Kent]

Baptist! Lol.....that is very funny

Is it funny when the papal church has murdered millions of Christians? Ordered inquisitions, and crusades against believers. She truly is the harlot church of Babylon, sitting on the seven hills, drunk with the blood of the saints. Revelation 17:6

 

[Goatee]

They are no worse than your own church.

Lol....​

 

[Goatee]

Is it funny when the papal church has murdered millions of Christians? Ordered inquisitions, and crusades against believers. She truly is the harlot church of Babylon, sitting on the seven hills, drunk with the blood of the saints. Revelation 17:6

Rubbish. Complete and utter fantasy.

Not just the Catholic Church that have committed atrocities. Through all those bad times the church is still here. Guided by the Holy Spirit. Yes, it has had some nasty people in its circles but as Jesus said, the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

God bless you old buddy