What is foreknowledge?

[christianforumsuser]

If you put a number of animals in a zone together a man could guess what would happen and the details of possible finer points
But if one is a predator and the other is prey, there's odds the prey and its offspring would get eaten by the predator
Of course there could be exceptions due to weather or escape or early extinction

How is free will when there's instinct and physics?
Or with herd/mass mind influence and instinct vs planning

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

The prefix 'fore' means 'before'...foreknowledge is knowing something before it happens/takes place.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Re 3 -

• Does God have knowledge of the obstacle before he encounters it?
• Does God have knowledge of all possible obstacles he might encounter but not specific knowledge of which ones he will actually face? So instead of a singular plan of action god has multiple contingency plans in place to cover every possible scenario.
• Or does it take him by complete surprise? He has no (or limited) knowledge of the future.

Like I said before, you might be better learning about how time works (or at least how we perceive it works).

If time is static, then your idea of God's foreknowledge is wrong. Knowledge of what would happen once the digging started means that God foreknew the presence of the stone and yet, since time is static God HAD to dig there because he foreknew he would. In static time the present is one of a series of 'presents', each a snapshot of a moment and God knows the all.

In my opinion, while this allows for perfect foreknowlede, it disallows omnipotence, since God cannot dig elsewhere without proving his own foreknowledge imperfect.

If time is dynamic, however, the future is not set: it consists of nothing, so there is nothing to know (and God knows that ). In this version God knows the stone is there because it was there in the past and there is no good reason to suppose that it spontaneously disappeared between a moment ago and now. This allows God to not dig in the wrong place and thus build the fence or even remove the stone. In dynamic time the present is the process by which the past is built.

If time is contingent, then all possible futures are set, but which possible future will occur is limited by what has gone before. So all possible futures where you started digging in a different place are eliminated from the options, but not ones where you dig to the stone and then give the whole thing up as a bad job and choose to get rid of the dog instead. Contingent time is a mix of static (all possible moments are known) and dynamic (which actual future occurs is dependent on free-will individuals).

 

[Deadworm]

So how would you explain the premonition in my dinner with Dallas? I was the Best Man in his wedding and, after the honeymoon, he invited me over for dinner. After dinner, he, his wife, and I went downstairs to play table tennis. After a few games, he casually mentioned that he was going deer hunting in northern Manitoba the next day. I suddenly seemed to see his skeleton and strangely just knew he'd be killed if he went on this trip. I shared my premonition with him and urged him to reconsider.

An annoyed Dallas accused me of "being one of those anti-hunting people." I replied that, though I have never gone hunting, I don't disapprove of the sport. He didn't think I was being honest about my true motive.

2 days later, I went to our church's Watchnight service on New Year's Eve. When I arrived, some teen-age girls approached me and asked, "Did you hear what happened to Dallas?" Dreading the answer, I replied, "No.wh;at?" They explained that after the hunt he drove back to civilization on his snowmobile. But he hit a bump and his improperly locked rifle discharged into his shoulder and he bled to death. His companions tried in vain to stop the bleeding with wrappings.

When the girls saw the look of despair and horror on my face, they giggled and said to each other, "Wow, I'll bet we ruined his day!" Giggle, giggle. It felt like Hell was laughing at my loving concern for my friend. Dallas was the leader of our large church youth group, which these girls also attended. Since then I have had many more such death premonitions and they always came true.

I must assume that somehow my mind supernaturally saw into the future. But how and why?

 

[Everybodyknows]

Like I said before, you might be better learning about how time works (or at least how we perceive it works).

Thank you for your informative post.

then your idea of God's foreknowledge is wrong.

Which particular idea? I present 3 quite different ideas.

If time is static, then your idea of God's foreknowledge is wrong.Knowledge of what would happen once the digging started means that God foreknew the presence of the stone and yet, since time is static God HAD to dig there because he foreknew he would. In static time the present is one of a series of 'presents', each a snapshot of a moment and God knows the all.

In my opinion, while this allows for perfect foreknowlede, it disallows omnipotence, since God cannot dig elsewhere without proving his own foreknowledge imperfect.

If time is dynamic, however, the future is not set: it consists of nothing, so there is nothing to know (and God knows that ). In this version God knows the stone is there because it was there in the past and there is no good reason to suppose that it spontaneously disappeared between a moment ago and now. This allows God to not dig in the wrong place and thus build the fence or even remove the stone. In dynamic time the present is the process by which the past is built.

If time is contingent, then all possible futures are set, but which possible future will occur is limited by what has gone before. So all possible futures where you started digging in a different place are eliminated from the options, but not ones where you dig to the stone and then give the whole thing up as a bad job and choose to get rid of the dog instead. Contingent time is a mix of static (all possible moments are known) and dynamic (which actual future occurs is dependent on free-will individuals).

The three points I present roughly correspond to your three interpretations of time.

• Does God have knowledge of the obstacle before he encounters it?

Corresponds to static time

• Does God have knowledge of all possible obstacles he might encounter but not specific knowledge of which ones he will actually face? So instead of a singular plan of action god has multiple contingency plans in place to cover every possible scenario.

Corresponds to contingent time

• Or does it take him by complete surprise? He has no (or limited) knowledge of the future.

Corresponds to dynamic time

I'm not, at this stage, even presenting an argument, rather I'm trying to gauge the OPs position and make sure we agree on definitions and terminology in order to have a productive conversation.

 

[Everybodyknows]

When the girls saw the look of despair and horror on my face, they giggled and said to each other, "Wow, I'll bet we ruined his day!" Giggle, giggle. It felt like Hell was laughing at my loving concern for my friend.

Oh, I was waiting for the part where the bear comes out and mauls them.

 

[Deadworm]

My next premonition happened at Princeton Seminary again around Christmas. I frequently dined with Ted in the seminary cafeteria. He had a great sense of humor. He had just gained acceptance into the doctoral program in New Testament at Cambridge in England. I too was applying to doctoral programs in Scripture, so I went up to his dorm room to ask if I could borrow his Cambridge catalogue to learn more about their program and the application process.

As Ted handed me the catalogue, I again saw his skeleton and just knew he would shortly be killed! Since warning Dallas had achieved nothing, I said nothing to Ted. Indeed, I had no idea how he would die. At least in Dallas's case I assumed some kind of gun-related hunting accident. Frankly, I wasn't emotionally ready to handle this unexpected premonition.

Ted was killed the next day as a passenger in another friend of mine's car. They were driving together from New Jersey to Ohio to spend Christmas with their families. But as the car drove around the freeway onramp, it hit an ice slick and swerved into a telephone pole. The driver only broke his arm. I recall his cast so vividly when I returned to Princeton after the Christmas break. But Ted was killed.

A more thorough discussion of these and my other premonitions can be found under "Spiritual Gifts" in the "Sign" section. I am convinced that somehow the heavenly realm is outside of time and I, for some reason, was allowed to enter that timeless realm to gain foreknowledge of these tragedies. The depressing thought is that I don't understand why because this foreknowledge did no one any good. Some of my other premonitions did serve an edifying purpose, though.

 

[DennisTate]

I had a thought about the nature of foreknowledge and wanted to see what all y'all theologians and philosophers think.

I needed to fence the back yard for the dogs, so I saw the fence in my mind with the gate over here. But when digging a post hole, there was a large boulder in the way. So I saw in my mind the solution: put the gate over there instead. Now there is a fence exactly as I foresaw it. Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).

I am of the belief that whatever the full truth on this topic really is.....
it could turn out to be one of the most important questions that the Bride of Messiah, the church,
ever confronts.

The following question by the disciples..... .at first may appear to us as a dumb / stupid question..... but it isn't!



John 9:2

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"


One of the reason why the wrath of God can be understood perfectly in these latter days is that the human spirt / soul may have some of the capabilities of the computer plus hard drive..... plus internet..... of the computers that we are working on.


Jer 23:20

The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

 

[DennisTate]

From Ligonier's devotional periodical, Table Talk, a very short article on the subject:

Foreknowledge

“For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers” (v. 29). - Romans 8:29-30
​

Everybody believes in predestination. Secular humanists believe in predestination; they just believe man is the one who is to do the predestinating (and what a wonderful world that would be). Other pagans believe that the world predestinates itself, and that the future will lead only to the death of the universe.

All Christians believe in predestination by God. They believe in it because the Bible clearly teaches it. But not all Christians mean the same thing by it.

The most common error among Christians about predestination arises from a misreading of Romans 8:29. There we are told that God’s predestination is grounded in His foreknowledge. This has been misunderstood to mean that God looked down the corridors of history, foresaw what you and I would do, and stuck that into His plan.

This view does not reckon with the fact that God created time, and therefore all events in time, when He created the world, so that He does not look down through history but looks at history as a complete whole. Apart from such a weighty philosophical objection, however, we can notice that Romans 8:29 does not say that God foreknew certain decisions on our part. It does not say that God foresees our faith, and on that basis predestinates us. It says nothing of the sort.

Rather, Romans 8:29 says that God foreknew certain people. A study of the idea of knowledge in the Bible will show that it usually involves a choice of intimate relations, as when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived. Romans 8:29 means that God “fore-loved” certain people, and predestinated them. He chose them; they did not choose Him.

Romans 9 makes this abundantly clear, because Paul goes into a discussion of God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau, a choice based on nothing either had done (Romans 9:11). The objection, “Is God unjust?” could not arise unless Paul were teaching real predestination; after all, nobody accuses the “foreseen faith” view of being unjust (9:14). And Paul’s answer in verse 15, which stresses that God decides whom He will save and whom He will not, clinches the matter clearly.

Coram Deo
The “foreknowledge” view sees all of history as some great movie that God watched but did not create. He is therefore not sovereign. The flow of history depends upon the will of man, not the plan of God. This week thank God for “foreloving” you.

Passages for Further Study

1 Corinthians 1:26–31
2 Thessalonians 2:13–14
2 Timothy 1:9–10​

Yours and His,
David

On the other hand......

Gen 22:12

¶
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only sonfrom me.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Dennis, does the Messianic Jewish faith hold to open theism now?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done. ~Isaiah 46:9-10
.​

 

[Tayla]

However, I think He knows the future in other ways also because He knows all in the present.

Are you suggesting a Flatland model in which God looks down from his third dimension and sees everything in our two dimensions? This is, I think, the usual model of God with the two dimensions of Flatland including time.

 

[Tayla]

Because He knows all in the present (but doesn't know all in the future) He can make predictions that will come to pass because they do not rely on human choices.

There are unknowns besides human free will, for example, the randomness of quantum mechanics. Of when a radioactive particle will decay and which direction its resultant particles and energy will travel, for example. Or where an electron will appear as a particle when the quantum mechanics wave function for it collapses; this, influencing chemical reactions, perhaps triggering the butterfly effect.

 

[Tayla]

Other things He may know will happen if humans choose it that way, and He sees that they will most likely choose that way.

So in these case, God does not have foreknowledge?

 

[Tayla]

The prefix 'fore' means 'before'...foreknowledge is knowing something before it happens/takes place.

Thanks for your insightful comment.

Yes, knowing it in the mind. Not by reading the future but, rather, by seeing the plan of accomplishing it in the mind.

 

[Tayla]

Does God have knowledge of the obstacle before he encounters it?

Does God have knowledge of all possible obstacles he might encounter but not specific knowledge of which ones he will actually face? So instead of a singular plan of action god has multiple contingency plans in place to cover every possible scenario.

Or does it take him by complete surprise? He has no (or limited) knowledge of the future.

God's plans include knowledge of the kinds of things that will occur, either through free will of humans or spirit creatures, or via randomness of quantum mechanics. His plan becomes more detailed as time progresses.

For example, in creating the universe the way he did, he knew chemical biological creatures would appear, and he had in mind (by foreknowledge) to create souls for them. But he didn't know each individual until he scanned their DNA, then created their specific soul having matching attributes.

 

[Tayla]

Does God bring about his desired end state exactly as he intended or only in a general sense allowing for some variance in the specifics. For example you achieved your general purpose of putting a fence with a gate around your yard but the specific location of the gate has changed from your original vision.

I think my example was perhaps not a good one. I should have imagined a suitable gate serving the required purpose, not in a specific location.

 

[Tayla]

What does this even mean. If we are talking about knowledge one either knows something or they do not. What is the difference between active and passive knowledge. Perhaps I'm thinking too much in binary terms and you have some other approach?

I'm reacting against the idea that God lives in a dimension above us and looks down passively, seeing every smallest detail from start to finish.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Thanks for your insightful comment.

Yes, knowing it in the mind. Not by reading the future but, rather, by seeing the plan of accomplishing it in the mind.

Future has nothing to do with it as it pertains to God and the purpose He purposed in Himself before the foundations of the world were set in place. Alpha and Omega, First and Last, beginning and the end...our end takes us back to the beginning...where it all started in creation week/Genesis (God's plan...)

"by seeing the plan of accomplishing it in the mind" is the causation of not "seeing" as God has predetermined...it is more a revealing of God's plan that renews the inner man...reconciles back to the Father...

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(Eternal means lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.) God is not confined to time and space as the human mind perceives...the process taking place within/journey of our soul is all part of the plan of waking us from a deep slumber (as happened to the First Adam), the fall, eating from the forbidden tree...the image being revealed in the mirror...comes in spirit and in truth...the mind of man builds and image (by what they THINK) not able to perceive what only spirit reveals...The Truth we are since the beginning ...

 

[Tayla]

Sounds more like Open Theism then where God doesn't have foreknowledge of free will choices.

Then more like Open Theism or Neo-Molinism.

does the Messianic Jewish faith hold to open theism now?

I'm not proposing Open Theism at all. My view is, in fact, nothing like it. Open Theism has to do with human free will, with God having branched future possibilities, and with explaining evil in the world.

For example, what I'm proposing would be in operation before humans even existed, in the random quantum mechanics probability equations for the position of a particle upon wave function collapse.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Jesus316, my comment about open theism was directed toward Dennis Tate's use of Genesis 22:12 to question/disprove/deny omniscience.

I would like to ask you this however, does God, in 'your' view, know exactly what will happen in the future, and exactly how it will happen, or is the future, even for God, something that cannot be known precisely?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - does this work for you as a general definition of open theism?

Open Theism: God desires that we freely choose to love Him, so He has made His knowledge of/plans for the future conditional upon us and what we want/what we choose to do. In short, God doesn't know what we will choose to do (at least not with certainty anyway).​