What is foreknowledge?

[Everybodyknows]

I think my example was perhaps not a good one. I should have imagined a suitable gate serving the required purpose, not in a specific location.

It sounds like you are saying that God will achieve his objective no matter what, but the actual details of how he will achieve his objective and the details of his final solution are unknown even by him. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Everybodyknows]

Thanks for your insightful comment.

Yes, knowing it in the mind. Not by reading the future but, rather, by seeing the plan of accomplishing it in the mind.

I feel we need to disambiguate what we mean by foreknowledge. It seems we might be meaning different things. I differentiate between predictions of the future and knowledge of the future. For example if the weather report predicts it's going to rain tomorrow, I don't see that as foreknowledge. Sometimes they get it wrong. In my definition foreknowledge means knowing the future with absolute certainty.

You may mean something different, and that's ok, but we need to be clear on how we are using our terms.

 

[fat wee robin]

Ok, I get what you mean in a general sense. Now if I may delve into some specifics using your fence analogy. So my understanding of the situation is this:

1. God has some particular plan/end in mind.
2. He gets to work to bring this end state into being (executing his purpose).
3. He comes against some obstacle and alters his course of action.
4. He still brings about the end state in a general sense but some specifics vary from his original plan.

So the first 2 points seem pretty straightforward. I have questions about points 3 & 4.
Re 3 -

• Does God have knowledge of the obstacle before he encounters it?
• Does God have knowledge of all possible obstacles he might encounter but not specific knowledge of which ones he will actually face? So instead of a singular plan of action god has multiple contingency plans in place to cover every possible scenario.
• Or does it take him by complete surprise? He has no (or limited) knowledge of the future.

Re 4 -

Does God bring about his desired end state exactly as he intended or only in a general sense allowing for some variance in the specifics. For example you achieved your general purpose of putting a fence with a gate around your yard but the specific location of the gate has changed from your original vision.​

What does this even mean. If we are talking about knowledge one either knows something or they do not. What is the difference between active and passive knowledge. Perhaps I'm thinking too much in binary terms and you have some other approach?

I like your final statement:

Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).​

I would say this is one way in which God approaches the future. He makes certain things happen. However, I think He knows the future in other ways also because He knows all in the present. Because He knows all in the present (but doesn't know all in the future) He can make predictions that will come to pass because they do not rely on human choices. Other things He may know will happen if humans choose it that way, and He sees that they will most likely choose that way.

One last thing, even though His foreknowledge is limited by our free will, He can still exercise His omnipotence to ensure certain plans come to pass.

Excellent thread BTW.

For me God creates everything He makes within given Time periods .Just in the way a plant has a dna structural plan which goes from seed to flower to seed again ,human development goes in cycles and we are limited to whatever pattern God has designed for us ,until the cycle ends .
The difference between us and plants, is that we are concious ,can make some changes within limitations ,but the programme God has designed for us cannot be changed .So we develop within the restrictions of the plan or programme and have free will within that . Can God predict exactly what happens to us ,more or less ,but does He want to . I don't think so until it is time to begin again a new programme .
Now if we have a very personal relationship with HIM He does know and intervenes ,and helps us, as this programme is relentless without the Spirit to guide us and Jesus to comfort us ,it .

 

[Tayla]

God is not confined to time and space as the human mind perceives

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, God is above all this, yet he pervades it all.

 

[Tayla]

I would like to ask you this however, does God, in 'your' view, know exactly what will happen in the future, and exactly how it will happen, or is the future, even for God, something that cannot be known precisely?

The future is still future, even to God. The future unfolds, even for God.

 

[Tayla]

does this work for you as a general definition of open theism?

Open Theism: God desires that we freely choose to love Him, so He has made His knowledge of/plans for the future conditional upon us and what we want/what we choose to do. In short, God doesn't know what we will choose to do (at least not with certainty anyway).

I am no expert of Open Theism. I think the conditional part seems wrong somehow. God is not scheming, hoping we will fall in line with his plans.

Also, God doesn't know what location an electron will be in when its wavefunction collapses; it is random. Note that this has nothing to do with human free will.

 

[Tayla]

It sounds like you are saying that God will achieve his objective no matter what, but the actual details of how he will achieve his objective and the details of his final solution are unknown even by him. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, mostly. But I think it's wrong to say it's unknown to God. Just as if I write a symphony; it's a creative act. But to say that the specific notes I will use in measure 147 are unknown to me doesn't seem like a good way to think about it.

 

[Tayla]

I differentiate between predictions of the future and knowledge of the future. For example if the weather report predicts it's going to rain tomorrow, I don't see that as foreknowledge. Sometimes they get it wrong. In my definition foreknowledge means knowing the future with absolute certainty.

You may mean something different, and that's ok, but we need to be clear on how we are using our terms.

Yes, of course terms need defining before using. I'm speaking in the context of the several New Testament passages typically used for God's foreknowledge. I think these are often used to mean something about God that the writers didn't intend to say.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Yes, of course terms need defining before using. I'm speaking in the context of the several New Testament passages typically used for God's foreknowledge. I think these are often used to mean something about God that the writers didn't intend to say.

I'm wanting more of a practical definition rather than interpretations of a biblical concept.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Yes, mostly. But I think it's wrong to say it's unknown to God. Just as if I write a symphony; it's a creative act. But to say that the specific notes I will use in measure 147 are unknown to me doesn't seem like a good way to think about it.

What then does God know of the future and how does he know it? Conversely what kind of things does God not know about the future?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

My next premonition happened at Princeton Seminary again around Christmas. I frequently dined with Ted in the seminary cafeteria. He had a great sense of humor. He had just gained acceptance into the doctoral program in New Testament at Cambridge in England. I too was applying to doctoral programs in Scripture, so I went up to his dorm room to ask if I could borrow his Cambridge catalogue to learn more about their program and the application process.

As Ted handed me the catalogue, I again saw his skeleton and just knew he would shortly be killed! Since warning Dallas had achieved nothing, I said nothing to Ted. Indeed, I had no idea how he would die. At least in Dallas's case I assumed some kind of gun-related hunting accident. Frankly, I wasn't emotionally ready to handle this unexpected premonition.

Ted was killed the next day as a passenger in another friend of mine's car. They were driving together from New Jersey to Ohio to spend Christmas with their families. But as the car drove around the freeway onramp, it hit an ice slick and swerved into a telephone pole. The driver only broke his arm. I recall his cast so vividly when I returned to Princeton after the Christmas break. But Ted was killed.

A more thorough discussion of these and my other premonitions can be found under "Spiritual Gifts" in the "Sign" section. I am convinced that somehow the heavenly realm is outside of time and I, for some reason, was allowed to enter that timeless realm to gain foreknowledge of these tragedies. The depressing thought is that I don't understand why because this foreknowledge did no one any good. Some of my other premonitions did serve an edifying purpose, though.

Very sad experiences you have had with this stuff . Terrible. So sorry you had to go through all that. My mother and I have also had some experiences similar to yours. We have learned that sometimes God simply tells us things for us to pray for, either as a group, or just us individually -- depending on the nature of the premonition (is it too personal to reveal to others etc?) and is it urgent i.e. is it life and death? When you have these premonitions again, perhaps try using the knowledge to pray for the person and save them. It seems in the examples provided God has seen that the devil is out to kill a person. (Sometimes, we are called to be modern day Jonahs).

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Are you suggesting a Flatland model in which God looks down from his third dimension and sees everything in our two dimensions? This is, I think, the usual model of God with the two dimensions of Flatland including time.

I was not intending to relate this to "flatland" thinking. I see God as in time with respect to this universe, somewhat similar to what you have presented, if I have understood your OP. I see Him as actively in our time, not passively watching from afar. I'm not sure how I think about flatland because I haven't thought through it's implications.

There are unknowns besides human free will, for example, the randomness of quantum mechanics. Of when a radioactive particle will decay and which direction its resultant particles and energy will travel, for example. Or where an electron will appear as a particle when the quantum mechanics wave function for it collapses; this, influencing chemical reactions, perhaps triggering the butterfly effect.

These unknowns you describe, I would have thought are known by God. But I'm open to be convinced otherwise. My belief at present is only our future-choices are unknown by God.

So in these case, God does not have foreknowledge?

With respect to certain free-agent choices I would say God does not have foreknowledge. The most important example of this is the first evil; I believe God did not have foreknowledge that evil would manifest.

 

[Everybodyknows]

There are unknowns besides human free will, for example, the randomness of quantum mechanics. Of when a radioactive particle will decay and which direction its resultant particles and energy will travel, for example. Or where an electron will appear as a particle when the quantum mechanics wave function for it collapses; this, influencing chemical reactions, perhaps triggering the butterfly effect.

This is an excellent point. It also opens a can of worms. From what I understand, and I'm by no means an expert on QM, is that science still doesn't know if quantum mechanics is truly random or if there is some underlying determinism. By determinism I mean that a system can be described precisely in terms of cause and effect, that is, knowing all the information about an initial state would enable us to determine the outcome as a resultant progression of cause and effects.

We run into two problems in quantum mechanics. Firstly, the fact that our act of observation (measurement) has an effect on the outcome. Secondly we have the uncertainty principle, meaning we can't know all information about a particle.

The uncertainty principle says that we cannot measure the position (x) and the momentum (p) of a particle with absolute precision. The more accurately we know one of these values, the less accurately we know the other.

In order to make accurate predictions of outcome we need to know both momentum and position accurately. So we don't/can't know if the universe is deterministic at this stage.

It's going to get even more tricky when we start talking about God. We have to ask 'how does God know things?'. Obviously God doesn't need to measure things with lab instruments to know them. Perhaps God can know the precise position and momentum of every particle in the universe then, meaning he would have knowledge of the future. Or perhaps quantum randomness is outside the knowledge of God and he experiences an unfolding future the same way we do. I don't know if we can determine the answers to these questions.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think................Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

I fully agree with RC1970 on this.

If we are talking about human foreknowledge this may be a good example. But we are talking about God and not one of His creations.

God is, according to the scriptures, "immutable". That means that He does not change - never has and never will. What you see is what you get. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God is perfect, always has been and always will be. Nothing can be added to Him or it means that He was not, before that addition, perfect. That means that knowledge cannot be added to His eternal state. He does not "learn" things. He always has and always will know everything past, present and future already.

Likewise God cannot forget anything. If He lacks something He once possessed (knowledge) He is no longer perfect.

The old theological question from my first year in Bible school is as applicable here as it has been in basic Bible studies since the compilation of the scriptures was complete and systematic theologies were compiled.

"HAS IT EVER OCCURRED TO YOU THAT NOTHING HAS EVER OCCURRED TO GOD?"

It seems to me that some people need to take at least a rudimentary course in theology 101.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I fully agree with RC1970 on this.

If we are talking about human foreknowledge this may be a good example. But we are talking about God and not one of His creations.

God is, according to the scriptures, "immutable". That means that He does not change - never has and never will. What you see is what you get. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God is perfect, always has been and always will be. Nothing can be added to Him or it means that He was not, before that addition, perfect. That means that knowledge cannot be added to His eternal state. He does not "learn" things. He always has and always will know everything past, present and future already.

Likewise God cannot forget anything. If He lacks something He once possessed (knowledge) He is no longer perfect.

The old theological question from my first year in Bible school is as applicable here as it has been in basic Bible studies since the compilation of the scriptures was complete and systematic theologies were compiled.

"HAS IT EVER OCCURRED TO YOU THAT NOTHING HAS EVER OCCURRED TO GOD?"

It seems to me that some people need to take at least a rudimentary course in theology 101.

Has it ever occurred to you that theology 101 is rooted in greek philosophy? Did you know Augustine was taught in Greek philosophy before converting to Christianity whereby he brought his preconceptions with him? That Platonic forms of God infiltrated the conception of God in Christianity and haven't been removed? Did you know the idea of immutability originates not in the bible but in Plato's writings? Also timelessness? Did you know Calvin builds on Augustine? Did you know there are alternative and more biblical systematic theologies besides the dominant but flawed Calvinism? Please bring reason, not "seminary says".

 

[Tayla]

We have to ask 'how does God know things?'. Obviously God doesn't need to measure things with lab instruments to know them. Perhaps God can know the precise position and momentum of every particle in the universe then, meaning he would have knowledge of the future. Or perhaps quantum randomness is outside the knowledge of God and he experiences an unfolding future the same way we do.

Yes, considering science rather than pure theology has caused me to view things from a different perspective. It's why I postulate a spiritual realm as I do, and also this alternate view of foreknowledge I've mentioned in this thread.

 

[Tayla]

In order to make accurate predictions of outcome we need to know both momentum and position accurately. So we don't/can't know if the universe is deterministic at this stage.

Good point. I wonder why materialist scientists make so much of determinism and that we don't have free will? Maybe they think the universe can somehow be deterministic even if we can't measure it to be so? If that's what they think, it seems they have violated the scientific spirit since it's all based on observation and measurement.

 

[Tayla]

From what I understand, and I'm by no means an expert on QM, is that science still doesn't know if quantum mechanics is truly random or if there is some underlying determinism. By determinism I mean that a system can be described precisely in terms of cause and effect, that is, knowing all the information about an initial state would enable us to determine the outcome as a resultant progression of cause and effects.

I've never encountered this idea before which I find surprising since materialist scientists promote determinism so hard.

Thanks for mentioning they don't know if it's random. I only heard it is; I'll look into the topic further.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Good point. I wonder why materialist scientists make so much of determinism and that we don't have free will? Maybe they think the universe can somehow be deterministic even if we can't measure it to be so? If that's what they think, it seems they have violated the scientific spirit since it's all based on observation and measurement.

I've only come across a few scientific articles challenging free will. They seem to mostly come from the neuroscience field, rather than physics. But I really know nothing of the topic, so I'm not qualified to comment further.

I've never encountered this idea before which I find surprising since materialist scientists promote determinism so hard.

Thanks for mentioning they don't know if it's random. I only heard it is; I'll look into the topic further.

I don't really know much about science promoting determinism. Perhaps back in the day of classical physics (pre QM) this may have been the case. Now I believe most physicists hold non-deterministic views of QM. There are some deterministic interpretations floating around but I don't think they have a great amount of support. QM certainly appears to be non-deterministic at face value.

 

[Tayla]

some people need to take at least a rudimentary course in theology 101.

I have rejected Theology 101 because it's based on the philosophy of Aristotle and seems to think philosophy can define God. Also, it ignores the knowledge obtained via modern science, psychology, archaeology, biology, and etc. Also, it ignores a proper understanding of who wrote the Hebrew Bible and when. Also, it yields such silly teachings and doctrines as young earth, global flood, premillennialism with rapture, God's judgment as a courtroom legal proceeding, total depravity, saved by faith only, sola scriptura, Calvinism, that the final goal of the redeemed is heaven (it's the new heavens and new earth). The study of the development of doctrine seems to consist in judging the writings of the church fathers based on modern views.