Hieronymus

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God inspired Paul to use serving as a soldier as a positive metaphor:

2 Timothy 2:3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.
Ah, but here Jesus is the Commanding Officer, who commands Love in the Great Twofold Law.
Philippians 2:25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs.
That's a soldier of Christ though, not a soldier of some government.
It seems strange to use this type of metaphor if being an actual soldier is always wrong for a Christian.
Christians are supposed to be soldiers of Christ.
The Armour of God is not an armour for the wars of the world.
These are metaphors.
I continue to thank God for those who have served. God has used them for much good.
And for much bad too.
>> Again, i don't know.
Regarding WWII i think i can agree.
But especially this whole 'Clash of Civilisations' thing of the present, where the West seemingly fights the wars for the state of Israel, destroying Muslim territory, and meanwhile having their people migrate to that same West they understandably despise...
Maybe it's mainly about Oil.
But so many terrorist attacks smell fishy too...
Islam is the perfect scapegoat for false flag terrorism.
It's all driving towards some kind of New World Order, not under God.
That's why i said: the world's a stage.
Well, i hate theatre, i hate games so i'm not playing (if i can help it).
But that's my opinion and view on the matter.
 
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SteveIndy

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Yes, i agree, but...

What if someone tried to kill your family, and already killed 1 or 2 family members?
Turn the other cheek and bless your enemy?
Or kill the enemy to save the rest of your family?
You can compare that with the allied forces stopping Hitler.
USA descends from Europe, so it's a bit like family.

What if you can only get a job as a soldier?
In the past people were drafted, they had little choice, so that's different, although you could get a job as a medic in the army too.
Should you quit being a soldier when you become a Christian?

I don't know, but i think i agree with you.

There are a million "What if" scenarios and the Devil tried them all not only on Jesus during His temptation but on everyone who will choose to follow the Lamb. If I have done my job as a disciple then I have done the very best thing that can be done for my family, introduce them to my Savior, what safer thing can be done? I make no provision for the flesh, I own no guns. Would I sacrifice my own life for the life of another, yes I believe I would, and someday I may be tested, I pray not. If I make a provision to kill then my flesh will likely overrule my spirit because I have already in my mind committed myself to protect the flesh. Many, many, many, early Christians had to endure the very thing you describe and they were burnt at the stake (by other so called Christians), had their property taken from them, exiled from their homes, had their tounges cut out, drowned, and many other cruel tortures. These things were done by Zwingli, Luther, and Calvin, yet they are celebrated. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.
 
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Hieronymus

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As for the wars in the OT, i'm not sure either, because those are definitely not my favourite parts of Scripture (the books of Samuel for example i find very depressing and disheartening, confounding).
But it was about God's turf there, which is destined to be inhabited by his people, and God wants to be their King, and there were also the giant tribes that God commanded to be eradicated (Goliath and his brothers being the last ones mentioned).
So that's quite different from the ambitions of 'the powers that be'.
 
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Hieronymus

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There are a million "What if" scenarios and the Devil tried them all not only on Jesus during His temptation but on everyone who will choose to follow the Lamb. If I have done my job as a disciple then I have done the very best thing that can be done for my family, introduce them to my Savior, what safer thing can be done? I make no provision for the flesh, I own no guns. Would I sacrifice my own life for the life of another, yes I believe I would, and someday I may be tested, I pray not. If I make a provision to kill then my flesh will likely overrule my spirit because I have already in my mind committed myself to protect the flesh. Many, many, many, early Christians had to endure the very thing you describe and they were burnt at the stake (by other so called Christians), had their property taken from them, exiled from their homes, had their tounges cut out, drowned, and many other cruel tortures. These things were done by Zwingli, Luther, and Calvin, yet they are celebrated. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.
Yes, a lot is seriously wrong, with many pictures..
But not all people are Christians who aren't afraid and 'ready' to die.
And what if you can prevent a slaughter by defeating the slaughterer?
Are you also against vaccinations, where you defeat the thing that kills people? (okay, that's not the same thing, but..)
There was this story of some crazy guy entering a school with guns, to kill people.
An employee, a Christian woman, carried a gun (concealed of course), and shot the guy before he could start his shooting spree, saving a lot of lives.
 
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SteveIndy

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Yes, a lot is seriously wrong, with many pictures..
But not all people are Christians who aren't afraid and 'ready' to die.
And what if you can prevent a slaughter by defeating the slaughterer?
Are you also against vaccinations, where you defeat the thing that kills people? (okay, that's not the same thing, but..)
There was this story of some crazy guy entering a school with guns, to kill people.
An employee, a Christian woman, carried a gun (concealed of course), and shot the guy before he could start his shooting spree, saving a lot of lives.

We hear of great acts of bravery and valor by unbelievers and of those I have no comment except that the lost do many things out of ignorance and pride. Life is full of “what if” scenarios and unbelievers are very proficient at trying to trap the faithful. The Devil tried to trap Jesus with his verbal gymnastics, so let me answer with scripture as He did. When Jesus’ disciples wanted to call down fire on some enemies of His He answered them by saying, “You do not know what spirit you are of, the Son of man has not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” See how these things work, the Devil never plays fair. If we refuse to exercise faith and trust until all of the "what if's" are answered satisfactorily then we will never trust at all. Obedience to the revealed word of God requires faith even when we don't have all the answers. We live in the flesh and the flesh is subject to disease in which vaccinations help and I am not convicted by my spirit or by God's word that I should forgo them. I also carry a spare tire in the trunk of my car which is not an act of unbelief. God has given us enough details in His word to convince a searching heart, but Satan is never satisfied.
 
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brinny

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I thank God for all the men and women who have served and continue to serve in the US armed forces. They make many sacrifices, and I believe God has often used their service and sacrifices . . .

For a Good Cause

A day may come when our Lord temporarily allows evil forces and governments to dominate the entire planet leaving no relatively safe haven for righteousness and truth until Christ returns. But that day has not yet come. Over the last 75 years, God has three times used the US military to play a key role in restraining evil forces. These three cases have the following in common:

1. Evil forces took over some parts of the world.
2. These evil forces were extremely cruel and brought immense suffering wherever they gained power.
3. The evil governments were responsible for the widespread persecution of Christians, and in at least two out of three cases, of Jews.
4. These evil forces were seriously intent on literally taking over the world and they made massive efforts, with some success, in that direction. They brought warfare, death, and destruction to many parts of the world.
5. God was pleased to use the US military and our allies to stop them in the first two cases, and to restrain them in a still ongoing war in the third.

The First Evil: Fascism

The first of these three evils was fascism in Japan and Nazi Germany.

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After fascist governments took over all of Europe except for courageous England, and also conquered parts of Africa, and much of the Pacific, the US military and our allies sacrificed many lives to defeat this evil.

Approaching_Omaha.jpg


Only as Europe was liberated did we really understand just how dark these evil forces were . . .

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The Second Evil: Communism

The next great threat was communism, which began to grow in power even as WWII was drawing to a close. Communist nations consistently used violence and persecution to oppose all belief in God.

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Beginning in Russian and China, communism grabbed Eastern Europe and was using warfare and violent revolutions to make gains in Asia and Central America. With the Cold War came the threat of nuclear warfare. But while much of the war was “cold”, in places like Korea and Vietnam, it turned into traditional, bloody warfare.

vietnam-war-larry-burrows-01.jpg


Once again, God graciously used the US military to defeat and restrain this threat (although it still exists on a smaller scale, the threat from Russia is again growing, and the danger of communism could return).

The Third Evil: Islamic Extremism

The US Military has been ever vigilant and has had little rest. For even as Communism was waning, a new global threat was growing. Lacking the military resources to fight a large scale conventional or nuclear war, Islamic extremists have turned to worldwide terrorism as their primary tactic. They are always seeking weak and unstable nations where they can move in and gain control.

Islam%2BThreat.jpg

Once again, the men and women of the US Military have been called on to restrain this evil. This battle is still in progress.

Going Broader

While my own service was relatively brief (five years) and my sacrifices small compared to many others, I hope you will bear with me if I share just a couple of personal thoughts related to my own time in the US Navy.

For every brave soldier, sailor, marine, and airman who made the ultimate sacrifice there are many others who made smaller, but still real and meaningful, sacrifices to restrain evil in this world and keep at least parts of it free. They did not lose their lives, but they did give up a portion of their lives.

During my 5 and ½ years in the Navy, I was blessed to serve with some really excellent men on three nuclear submarines:

Sub%2Bfixed.jpg


This was near the end of the Cold War. The men I served with often worked twelve or more hours a day for weeks at a time even while in port and also spent many months away from their families while out to sea. I estimate that out of my first four years of marriage to Hope, a cumulative of about two years I was away from home port, and my experience was typical. While many young men our age were focused on just enjoying life, the men I served with were keeping a secret vigilance to protect our nation, and to some extent our world, from the threats of evil nations and nuclear war. I do not believe our enemies did not hold back from using nuclear weapons because they were nice. By God's grace, they held back because they knew we were there and they feared that we would beat them if they challenged us. The US Navy consistently proved that it dominated the world’s oceans and kept them safe.

So, I thank God for the men who I served with. I would like to mention that I am especially thankful for the senior officers and enlisted men who were patient with young junior officers like I was.

Going Deeper

The external threat to our nation is still real and intense. And yet it is not the greatest threat we face. Moral decay threatens to do what Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Islamic terrorists have failed to do. If we continue on the path of increased sin and sexual immorality which we have been on the last forty years, a day may come when America ceases to be somewhat of a refuge for righteousness and a light for freedom. It is only by God’s grace that we have been used in this role up to now.

While government does have a limited role to play in maintaining morality, the only deep, lasting solution to moral decay is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So as you rightly remember the service and sacrifices of our military this weekend, please also pray for spiritual revival, renewal, and awakening. By revival, I mean a work of the Holy Spirit resulting in a lot of people loving Jesus a lot more. That includes a lot of people getting saved, and a lot of people getting set free from sin, and a lot of people serving more and giving more and growing more for the sake of the Kingdom of Christ.

Remember our men and women who have served our nation, and remember our Lord Jesus Christ, whose sacrifice makes all other sacrifices meaningful. I would like to close with . . .

A Prayer for Veterans Day

Lord, we thank you for the way you have blessed our nation. We acknowledge that all your blessings are due to Your own great grace and certainly not because we deserve them.

Heavenly Father, we thank You that You have chosen to use our military to restrain and defeat evil forces in the world. We pray that You will guide our political leaders so that our military will always be used for just and righteous causes and will not be misused.

Lord, we thank You for all who have served and who continue to serve. We ask that You bless them. For those who came back with wounds, physical and/or emotional, we pray that You will heal and encourage them. For those who came back and have struggled to find their place since returning, we pray that You will lead them and help them to know Your love and experience Your good plans for their lives.

We also pray for those who are currently serving. Please watch over them and bring them home safely. When they are fighting in a just cause (which I believe they are), please give them victory in every battle. Please fill many of them with Your Holy Spirit so that many who encounter them will also encounter Your kindness, love, and mercy. Please always use our military to bring blessing and not harm, good and not evil, light and not darkness.

Please be with military families, who make great sacrifices. Help every wife and child whose husband or father is away serving our nation. Provide for them and keep them safe.

Heavenly Father, please bring revival to our nation. Let us continue to be a nation that is worth defending. Forgive us for going in the wrong direction in so many ways. Please don't let us continue to slide down a slope towards decay and moral darkness. We confess that we deserve judgment, but by Your great grace we ask that You give us mercy. Please renew Your churches. Move to bring many to salvation in Christ. Set people free from sin and empower them to serve You.

In Jesus Name, Amen.

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God bless you Mark and thank you for your courage and sacrifice and may you be honored on today, this Veterans Day. Praying in agreement with you. God bless you, your family, and your household.
 
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SteveIndy

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As for the wars in the OT, i'm not sure either, because those are definitely not my favourite parts of Scripture (the books of Samuel for example i find very depressing and disheartening, confounding).
But it was about God's turf there, which is destined to be inhabited by his people, and God wants to be their King, and there were also the giant tribes that God commanded to be eradicated (Goliath and his brothers being the last ones mentioned).
So that's quite different from the ambitions of 'the powers that be'.

The O.T. is full of shadows and types that Christ brought out of lamplight into sunlight. The wars of the N.T. are also about God's turf and the victory is won by overcoming evil with good and no other way; Jesus was our example. There are also spiritual giants today and any weak David with just a little faith can defeat them. Come unto Me all that are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me for I am meek and lowly and humble of heart. Resting in Christ is the answer to all of these questions. It is at the same time the easiest thing we can do yet it is very difficult.
 
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Mark Corbett

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The O.T. is full of shadows and types that Christ brought out of lamplight into sunlight.

Do you believe it was morally right for David to kill the Philistines in battle?
 
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SteveIndy

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Do you believe it was morally right for David to kill the Philistines in battle?

Try as you may Mark you will not be able justify Christians killing another human being. David lived under a different set of rules, God had not yet revealed what all of the O.T. meant and as long as he operated in accordance with that set of rules he was morally right in what he did. Whether or not we understand God's purpose in all that He did in the O.T. does not negate the fact that Christ has re-written His last will and testament. The author of Hebrews states that as long as the testator is still alive he can change his will but after the testator dies then no one can change it, it is sealed. Christ was born under the Old (last will and) Testament and during His life He changed that document as discribes in Matthew 5-7 and other places. Then, Christ went to the cross and died sealing that document forever. Those who continually return to the old invalid document to justify there actions will not have a leg to stand on when they come before the High Court; their testimony will not be admitted and thrown out of court.
 
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SteveIndy

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By the way Mark, I am a two tour veteran of Vietnam 1968-1969 so I am not speaking as one who cannot relate firsthand to war and death, and I am not proud of what I did. I go to the Veteran's hospital and I see all of those vets wearing their badges and hats trying to convince themselves that what they did was right. I have two friends that I enlisted with who have never been able to cope with the fallout of that afair. One has never married and lives in a cabin in the woods where he stays up as long as possible drinking coffee so that he can avoid sleeping and nightmares. The other was turned into an animal who nearly killed his wife. The largest clinic of that hospital is the psyciatric ward and the posters on every wall encourage vets to call the suicide hotline before pulling the trigger. Do you really think they want to be told they are a hero when all they want to do is end the pain. We were not created to take life, we were created to save lives, and for the life of me I cannot understand why Christians can't grasp that idea that is written all through the N.T. in glaring language.
 
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Mark Corbett

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The New Testament rules such as "turn the other cheek" and "do not seek revenge" are given in a context of personal relationships, not in a context of military service, police action, or judicial action. In light of the many positive examples of military service in the Old Testament, if God wanted to forbid Christians from following that example, it would have been very simple to inspire a verse explicitly directing Christians to not serve in the military. No such verse exists. There were certainly opportunities to address this issue.

Jesus points out the faith of a centurion as a positive example (Matthew 8:10), and gives him no directions or encouragement to leave the military. When the Centurion in Acts came to Christ, there is no evidence that Peter asked him to leave the military (Acts 10). Even when some soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do he only told them not to abuse their power, he did not suggest they should stop being soldiers (Luke 3:14).
 
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SteveIndy

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The New Testament rules such as "turn the other cheek" and "do not seek revenge" are given in a context of personal relationships, not in a context of military service, police action, or judicial action. In light of the many positive examples of military service in the Old Testament, if God wanted to forbid Christians from following that example, it would have been very simple to inspire a verse explicitly directing Christians to not serve in the military. No such verse exists. There were certainly opportunities to address this issue.

Jesus points out the faith of a centurion as a positive example (Matthew 8:10), and gives him no directions or encouragement to leave the military. When the Centurion in Acts came to Christ, there is no evidence that Peter asked him to leave the military (Acts 10). Even when some soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do he only told them not to abuse their power, he did not suggest they should stop being soldiers (Luke 3:14).

The context in which Jesus spoke is exactly the context it should be taken. Jesus did not prefix His words with, “The following words are to be taken as relating to personal relationships only,” you have added this pretext to justify evil. “Love your enemy” means love your enemy and not love your enemy who you are personal with, that is called creative interpretation which, in all honesty, is just a lie. I have given you plenty of “inspired” Scripture to substantiate your error yet you maintain that God has not spoken on this subject. I think this might be the same “hardness of heart” that plagued the Jews.

As far as the Centurion passages are concerned they could be just as easily used to support my argument as yours. An argument from silence is no argument at all. Jesus and Peter give no direction one way or the other so the verses cannot be used to support your position. John, on the other hand, was speaking from an O.T. position, remember “The Law and the prophets were until John.”

Those disciples who were the closest to the Apostles after the Apostolic period, i.e. the disciples of the Apostles, who received firsthand the understanding of Christ’s teaching while it was still fresh understood as I do. Two thousand years of men using creative interpretation has resulted in evil becoming good and good becoming evil. Christ has left us with a Book and examples yet we refuse to believe but time is running out, you better check your theology.
 
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SteveIndy

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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

We are so utterly ordinary, so commonplace, while we profess to know a Power the Twentieth Century does not reckon with. But we are “harmless,” and therefore unharmed. We are spiritual pacifists, non-militants, conscientious objectors in this battle-to-the-death with principalities and powers in high places. Meekness must be had for contact with men, but brass, outspoken boldness is required to take part in the comradeship of the Cross. We are “sideliners” — coaching and criticizing the real wrestlers while content to sit by and leave the enemies of God unchallenged. The world cannot hate us, we are too much like its own. Oh that God would make us dangerous!” Jim Elliot (missionary/martyr)
 
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nChrist

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I agree with the OP completely. I give thanks to our Veterans - not just one day a year - but every day of the year. Someone always has to pay for peace and safety. The price is blood, sweat, and tears. There are many good Christian soldiers, and there is no conflict. I firmly believe that God raises up powers to deal with evil, especially the evils inflicted on innocents by people like Hitler.

I'm embarrassed to read some of the posts here. Some have decided to slap a Veteran than to thank them. I will thank them and those still serving. I will be praying for them every day. I don't take my peace, freedom, and safety for granted. I think that most people, certainly including Christians, thank and appreciate Veterans - those who serve us all. Thank you Veterans from the bottom of my heart.
 
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SteveIndy

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I agree with the OP completely. I give thanks to our Veterans - not just one day a year - but every day of the year. Someone always has to pay for peace and safety. The price is blood, sweat, and tears. There are many good Christian soldiers, and there is no conflict. I firmly believe that God raises up powers to deal with evil, especially the evils inflicted on innocents by people like Hitler.

I'm embarrassed to read some of the posts here. Some have decided to slap a Veteran than to thank them. I will thank them and those still serving. I will be praying for them every day. I don't take my peace, freedom, and safety for granted. I think that most people, certainly including Christians, thank and appreciate Veterans - those who serve us all. Thank you Veterans from the bottom of my heart.

By your name and comment, I would have guessed you were saved by your own hand but I am sure that you will now try and convince everyone you were saved by grace through faith ALONE. No one has slapped a vet, I myself am a vet, but Christ has come and died a sacrificial death to show men, even vets, a better way, a way that will lead to eternal life where there will be real peace and no 357 magnums; who is the embarrassment?
 
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John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Thank you for your service, your love, and your sacrifice. I have realized it is a sacrifice that keeps taking from you even after you came home. God bless you.
 
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Mark Corbett

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The real struggle against evil is not out in the world, it's in the human heart.

I both agree with you and disagree.

I agree because our deepest and primary struggle against evil is against the evil we find in our own "flesh", in human hearts. The only solution for this is the gospel of Jesus Christ, both in it's initial application when by God's grace we are born again, and then in the long fight for holiness as we grow in Christ through faith by His grace.

I disagree in the sense that what you say is, I feel, a false dichotomy. There is also evil "out in the world". We need to be delivered from evil BOTH in terms of being forgiven, set free, and transformed from our own sin, AND from being attacked and harmed from the sin of others.

Christians in Syria, for example, have suffered very REAL evil in the world. (All of us have, I just chose a particularly obvious example.)

God works through many means. One way He chooses to partially restrain and stop some of the evil in this world is through the right use of government force. In the OP I shared what I view as several HUGE examples of God working in this way.

Grace and Peace, Mark (with Hope and Joy!)
 
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Mark Corbett

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I have two friends that I enlisted with who have never been able to cope with the fallout of that afair. One has never married and lives in a cabin in the woods where he stays up as long as possible drinking coffee so that he can avoid sleeping and nightmares. The other was turned into an animal who nearly killed his wife.

Steve, I was reading back through some posts on this thread and the Lord put it on my heart to take a break from "debate" and offer a prayer for your friends. In doing so I am reminded that we can disagree on important issues, and yet share a deep faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and a true love for one another.

My prayer: Lord I pray that you will be in that cabin in the woods with Steve's friend. That you will pour out Your mercy and grace into his life there. That he will experience healing and restoration and grace and love. Please set him free from the nightmares and give him peaceful sleep. And I pray that Steve's other friend will be transformed from being like "an animal" in some ways and be remade into the image of Christ. I pray that He will find forgiveness and transformation in Jesus. Lord, also please minister love and healing to his wife, who also has suffered. In Jesus Name, Amen.
 
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