What is foreknowledge?

[Tayla]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

 

[RC1970]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

This may be a reasonable explanation for human "foreknowledge", but not for God.

 

[christianforumsuser]

In every moment don't people think what to expect...as they've encountered similar before
If I see an angry face I might expect a few possibilities as I examine and interact with him
More specifically if the man is black...but from ghetto area I might admittedly stereotype
Also if I'm white and higher class I might think how to prepare how I'd act if I got in confrontation
Or if I've been influenced to learn a culture...or the people in a place recognize me it doesn't take so much thinking

As for objects they don't think back or get hostile...(until robots do? haha)
You can't see what's in them, only who designed and made them can maybe
So as long as something is so familiar you instinctively react exactly as you usually do
If someone threw a ball quick you might prioritize dropping what's in your hand if you're not sleepy

Some people have their specialties...in a workplace or hobby
We have memory but sometimes it gets altered because people say what they'd like to be true and hide behind a lie rather than speak real things
If yuo think of the mind like a computer search engine it might forge something to meet a criteria or however memory works to find/simulate what is considered true
Like computer code or a blueprint you could start walking and then see the fence and ask someone to do it for you or learn by words or learn by teaching your hands
Maybe could have moved the boulder.
People have learned instincts. There can be detail and precision
Where there's a will there's a way. God has a will.

 

[St_Worm2]

From Ligonier's devotional periodical, Table Talk, a very short article on the subject:

Foreknowledge

“For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers” (v. 29). - Romans 8:29-30
​

Everybody believes in predestination. Secular humanists believe in predestination; they just believe man is the one who is to do the predestinating (and what a wonderful world that would be). Other pagans believe that the world predestinates itself, and that the future will lead only to the death of the universe.

All Christians believe in predestination by God. They believe in it because the Bible clearly teaches it. But not all Christians mean the same thing by it.

The most common error among Christians about predestination arises from a misreading of Romans 8:29. There we are told that God’s predestination is grounded in His foreknowledge. This has been misunderstood to mean that God looked down the corridors of history, foresaw what you and I would do, and stuck that into His plan.

This view does not reckon with the fact that God created time, and therefore all events in time, when He created the world, so that He does not look down through history but looks at history as a complete whole. Apart from such a weighty philosophical objection, however, we can notice that Romans 8:29 does not say that God foreknew certain decisions on our part. It does not say that God foresees our faith, and on that basis predestinates us. It says nothing of the sort.

Rather, Romans 8:29 says that God foreknew certain people. A study of the idea of knowledge in the Bible will show that it usually involves a choice of intimate relations, as when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived. Romans 8:29 means that God “fore-loved” certain people, and predestinated them. He chose them; they did not choose Him.

Romans 9 makes this abundantly clear, because Paul goes into a discussion of God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau, a choice based on nothing either had done (Romans 9:11). The objection, “Is God unjust?” could not arise unless Paul were teaching real predestination; after all, nobody accuses the “foreseen faith” view of being unjust (9:14). And Paul’s answer in verse 15, which stresses that God decides whom He will save and whom He will not, clinches the matter clearly.

Coram Deo
The “foreknowledge” view sees all of history as some great movie that God watched but did not create. He is therefore not sovereign. The flow of history depends upon the will of man, not the plan of God. This week thank God for “foreloving” you.

Passages for Further Study

1 Corinthians 1:26–31
2 Thessalonians 2:13–14
2 Timothy 1:9–10​

Yours and His,
David

 

[Tayla]

This may be a reasonable explanation for human "foreknowledge", but not for God.

Thank you for sharing your insight.

 

[Everybodyknows]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

Imagination or expectation is not the same as knowledge. Your dog could get run over or you could drop dead and your fence project would be abandoned

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

Interesting thought. In what practical way does this relate to God's foreknowledge? The way you present it sounds a bit like Molinism.

 

[Tayla]

Imagination or expectation is not the same as knowledge. Your dog could get run over or you could drop dead and your fence project would be abandoned

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

God will not let this happen for his projects; he is relentless. So I'm not sure this is a good objection.

 

[christianforumsuser]

If you drop a marble down some maze-like structure...someone might observe that it tends to fall into the same place
Or by some pattern they think they observed

People have their daily routines and ways so set in place they know how to respond to most types of problems
They drive and know how to handle usual things like someone crossing the road even not on crosswalk
Because they have their priorities and attention to watch
Someone could imagine scenarios, people tend to know what could happen various ways

Yet science researchers still haven't got most patterns learned it seems
Artificial intelligence scans data
What happens when you freeze or boil water? But then cooking pasta...
When you come across something different your predictions might not work so well
On face value it looks the same
Traditions keep going...line upon line

 

[Tayla]

Interesting thought. In what practical way does this relate to God's foreknowledge? The way you present it sounds a bit like Molinism.

Thank you for your kind reply.

It's not Molinism. I have in mind that even God interacts with his creation. He doesn't just sit there seeing and knowing everything; things unfold for him too. What fun would life be (even for God) if things did not unfold? If everything were static and unchanging?

 

[christianforumsuser]

Logos. He does not change
Man and the world change
Water is said to freeze at 0 Celsius for example, as the definition is today

 

[Everybodyknows]

Thank you for your kind reply.

It's not Molinism. I have in mind that even God interacts with his creation. He doesn't just sit there seeing and knowing everything; things unfold for him too. What fun would life be (even for God) if things did not unfold? If everything were static and unchanging?

Sounds more like Open Theism then where God doesn't have foreknowledge of free will choices.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

God will not let this happen for his projects; he is relentless. So I'm not sure this is a good objection.

The problem in your thought experiment, if it is an analogy for the way God works, is why God does not have foreknowledge of the boulder in the first place. Are you suggesting that God has limited knowledge? What then is the limitation? Or does God experience time in the same way we do and merely makes predictions about the future. To me knowledge means knowing something with specific precision. So knowledge of the future must be definite to be knowledge, otherwise it's just a prediction or a guess.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Thank you for your kind reply.

It's not Molinism. I have in mind that even God interacts with his creation. He doesn't just sit there seeing and knowing everything; things unfold for him too. What fun would life be (even for God) if things did not unfold? If everything were static and unchanging?

Then more like Open Theism or Neo-Molinism.

One of the things I asked myself nearly twenty years ago now is if God fore knew something could that thing NOT come to pass and more importantly could God prevent that which he foreknew?

Such questions lead to a God who has a more dynamic relationship with time.

Some reasearch into the subject of time might help, since the way you perceive time works inevitably leads to a diiferent understanding of the way God relates to it.

 

[Tayla]

The problem in your thought experiment, if it is an analogy for the way God works, is why God does not have foreknowledge of the boulder in the first place. Are you suggesting that God has limited knowledge? What then is the limitation? Or does God experience time in the same way we do and merely makes predictions about the future. To me knowledge means knowing something with specific precision. So knowledge of the future must be definite to be knowledge, otherwise it's just a prediction or a guess.

Thank you for your reply.

These objections seem to confine God in a way I am not confining him. I'm considering God's nature as living and active, not philosophically constrained.

 

[Tayla]

Then more like Open Theism or Neo-Molinism.

One of the things I asked myself nearly twenty years ago now is if God fore knew something could that thing NOT come to pass and more importantly could God prevent that which he foreknew?

Such questions lead to a God who has a more dynamic relationship with time.

Some reasearch into the subject of time might help, since the way you perceive time works inevitably leads to a diiferent understanding of the way God relates to it.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

The question you pose reminds me of the question, "Can God create something so heavy he can't move it?" Seems like a limiting of God's nature to something the human mind can comprehend. But this question makes no sense for God, kind of like the sound of one hand clapping.

God transcends time and so it is irrelevant whether we try to understand how God interacts with time.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Thank you for your reply.

These objections seem to confine God in a way I am not confining him. I'm considering God's nature as living and active, not philosophically constrained.

What do you mean by foreknowledge. Sure God is living and active, but what does that mean in this context. I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say as you only seem to offer objections without explanation to my questions.

 

[Tayla]

What do you mean by foreknowledge. Sure God is living and active, but what does that mean in this context. I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say as you only seem to offer objections without explanation to my questions.

Thanks for your question.

God knows what he will accomplish; he knows it ahead of time. Not because he reads the future passively but, rather, because he executes his purpose. Just as the future end state is in my mind when I plan to build the fence, so with God.

Foreknowledge is active, not passive.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Thanks for your question.

God knows what he will accomplish; he knows it ahead of time. Not because he reads the future passively but, rather, because he executes his purpose. Just as the future end state is in my mind when I plan to build the fence, so with God.

Ok, I get what you mean in a general sense. Now if I may delve into some specifics using your fence analogy. So my understanding of the situation is this:

1. God has some particular plan/end in mind.
2. He gets to work to bring this end state into being (executing his purpose).
3. He comes against some obstacle and alters his course of action.
4. He still brings about the end state in a general sense but some specifics vary from his original plan.

So the first 2 points seem pretty straightforward. I have questions about points 3 & 4.
Re 3 -

• Does God have knowledge of the obstacle before he encounters it?
• Does God have knowledge of all possible obstacles he might encounter but not specific knowledge of which ones he will actually face? So instead of a singular plan of action god has multiple contingency plans in place to cover every possible scenario.
• Or does it take him by complete surprise? He has no (or limited) knowledge of the future.

Re 4 -

Does God bring about his desired end state exactly as he intended or only in a general sense allowing for some variance in the specifics. For example you achieved your general purpose of putting a fence with a gate around your yard but the specific location of the gate has changed from your original vision.​

Foreknowledge is active, not passive.

What does this even mean. If we are talking about knowledge one either knows something or they do not. What is the difference between active and passive knowledge. Perhaps I'm thinking too much in binary terms and you have some other approach?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

I like your final statement:

Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).​

I would say this is one way in which God approaches the future. He makes certain things happen. However, I think He knows the future in other ways also because He knows all in the present. Because He knows all in the present (but doesn't know all in the future) He can make predictions that will come to pass because they do not rely on human choices. Other things He may know will happen if humans choose it that way, and He sees that they will most likely choose that way.

One last thing, even though His foreknowledge is limited by our free will, He can still exercise His omnipotence to ensure certain plans come to pass.

Excellent thread BTW.