Hell is Payback

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[joshua 1 9]

We know that we should not seek to harm those who have harmed us. If fact, we should forgive them and do good to them as the Lord gives opportunity. But putting this truth into practice can be a great challenge when people have faced terrible evil.

I had the incredible privilege of serving the Lord in a Muslim majority nation for fourteen years. I call it a privilege in part because I was able to serve alongside of some incredibly courageous Christians. Here is one short story:

A young lady was learning how to share her faith with her Muslim neighbors. She wanted to do this but was struggling with it. She came to my wife and me for counsel. She told us her story.

Her father had been serving the Lord in a mixed area of Christians and Muslims when Islamic extremists moved in and attacked the area. She was a young girl. After hiding, her family was fortunate to be rescued by the military (the extremists had a militia, but were not part of the government). Her family was placed in the back of a military truck to be driven out of the area to a boat which would take them to relative safety. The truck had boards enclosing the back, but the boards were not tightly fitted so that one could look out the cracks. She looked and saw along the side of the road Christians who had been slaughtered. Now she wanted to reach out to her Muslim neighbors (most of which were not extremists), but this memory made it hard for her.

What do you say to something like that?

The first step in ministering to someone who shares a story like that is taking time to share in their deep hurt. But even for a case this extreme, or rather, especially for cases this extreme, the Bible gives answers.

Part of the answer (a huge, important part) is that Jesus set the amazing example for us by forgiving those who crucified Him. He also offered forgiveness to Paul, who had been involved in persecuting Christians. The blood of Christ is ENOUGH payment for any sin. Even the most terrible, horrifying sins can be forgiven because of the cross.

But not everyone will accept the payment Christ made. In such cases, does the Bible tell us that pay back is wrong? Yes and no. It’s wrong for us to personally seek pay back, but it is not wrong to desire justice, which includes pay back. Paul was writing to a group of Christians who, like the Christians I served among, were facing serious persecution. Notice what he tells them:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Notice that Paul does not say “don’t worry about justice”. Paul says God is just and will pay back those who were persecuting the believers. Paul explains that this will happen when Jesus returns. It’s not wrong to want justice, to want pay back. But vengeance is not our job. It’s God job. God promises to avenge, and uses this promise to free us from the burden and danger of seeking vengeance ourselves:

Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Believing in God’s promise to avenge does not make us angry and vengeful. It frees us to forgive and love. Believing that God is just empowers us to take risks and love our enemies and do good to them, hoping that they will be won to Christ, but knowing that some will continue to reject him and do more evil. We aren’t ignoring justice; we are trusting God’s promise to be just and repay in the end.

I have seen how this truth is part of what God uses to set the hearts of Christians who have seen and suffered terrible evil free to minister to others.

This is one reason I’m concerned about wrong views of Hell. These wrong views of Hell are not consistent with God’s promise to avenge and to pay back, and thus, they undermine this important truth.

How Wrong Views of Hell Can Undermine God’s Promise to Avenge

One popular view of Hell is that it does not really involve any active punishment from God. This popular view says that God simply allows those who prefer not to be in His presence to go on existing without Him. Such an existence is sad and unhappy, but does not involve God actively punishing anyone. This idea may sound attractive to some, but it utterly and totally lacks Biblical support. It is contrary to the repeated and consistent teaching of Scripture. God repeatedly promises to pay back people according to their sins. The Bible portrays God as being active in this. Indeed, God is the one who carries out this vengeance.

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

There is another error regarding Hell which undermines the truth that Hell involves “payback”. That is the common and widespread belief that Hell involves eternal torment. One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

If unrighteous people really did deserve to be tortured for eternity then how does God ever fulfill His promise to repay sinners? If the unrighteous “owe” an eternity of suffering as payment for their sins, then even after a million trillion years of torment they would have repaid far less than 1/1000th of 1% of the debt they apparently owe. In this view justice is NEVER complete or fulfilled.

The view which best fits with God’s promise to repay is annihilationism. God will repay each person according to their sins. The final outcome is that they perish (John 3:16), are destroyed by God in both body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and they are burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This second death is permanent, it is eternal, and is itself the primary punishment for sins which is most emphasized throughout Scripture. However, just as death in this life may be preceded by various amounts of suffering, the “second death” also will be preceded by some suffering which will be truly just. God will repay.

What do you think? Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"? Which view of Hell (eternal conscious torment, universalism, or annihilationism) seems most harmonious with the Biblical teaching of "payback"?


This is a slightly modified (hopefully improved) version of a post on my blog.

We are not justified by works. Those who do work will receive a crown. Even soul winners and martyrs. So they will be rewarded.

I believe that the Bible teaches annihilation at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. God is a God of absolute Justice. Even His Justice is a part of the fabric of the Universe. People have 1,000 years to reap what they sow and suffer for their sins and transactions. As Christians we suffer here in the life because we go onto Heaven where there will be no more pain, misery or suffering.

Luke 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour of which he is unaware. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded.…

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ClementofA]

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

As a "universalist" i see "Hell" as a place of both torment, corrective punishment, & "vengeance". All that is harmonious. I've read many universalist books & forum posts & never heard it described as you have by Christians who support biblical universalism.

One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

The view you support, endless annihilation, is a worse punishment than being tormented in Hell for millions, billions or trillions of years.

Scripture speaks of being repaid double for sins, not double + endless annihilation:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

What is the point in giving an offender 40 lashes before endlessly annihilating them? The endless annihilation is an infinitely worse repayment than the 40 lashes. Adding the 40 lashes onto the endless annihilation is just sadism.

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[com7fy8]

Our own nature makes us capable of being tormented, or comforted. So, hell is partly about a person's nature. The selfish nature will suffer being burned. But the spiritual person can not go out of existence.

So, there is the nature part of hell.

As for payback . . . our Apostle Paul says people will suffer being destroyed from the presence of the Lord > 2 Thessalonians 1:9. And Revelation 14:9-11 says that those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented.

But in order to suffer torment, one has to have the evil nature. And the evil spirit of the person needs to go to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. Hell, then, is also for holding the filth of Satan's selfish spirit > "the spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

So, I would say, I can see, that hell is not only equal punishment for crimes, but it is consequence which is not fair, but so much more than ones deserve. We reap so much more than we have sown; it is not fair, either way > Galatians 6:7-8. We reap so much more than those little seeds we have sown.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ClementofA]

Repayment (vengeance) is harmonious with salvation and with universal reconciliation:

"Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

"And what about judgment? "In the first judgment recorded in Scripture, mercy goes hand in hand. If Adam is to die, mercy follows; the serpent's head is to be bruised (Gen 3:15). So, too, even the vengeance of eternal fire on Sodom ends in her restoration (Jude 7, Ezek 16:53-55). We thus understand the striking juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in God's revelation of himself to Moses (Exod 34:6-7)...[f]ew more beautiful illustrations of the view I am urging can be found than that afforded by the story of Achan, stoned by a terrible judgment..in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:24-25); for if we turn to Hosea 2:15 we shall find this promise, 'I will give her the Valley of Achor for a door of hope' -- words pregnant with suggestion."

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We know that we should not seek to harm those who have harmed us. If fact, we should forgive them and do good to them as the Lord gives opportunity. But putting this truth into practice can be a great challenge when people have faced terrible evil.

I had the incredible privilege of serving the Lord in a Muslim majority nation for fourteen years. I call it a privilege in part because I was able to serve alongside of some incredibly courageous Christians. Here is one short story:

A young lady was learning how to share her faith with her Muslim neighbors. She wanted to do this but was struggling with it. She came to my wife and me for counsel. She told us her story.

Her father had been serving the Lord in a mixed area of Christians and Muslims when Islamic extremists moved in and attacked the area. She was a young girl. After hiding, her family was fortunate to be rescued by the military (the extremists had a militia, but were not part of the government). Her family was placed in the back of a military truck to be driven out of the area to a boat which would take them to relative safety. The truck had boards enclosing the back, but the boards were not tightly fitted so that one could look out the cracks. She looked and saw along the side of the road Christians who had been slaughtered. Now she wanted to reach out to her Muslim neighbors (most of which were not extremists), but this memory made it hard for her.

What do you say to something like that?

The first step in ministering to someone who shares a story like that is taking time to share in their deep hurt. But even for a case this extreme, or rather, especially for cases this extreme, the Bible gives answers.

Part of the answer (a huge, important part) is that Jesus set the amazing example for us by forgiving those who crucified Him. He also offered forgiveness to Paul, who had been involved in persecuting Christians. The blood of Christ is ENOUGH payment for any sin. Even the most terrible, horrifying sins can be forgiven because of the cross.

But not everyone will accept the payment Christ made. In such cases, does the Bible tell us that pay back is wrong? Yes and no. It’s wrong for us to personally seek pay back, but it is not wrong to desire justice, which includes pay back. Paul was writing to a group of Christians who, like the Christians I served among, were facing serious persecution. Notice what he tells them:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Notice that Paul does not say “don’t worry about justice”. Paul says God is just and will pay back those who were persecuting the believers. Paul explains that this will happen when Jesus returns. It’s not wrong to want justice, to want pay back. But vengeance is not our job. It’s God job. God promises to avenge, and uses this promise to free us from the burden and danger of seeking vengeance ourselves:

Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Believing in God’s promise to avenge does not make us angry and vengeful. It frees us to forgive and love. Believing that God is just empowers us to take risks and love our enemies and do good to them, hoping that they will be won to Christ, but knowing that some will continue to reject him and do more evil. We aren’t ignoring justice; we are trusting God’s promise to be just and repay in the end.

I have seen how this truth is part of what God uses to set the hearts of Christians who have seen and suffered terrible evil free to minister to others.

This is one reason I’m concerned about wrong views of Hell. These wrong views of Hell are not consistent with God’s promise to avenge and to pay back, and thus, they undermine this important truth.

How Wrong Views of Hell Can Undermine God’s Promise to Avenge

One popular view of Hell is that it does not really involve any active punishment from God. This popular view says that God simply allows those who prefer not to be in His presence to go on existing without Him. Such an existence is sad and unhappy, but does not involve God actively punishing anyone. This idea may sound attractive to some, but it utterly and totally lacks Biblical support. It is contrary to the repeated and consistent teaching of Scripture. God repeatedly promises to pay back people according to their sins. The Bible portrays God as being active in this. Indeed, God is the one who carries out this vengeance.

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

There is another error regarding Hell which undermines the truth that Hell involves “payback”. That is the common and widespread belief that Hell involves eternal torment. One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

If unrighteous people really did deserve to be tortured for eternity then how does God ever fulfill His promise to repay sinners? If the unrighteous “owe” an eternity of suffering as payment for their sins, then even after a million trillion years of torment they would have repaid far less than 1/1000th of 1% of the debt they apparently owe. In this view justice is NEVER complete or fulfilled.

The view which best fits with God’s promise to repay is annihilationism. God will repay each person according to their sins. The final outcome is that they perish (John 3:16), are destroyed by God in both body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and they are burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This second death is permanent, it is eternal, and is itself the primary punishment for sins which is most emphasized throughout Scripture. However, just as death in this life may be preceded by various amounts of suffering, the “second death” also will be preceded by some suffering which will be truly just. God will repay.

What do you think? Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"? Which view of Hell (eternal conscious torment, universalism, or annihilationism) seems most harmonious with the Biblical teaching of "payback"?


This is a slightly modified (hopefully improved) version of a post on my blog.

I agree with you that the Lake of Fire is where the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence. But I believe that the wicked will be punished in the Lake of Fire for a set amount of time before they are destroyed in proportion to their sins (i.e. fair justice). This is based upon Jesus saying that punishment in hell is worse than having a noose around one's neck and being drowned at sea for making a child to stumble into sin.

Also, I believe "hell" is a real literal place but it is not a torture chamber.

I believe the flame that the rich-man was tormented by could either be:

(a) Fire that is not like a real world fire in the fact that it does not cause intense pain whereby a person can carry on a normal conversation. It is a mild discomfort.

(b) The heat of the flame nearby the rich-man and or in the great gulf between him and Abraham.​

I also believe that the occupants of hell go through long periods of sleep and are awakened for special reasons determined by God like when Jesus visited the spirits who perished during the global flood sometimes when He was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.

A belief in the Lake of Fire being Annihiation and that "hell" is a literal and real place that the wicked go to so as to be tormented is the "Dualistic Conditional Immortality" view.

I never heard of the view on Hell where God lets the wicked to keep existing but for them to be sad and away from his presence, but not punished, etc.

I am curious. Is there a name for this view on Hell?

Anyways, may God bless you in all good that you do for the Lord;
And may you please be well.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I'm not surprised that the first 10 comments have focused on the most controversial (among Christians) part of my OP, namely that it supports annihilationism. However, I'm a little disappointed that no one has directly addressed the main point and argument, which has to do with Hell being pay back.

You have already denied the biblical teaching of hell as conscious eternal torment, so no one ois going to go into the land of make believe and speculation.

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 12:32

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

no forgiveness for these people -not even in the world to come

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending. (Mt.12:32, CLV)

But there is more than one eon to come:

so that in the coming EONS he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph.2:7)

So not being forgiven in the eon to come (Mt.12:32) does not tell us what happens to Spirit blasphemers - after - that eon.
This does:

AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO
in Christ shall ALL be made alive. (1 Cor.15:22)

 

[ClementofA]

John 3:36

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Psa. 103:9: He will not always chide, neither will he keep His anger forever.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. . . . For the Lord will not reject forever. Although he causes grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone.

A literal version reads:

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

2 Peter 2:17

“These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.”

There's no "for ever" here:

These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. (NASB)

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Daniel 12:3

“And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further." (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Daniel 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Daniel 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Daniel 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning in John 3:16 & elsewhere.

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm