Self Defense

Sammy-San

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I actually had to look up that name, since I didn't know who he is. I see he shot and killed an abortion doctor in 2009.

I don't condone his actions.

However, I think that's very different from the kind of situation I was describing. Let's say, hypotethically, a man breaks into a house and tries to abduct a 10-year-old girl from her bed. Should the girl's father stand by and let his daughter get kidnapped? Of course not. So, let's say the father has a gun, and he then shoots the man to protect his child. The intruder ends up dying.

Is the father a murderer? No. He did what he had to do to protect his child. It is not the father's fault that the kidnapper died while trying to kidnap a child. The kidnapper loses his chance at salvation, but it's not the father's fault. It is a direct consequence of his own actions.

What makes these two situations different?
 
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Poppyseed78

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What makes these two situations different?

Well, the biggest thing is that the women going in for abortions were doing it willingly. Ultimately, they made the choice to kill their unborn babies. The doctor was the means to do it, but they could have found other ways.

In the other scenario, the child would have been kidnapped against her will. It was not her choice to be kidnapped.

I'm not really interested in splitting hairs over this.
 
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Sammy-San

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I actually had to look up that name, since I didn't know who he is. I see he shot and killed an abortion doctor in 2009.

I don't condone his actions.

However, I think that's very different from the kind of situation I was describing. Let's say, hypotethically, a man breaks into a house and tries to abduct a 10-year-old girl from her bed. Should the girl's father stand by and let his daughter get kidnapped? Of course not. So, let's say the father has a gun, and he then shoots the man to protect his child. The intruder ends up dying.

Is the father a murderer? No. He did what he had to do to protect his child. It is not the father's fault that the kidnapper died while trying to kidnap a child. The kidnapper loses his chance at salvation, but it's not the father's fault. It is a direct consequence of his own actions.

What about the people who fought King David's armies when he wanted to get more land from them? Or a soldier who goes out of his way to kill people to reach his goal, without witnessing to them?
 
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Divide

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As far as i am concerned it is better to be killed, then be a killer...

I do not understand this sort of thinking or mindset. What about your charge? ie those you protect, family, wife kids, etc..?

I've actually been a pistol carrier for 30+ years now, and never have shot anyone. I've only had to draw it twice. Once against the home invader, and once against a dog attack. One warning shot in the grass for the dog was enough to turn the attack. Praise God the next day he had a brand new chain! (The owner heard the shot).
 
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Adstar

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I do not understand this sort of thinking or mindset. What about your charge? ie those you protect, family, wife kids, etc..?

I've actually been a pistol carrier for 30+ years now, and never have shot anyone. I've only had to draw it twice. Once against the home invader, and once against a dog attack. One warning shot in the grass for the dog was enough to turn the attack. Praise God the next day he had a brand new chain! (The owner heard the shot).

I rely on the protection of the LORD... If it is the LORD's will for me to be killed then so be it.. His will be done... If there is no avenue for me to flee then i accept death..
 
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Divide

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I rely on the protection of the LORD... If it is the LORD's will for me to be killed then so be it.. His will be done... If there is no avenue for me to flee then i accept death..

Well...me too. But I still have a sling and a few rocks.

There's still lotsa lotsa lotsa room for faith and needing God's protection, even with a sling!
 
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Adstar

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From the teachings of Jesus and the NT scriptures i just cannot justify protecting my faulty short life in this fallen world by ending the life of someone else.. If someone kills me then i will be in a far better place,, to die is a release from this gulag world into paradise..
 
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Divide

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From the teachings of Jesus and the NT scriptures i just cannot justify protecting my faulty short life in this fallen world by ending the life of someone else.. If someone kills me then i will be in a far better place,, to die is a release from this gulag world into paradise..

Well generally speaking, me too (to die is to gain), but...he who turns the other cheek too far...gets it in the neck.

If the Holy Spirit tells, don't resist, ok. If He tells me, fight...I will. Sometimes I feel led to carry, sometimes I feel led to not carry.
 
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Well generally speaking, me too (to die is to gain), but...he who turns the other cheek too far...gets it in the neck.

If the Holy Spirit tells, don't resist, ok. If He tells me, fight...I will. Sometimes I feel led to carry, sometimes I feel led to not carry.

His will be done...
 
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Sammy-San

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I actually had to look up that name, since I didn't know who he is. I see he shot and killed an abortion doctor in 2009.

I don't condone his actions.

However, I think that's very different from the kind of situation I was describing. Let's say, hypotethically, a man breaks into a house and tries to abduct a 10-year-old girl from her bed. Should the girl's father stand by and let his daughter get kidnapped? Of course not. So, let's say the father has a gun, and he then shoots the man to protect his child. The intruder ends up dying.

Is the father a murderer? No. He did what he had to do to protect his child. It is not the father's fault that the kidnapper died while trying to kidnap a child. The kidnapper loses his chance at salvation, but it's not the father's fault. It is a direct consequence of his own actions.

How do you apply that principle to the people who died in vietnam and iraq?
 
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Blessed Each Day

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How do you apply that principle to the people who died in vietnam and iraq?
From which side? In either case, you'd have to look at every soldier INDIVIDUALLY; you can't just lump them all together, as each could be fighting for a different cause.
 
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Sammy-San

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From which side? In either case, you'd have to look at every soldier INDIVIDUALLY; you can't just lump them all together, as each could be fighting for a different cause.

Nevermind.

The idea that people who know each other and have disputes force their people to kill each other, who may not want anything to do with each other, is what war is.
 
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Blessed Each Day

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That particular war was to stop the spread of communism, which had been responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, so I think action taken to prevent its spread was appropriate (I have no Scripture verses to quote so I apologize for that) but the problem I have is that there was no glory to God. The US didn't go to war to glorify God, and they surely didn't (I generalize "they" meaning bureaucrats not citizens) care about the millions of lives lost to communism, it was purely an economic war to hedge the US against communism's influence on capitalism.
 
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Soyeong

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What are your opinions about self defense. If you're being mugged or someone starts a fight with you? I don't think we should be a punching bag. I don't see "give the other cheek" being applied here.

Opinions appreciated.

Turning the other cheek is in regard to an honor/shame challenge and has absolutely nothing to do with no defending yourself if you're mugged.
 
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discipler7

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What are your opinions about self defense. If you're being mugged or someone starts a fight with you? I don't think we should be a punching bag. I don't see "give the other cheek" being applied here.

Opinions appreciated.
.
Turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, plucking out your eyes and chopping off your limbs, walking the extra mile and lending to all who ask(MATTHEW.5:17-48) are not actual commandments/laws of God. Cf; Love your neighbor/friend as yourself and hate your enemy - still applies to Christians and Jews.

You only do the above foolishness if you wanna be saved from hell without Christ, like the Pharisees who rejected Jesus as the Christ/Messiah.

At ROMANS.12:19-21 and 13:1, Paul commanded the early Christians to not resist the powerful Jewish Temple authorities and instead bless them, so that God would exact vengeance on their behalf and heap coals of fire on the persecutors'/prosecutors' heads.
... A day is coming soon when the powerful world's government will begin persecuting/prosecuting Christians.
 
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Divide

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What about the people who fought King David's armies when he wanted to get more land from them? Or a soldier who goes out of his way to kill people to reach his goal, without witnessing to them?

They're under authority so are blameless before God.
 
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Divide

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what about post 26? Is that why self defense is different from those situations?

Abortion violence? Uhh...I don't know. I haven't thought about abortion violence much or followed it with interest, nor ever been party to a girl's abortion...

Since you ask...hmmm...aren't most doctors a private practice type of thing? Their own boss?

I could be wrong about that, I'm no doctor. But my gut feeling is...no. Not the same as being a soldier under authority.
 
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