(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[BobRyan]

I am not a "Sunday Christian" although I was born into it.

But speaking as a former Adventist, there are TWO separate mandates.

ONE IS CALLED
the 10 Commandments


The other is called THE LAW of Moses
Luke 24:44
And he(JESUS) said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses,

In that example the term "Law of Moses" is 'scripture' -- all scripture given by inspiration from God. But specifically it is scripture that points forward to the Messiah. He is reminding them that His entire life was fulfilling predictions made about Him in the OT.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There's nothing wrong with being pro-Sunday.

Yes, there is , by association if nothing else, .....

 

[Bob S]

In Scripture it is written,

bind yourself to ONE and you are bound to ALL.

Sunday Christians believe they can pick and choose which of the 10 Commandments are still binding.
Adventists condemn them for that.

9 of the 10 commandments deal with morality. Morality is forever and are part of the agape Law of Love. One commandment dealt with the Israelites remembering creation and their flight out of
Egypt. It did not deal with morality.

Adventist's think they can pick and choose which Laws of Moses are still binding.
God will condemn them for that.

I would never agree to that. Let God be God. I was SDA for 40 years and I loved Jesus as much then as I do now. I was confused just like my SDA brothers and sisters are currently.

Galatians 5
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised(follow Mosaic Law), Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (following Mosiac Law), that he is a debtor to do the whole Mosaic law.(SACRIFICES NOT EXCLUDED)

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Romans 4:14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Something for SDAs to consider.

 

[Bob S]

Yes, there is , by association if nothing else, .....

I don't Know about being "pro", but worshiping on Sunday is as good as any day since there is no directive in the new covenant to honor any day. Those who call Sunday the Sabbath are doing so out of ignorance just as those who tell Christians we must worship on Israel's Holy day.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't Know about being "pro", but worshiping on Sunday is as good as any day since there is no directive in the new covenant to honor any day.

Until you read the actual Law of God that Jeremiah was talking about when he wrote that text about the New Covenant saying "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind". Jer 31:31-33

 

[Bob S]

Until you read the actual Law of God that Jeremiah was talking about when he wrote that text about the New Covenant saying "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind". Jer 31:31-33

Answer this: why are you not observing the feast days like the Messianic believers do if it is the Torah that is written on our minds? If Sabbath is written on our minds why is it that so few ever agree to try to observe it. Why when you hold evangelistic meetings and the Sabbath is presented do you reap so few? If the Holy Spirit were guiding us to observe the Sabbath then the Sabbath observing churches would be overflowing wouldn't you think? The hinges on the back door of Adventist churches are breaking from people leaving. If the Sabbath was really planted on our minds why would we leave? I am convicted to treat others in a loving way, so why am I not convicted to keep Sabbath and all the other laws of Torah?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Follow Jesus"
Whatever YHWH the Father says to do, do.

 

[BobRyan]

Answer this: why are you not observing the feast days like the Messianic believers

For the same reason I have given the 27 other times you ask that question. Because Hebrews 10 points to the fact that the animal sacrifices were ended at the cross 'he takes away the first to establish the second' ... and in Hebrews 7 the levitical priesthood ended at the cross.

And there is no means given in Lev 23 for observing Passover without animal sacrifice.

in 1 Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts ceremonial law with moral law concluding 'what matters is keeping the Commandments of God'

You and I both know I keep giving this irrefutable answer to that question.

I thank you for allowing me another opportunity - to do it again.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

9 of the 10 commandments deal with morality. Morality is forever and are part of the agape Law of Love. One commandment dealt with the Israelites remembering creation and their flight out of
Egypt. It did not deal with morality.


I would never agree to that. Let God be God. I was SDA for 40 years and I loved Jesus as much then as I do now. I was confused just like my SDA brothers and sisters are currently.


Something for SDAs to consider.

There are many ways that Satan accomplishes destroying God's People.

As a former Adventist, I would bet you are more familiar with Scripture than most.

What caused you to leave the church?

Why is the understanding you accept now, which is based on the same Scripture you still read, no longer your accepted understanding?

Could it be said that SOMETIMES, seeing the truth is as simple as ONE ALLOWS ONES SELF to look at things?



You CAN keep all 10 commandments, can you not?

The ONE Commandment that you excluded is the only Commandment that says "remember".
Exodus 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


It is the only Commandment that establishes a "sign" between God and His people.
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.



It is the ONLY Commandment that carries a CERTAIN death sentence.
Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.


It is the ONLY Commandment that establishes as PERPETUAL COVENANT.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.




Where in Scripture is there any other group than Israel, mentioned as God's people?



Before Christ, one had to be genetically linked to the 12 tribes of Israel.


After Christ, if one Keeps the 10 Commandments(not law), and has the TESTIMONY of Jesus, one would be included in the "remnant" of Israel.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




So who do you believe would try to say that the Sabbath is NOT for all generations?

Who do you believe would try to say this perpetual never ending contract is now null and void?



Who would say to God's people, YE SHALT NOT SURELY DIE?

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.


Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:



How would you day Satan is destroying?

 

[Bob S]

For the same reason I have given the 27 other times you ask that question. Because Hebrews 10 points to the fact that the animal sacrifices were ended at the cross 'he takes away the first to establish the second' ... and in Hebrews 7 the levitical priesthood ended at the cross.

And there is no means given in Lev 23 for observing Passover without animal sacrifice.

If you are hell bent on observing parts f the law and ignoring all the remainder then you know what scripture tells you about breaking one law is like breaking them all. There is no reason why you can not build the Temple and find some Levites to run it. There are plenty of animals in the World to sacrifice. The law was Torah 613 laws that included the 10. If you remove one jot or one tittle from the law you know the con sequence. Who are you to think you can decide which of the 613 laws you can disregard?

Numbers 28 has this this to say to Sabbath observers:
Sabbath Offerings
9 “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephahc of the finest flour mixed with olive oil. 10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
That is one of the obligations someone has to do every Sabbath in order to meet the requirements of Sabbath observance.

You are not allowed to light a fire in your homes on the Sabbath. OY and you tell me SDAs keep the law. I guess out of site is out of mind, but Jesus said not one jot or one tittle will bass from the law. And since you do not believe the law has ended then maybe you should start boning up on the requirements instead of making lame excuses. Just tithing and refraining from certain meat does not cut it my friend.

in 1 Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts ceremonial law with moral law concluding 'what matters is keeping the Commandments of God'

Are you so well informed as to which of the 613 laws given only to Israel are "God's commands"? As far as I know you have only picked 12 of the 613.

You and I both know I keep giving this irrefutable answer to that question.

Not so irrefutable when you read what I have posted.

There is nothing that would not allow you to do the following: Lev 23:
39 “‘So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the Lord for seven days; the first day is a day of sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of sabbath rest. 40 On the first day you are to take branches from luxuriant trees—from palms, willows and other leafy trees—and rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the Lord for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in temporary shelters for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in such shelters 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in temporary shelters when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’”

Nothing that would prohibit you from wearing tassels on your garments or leaving your side burns grow. You already refuse to eat what God gave to eat Noah as food. The laws you keep about the meat you eat are found in the "ceremonial" laws. Tithing comes from the "ceremonial" laws and you are required to tithe and if you do not return a "faithful" tithe your prophet says you will miss your eternal inheritance.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Before Christ, one had to be genetically linked to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Did not some number of gentiles seeking YHWH join themselves to YHWH'S people by/in line with /YHWH'S Instructions/ TORAH ?

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

In that example the term "Law of Moses" is 'scripture' -- all scripture given by inspiration from God. But specifically it is scripture that points forward to the Messiah. He is reminding them that His entire life was fulfilling predictions made about Him in the OT.

Yes, ALL SCRIPTURE;

every word

including Mosaic Law and the TESTIMONY of Christ.

So what is WRITTEN in Scripture?



I would be very interested if there is something I have missed.


So THROUGH SCRIPTURE ONLY,

can you show me

where IN SCRIPTURE IT IT WRITTEN

that Mosaic Law can be PARTIALLY observed??

Thank you!

 

[Bob S]

There are many ways that Satan accomplishes destroying God's People.

As a former Adventist, I would bet you are more familiar with Scripture than most.

Until I started studying on my own I was familiar with mostly what SDAs call "proof texts". Come to find out after I started studying that they were not Proof of what they indicate.

What caused you to leave the church?

First of all it was not because of anyone in the church. I enjoyed my brothers and sisters in the church. Most were very kind thoughtful Christians. False doctrines and a false prophet were the reason I left. The more I study the more convinced I am that It was the tugging of the Holy Spirit that I finally yield to

Why is the understanding you accept now, which is based on the same Scripture you still read, no longer your accepted understanding?

Okay, maybe I can explain it this way, look at Rev12: 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Do you see a 10 in that verse? SDAs do. Do you see Ellen White in that verse? SDAs do. How about 1Jn 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Do you see 10 in that verse? SDAs do, but they cannot prove it yet it is their proof text. How about their excuses for Col2,2Cor3 and all of Paul's b ook to the Galatians?

Could it be said that SOMETIMES, seeing the truth is as simple as ONE ALLOWS ONES SELF to look at things?

Truth to some is what they have been programed to believe. Allowing the Holy Spirit to wipeall the junk from us and replacing it with the Word is what gives light to us.

You CAN keep all 10 commandments, can you not?

Name one person that has except our Savior. Why do yu think Jesus came to Earth to die for mankind if we were asble to gain salvation by keeping the 10 commandments ? The ones that do not even require us to love our fellow man.

The ONE Commandment that you excluded is the only Commandment that says "remember".
Exodus 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Nine of the commandments are included in the Law of Love along with hundreds of other sins we can do to hurt God, our fellow man and ourselves. The 10 commandments were just like a 101 course. they were a good start. Something the Israelites could grasp, but they couldn't even do that

It is the only Commandment that establishes a "sign" between God and His people.
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

They had the 10 commandments and we Christians have the Holy Spirit. We have the Creator in our hearts. He is there constantly to remind us of the Creation and the Father that created our Earth and all that is in it. We have that "reminder" 24 hours a day.

It is the ONLY Commandment that carries a CERTAIN death sentence.
Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

And what does that prove???

It is the ONLY Commandment that establishes as PERPETUAL COVENANT.

It was only perpetual IF Israel kept it. They broke it and God gave all mankind a new covenant. Jer31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

See above. It was perpetual until one party would break it as in any covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

As I wrote before writing it with His own finger was a great thing to do, but does that make it anymore binding than what He dictated to Moses and found in the book of the law?

Where in Scripture is there any other group than Israel, mentioned as God's people?

You mean God's special people? We are all God's people and whether it is mentioned or not that is a fact.

Before Christ, one had to be genetically linked to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Not true. Moses father-in-law was not linked and we have no data on anyone else.

After Christ, if one Keeps the 10 Commandments(not law), and has the TESTIMONY of Jesus, one would be included in the "remnant" of Israel.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Not so fast there. I was taught to believe that Woman represents the church. Jesus kept His father's commandments and He asks us to keep His? Are His commandments Torah? No they are not, Torah was what Jesus kept. Jesus is the seed and we are the remnant. Is Jesus God? Did Jesus keep His Father's commandments? After the Cross did Jesus ever ask us to keep His father's commandments?

So who do you believe would try to say that the Sabbath is NOT for all generations?

Paul for one.

Who do you believe would try to say this perpetual never ending contract is now null and void?

All the law was referred to as being perpetual, bu you don't believe it is do you? Perpetual as long as it was not broken. That is why God put the big IF before He gave them Torah.

Who would say to God's people, YE SHALT NOT SURELY DIE?

Why are you asking all of these elementary questions?

How would you day Satan is destroying?

What???

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Until I started studying on my own I was familiar with mostly what SDAs call "proof texts". Come to find out after I started studying that they were not Proof of what they indicate.


First of all it was not because of anyone in the church. I enjoyed my brothers and sisters in the church. Most were very kind thoughtful Christians. False doctrines and a false prophet were the reason I left. The more I study the more convinced I am that It was the tugging of the Holy Spirit that I finally yield to


Okay, maybe I can explain it this way, look at Rev12: 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Do you see a 10 in that verse? SDAs do. Do you see Ellen White in that verse? SDAs do. How about 1Jn 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Do you see 10 in that verse? SDAs do, but they cannot prove it yet it is their proof text. How about their excuses for Col2,2Cor3 and all of Paul's b ook to the Galatians?


Truth to some is what they have been programed to believe. Allowing the Holy Spirit to wipeall the junk from us and replacing it with the Word is what gives light to us.


Name one person that has except our Savior. Why do yu think Jesus came to Earth to die for mankind if we were asble to gain salvation by keeping the 10 commandments ? The ones that do not even require us to love our fellow man.

Nine of the commandments are included in the Law of Love along with hundreds of other sins we can do to hurt God, our fellow man and ourselves. The 10 commandments were just like a 101 course. they were a good start. Something the Israelites could grasp, but they couldn't even do that


They had the 10 commandments and we Christians have the Holy Spirit. We have the Creator in our hearts. He is there constantly to remind us of the Creation and the Father that created our Earth and all that is in it. We have that "reminder" 24 hours a day.




And what does that prove???



It was only perpetual IF Israel kept it. They broke it and God gave all mankind a new covenant. Jer31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

See above. It was perpetual until one party would break it as in any covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

As I wrote before writing it with His own finger was a great thing to do, but does that make it anymore binding than what He dictated to Moses and found in the book of the law?


You mean God's special people? We are all God's people and whether it is mentioned or not that is a fact.


Not true. Moses father-in-law was not linked and we have no data on anyone else.

Not so fast there. I was taught to believe that Woman represents the church. Jesus kept His father's commandments and He asks us to keep His? Are His commandments Torah? No they are not, Torah was what Jesus kept. Jesus is the seed and we are the remnant. Is Jesus God? Did Jesus keep His Father's commandments? After the Cross did Jesus ever ask us to keep His father's commandments?

Paul for one.


All the law was referred to as being perpetual, bu you don't believe it is do you? Perpetual as long as it was not broken. That is why God put the big IF before He gave them Torah.


Why are you asking all of these elementary questions?



What???

I was asking those questions to find out where you were and where you were from in your understanding.

You honestly believe that what God HIMSELF declared to be PERPETUAL through out the generations would not be perpetual/EVERLASTING?


YOU are right about one thing;

TRUTH has no importance in any of THIS worlds's "churches".

Truth has nothing to do with any of the world's churches;

Only twisting Scripture to prove what one BELIEVES TO BE TRUTH matters.

 

[Bob S]

I was asking those questions to find out where you were and where you were from in your understanding.

I could have gone into a lot of detail about how I allowed the church to drain our finances to the point we were living hand to mouth and they still wanted more. What a discouraging time it was. I ended up working two jobs and then started my own business and employed my own children to work for me. It was then that I started questioning God as to why we were so burdened. God answered and I started to see the inconsistency. I confided my problems to an Adventist friend and he was especially helpful about the tithing system. It overwhelmed him with our giving all to the church. He taught me a lot about how the tithing system worked in the Old Testament. and how Christians are to support the work. To make a long story short there is absolutely no such thing as Christian tithing in the Bible. My eyes were opened and I started wondering if there was anything else that the church believed that is not Biblical. Well, there is and It took a while, but now I am free in Christ.

You honestly believe that what God HIMSELF declared to be PERPETUAL through out the generations would not be perpetual/EVERLASTING?

Indeed I do. Study to show yourself approved. The covenant that was to guide Israel was an if covenant. If you will.... read it for yourself friend Ex19:5 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:" They didn't and finally Jesus came and gave all mankind the new covenant, not like the old one. Our covenant is everlasting It is the covenant of grace. The covenant given to Israel was not about their salvation, it was about their becoming a Holy nation on this Earth. Read verse 6. Our covenant is all about our Heavenly home. Our covenant is also the covenant of love.

YOU are right about one thing;

The more you study I believe you will find that I am right about many things. I am not bragging. I have been delving into scripture for a long time and the Holy Spirit has shone me so many things I never knew was shining forth in all those verses. I write on this forum to spread the real truth.

TRUTH has no importance in any of THIS worlds's "churches".

Don't give up . As we continue to learn we become more enlightened. The churches re full of sinners saved by the Grace of Our Savior. We all make mistakes and we all must keep an open mind and not allow people like those that were trying to persuade the Galatians to go under the old covenant.

Truth has nothing to do with any of the world's churches;

Churches are made up of people just like yourself and me. We are all this side of Heaven. We may not know everything that is there for us, but we continue to find more truth. Churches do change. Don't get discouraged, change does not come easy. We are just a spoke in a big wheel. Look for a group that is not or tries not to be judgmental.

Only twisting Scripture to prove what one BELIEVES TO BE TRUTH matters.

Counterfeits are out there. Fortify yourself with the truth you glean all you are able from the Word and you will know the difference.

 

[christopheralan88]

No, Acts ch15 is about one thing only. Which Jewish laws gentile converts should be asked to observe.
I'm positive the Jerusalem Church would not have come up with an answer which would mean gentiles would be considered least in the kingdom of heaven

I know this is an old post, but I'm curious: given your interpretation of Acts 15, what is your interpretation of the rest of the decision of the "Jerusalem Council" as stated in Acts 15:21? Many people think the decision of abstaining from those four things in 15:20 was all there was to the council's decision, but it continues in 15:21.

Acts 15:21
"for (because) Moses (the Law) has had throughout many generations those who preach him (the Law) in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Additionally, it greatly helps our understanding of Acts 15 if we also understand the basics of the Law (Torah) and Pharisee beliefs. Consider that Deuteronomy 30:11 and 1 John 5:3 both say that the Law is not burdensome/difficult. Yet, in Acts 15:10 Peter says "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?". So, Moses (prophesying by the Holy Spirit) and John say the Law is NOT burdensome, but Peter is saying it is burdensome? That seeming disagreement should be a red flag that the topic of Acts 15 is NOT the Mosaic Law. The topic is instead Talmudic tradition (Jewish tradition that was added to the Law).

Please read the attached short pdf of my research on the background of Acts 15. You'll be surprised at how just a little knowledge of 1) the Law and 2) Jewish history will give new light to Acts 15 and the rest of the Bible!

 

[Bob S]

I know this is an old post, but I'm curious: given your interpretation of Acts 15, what is your interpretation of the rest of the decision of the "Jerusalem Council" as stated in Acts 15:21? Many people think the decision of abstaining from those four things in 15:20 was all there was to the council's decision, but it continues in 15:21.

Acts 15:21
"for (because) Moses (the Law) has had throughout many generations those who preach him (the Law) in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Additionally, it greatly helps our understanding of Acts 15 if we also understand the basics of the Law (Torah) and Pharisee beliefs. Consider that Deuteronomy 30:11 and 1 John 5:3 both say that the Law is not burdensome/difficult. Yet, in Acts 15:10 Peter says "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?". So, Moses (prophesying by the Holy Spirit) and John say the Law is NOT burdensome, but Peter is saying it is burdensome? That seeming disagreement should be a red flag that the topic of Acts 15 is NOT the Mosaic Law. The topic is instead Talmudic tradition (Jewish tradition that was added to the Law).

Please read the attached short pdf of my research on the background of Acts 15. You'll be surprised at how just a little knowledge of 1) the Law and 2) Jewish history will give new light to Acts 15 and the rest of the Bible!

I like the NIV because it written in modern English. John in 1Jn3 tells us what is commanded of Christians and it is not Torah in any sense: 9 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

In 1jn5 John assumes the reader has absorbed his prior statement in !jn3. He is in no way referring to our keeping the law of Moses. The law of Moses ended when Jesus came. Gal 3:19. The law given to Israel was not for their salvation, it was for how they were to live in Canaan. Ex19:5-6. That is why Paul could write that the 10 commandments were temporary commands 2Cor3:7-11.

5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

God's commands come to us through Jesus Christ. Jesus kept Torah and he wants us to keep His commands which John so plainly states in 1Jn3. Jon didn't tell us we know we belong to the truth by keeping Torah. He is telling us we belong to the truth if we love God and love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. This is what Jesus commands. All the laws of Moses couldn't save one soul. The new covenant given to Christians along with the gift of the Holy Spirit is not burdensome.

 

[christopheralan88]

I like the NIV because it written in modern English. John in 1Jn3 tells us what is commanded of Christians and it is not Torah in any sense: 9 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

In 1jn5 John assumes the reader has absorbed his prior statement in !jn3. He is in no way referring to our keeping the law of Moses. The law of Moses ended when Jesus came. Gal 3:19. The law given to Israel was not for their salvation, it was for how they were to live in Canaan. Ex19:5-6. That is why Paul could write that the 10 commandments were temporary commands 2Cor3:7-11.

5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

God's commands come to us through Jesus Christ. Jesus kept Torah and he wants us to keep His commands which John so plainly states in 1Jn3. Jon didn't tell us we know we belong to the truth by keeping Torah. He is telling us we belong to the truth if we love God and love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. This is what Jesus commands. All the laws of Moses couldn't save one soul. The new covenant given to Christians along with the gift of the Holy Spirit is not burdensome.

So, you didn't address everything else I said about Acts 15:21, Deuteronomy 30:11, and the history that I gave you in the pdf and decided to go after 1 John 5:3??? You didn't seem to have a problem sticking to Acts 15 when it worked in your favor, but now that it doesn't you jump to other places in Scripture?

But, if you want to do that, that's fine. Here are a couple thoughts:

1) You quoted 1 John 3: "This is how we know that we belong to the truth". What is the truth? Following your logic of interpreting a verse based on what came prior to it just as 1 John 3 is prior to 1 John 5, let's do the same and go back to what came prior to 1 John 3: Psalm 119:142 - "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy Law is the truth".

2) If you're going to quote Paul, you should keep in mind 2 Peter 3:15-17. It's a warning that those who are ignorant/unlearned and unstable/unrooted will misunderstand Paul to be preaching lawlessness (that the Law is changed or down away with). And that was back in those days - how much more so now when we are removed from the Hebraic culture?? So, what is learning? Deuteronomy 4:1-8 talks about our wisdom/understanding/knowledge being the Law. Psalm 19:7 says the Law is perfect and makes the simple wise. If we don't know the Law, we shouldn't be reading Paul.

3) God's commands did come through Jesus, but they were nothing new. If they were, then Jesus would have been sinning, because it says in the Law not to add to or take away from the Law and even someone who works signs and wonders and teaches to obey new commands is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32, and Deuteronomy 13:1-6).

In addition, there is no prophecy in the Bible about the Messiah changing the Law. Instead, you have Deuteronomy 18:15 where the Messiah will be a prophet like Moses. One of Moses' primary roles was to relay/teach God's Law to Israel, so Messiah should do the same. Disturbingly, the Antichrist is prophesied to change the Law (Daniel 7:25). So, if we say Jesus changed the Law, we are saying that He 1) sinned and 2) displays signs of the Antichrist.

3) Everyone likes to say that we are under a new covenant now, but few know what the terms are of that new covenant. Jeremiah 31:33-34 tells us what the terms are:

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

First of all, God says His new covenant is with Israel. So, if you claim to be part of the new covenant, you need to be part of Israel (that's a different topic that I won't touch on here).

Second, God says that as part of His new covenant with Israel He will write His Law on their hearts. The Law refers to Genesis through Deuteronomy in it's entirety. There is no mention of an altered or new Law - it's the same Law that has been referred to in the Bible the whole time.

Third, it says that we will all know God and we won't teach each other anymore. The very fact that we are having this debate, that this website exists, that pastors give sermons every week, that Bible study groups meet every day of the week around the world proves that we are not in the new covenant yet. We are certainly moving towards it, but we are definitely not in it.

Lastly, to understand the "new" covenant we have to understand the original covenant. The original covenant is detailed in Genesis 17 and in 17:7 the covenant is called an "everlasting" covenant. So, if God doesn't change His mind (Numbers 23:19), then how is their a "new" covenant that replaces or does away with the original "everlasting" Genesis 17 covenant? The answer is that the "new" covenant is really a "renewed" covenant because as you read the details of the Genesis 17 and Jeremiah 31 covenants you'll see that they are the same overall terms, just a change in that the Law is written on our hearts in the Jeremiah 31 covenant.

Please don't think that I am saying that salvation comes from the Law. Certainly not! I give evidence of my salvation by following the Law (James 2:18), but my salvation come through Jesus Messiah.

Instead of reading the Bible from back to front and making the first 2/3rds (the Law and Prophets) fit your interpretation of the last 1/3rd (what we mistakenly call the "New Testament"), I would recommend reading the Bible front to back and interpret the last 1/3rd based on the first 2/3rds.

 

[Bob S]

So, you didn't address everything else I said about Acts 15:21, Deuteronomy 30:11, and the history that I gave you in the pdf and decided to go after 1 John 5:3??? You didn't seem to have a problem sticking to Acts 15 when it worked in your favor, but now that it doesn't you jump to other places in Scripture?

I didn't deal with your verses because you used your thoughts or the thoughts of others to add to what was written in Acts15. That is speculation I deal with reality and the verses I posted are reality. We are not under Torah period

But, if you want to do that, that's fine. Here are a couple thoughts:

I am glad to read your thoughts.

1) You quoted 1 John 3: "This is how we know that we belong to the truth". What is the truth? Following your logic of interpreting a verse based on what came prior to it just as 1 John 3 is prior to 1 John 5, let's do the same and go back to what came prior to 1 John 3: Psalm 119:142 - "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy Law is the truth".

And that is the truth, God is eternally righteous and the Torah was the truth given only to the Israelites and it was not given for their salvation. It was given for there well being for as long as they were a nation. Salvation has never been by any laws. Abraham was not saved by keeping laws. If we could pull ourselves up by our own boot straps there would be no need of a Savior. God gave Israel laws that He has never imposed on any other nation. Those laws lasted until Calvary whn Jesus gave His own blood to ratify the new covenant of grace. Christians are to live by the new covenant not the one that ended at the Cross.

2) If you're going to quote Paul, you should keep in mind 2 Peter 3:15-17. It's a warning that those who are ignorant/unlearned and unstable/unrooted will misunderstand Paul to be preaching lawlessness (that the Law is changed or down away with). And that was back in those days - how much more so now when we are removed from the Hebraic culture?? So, what is learning? Deuteronomy 4:1-8 talks about our wisdom/understanding/knowledge being the Law. Psalm 19:7 says the Law is perfect and makes the simple wise.

It seems that James didn't understand Paul either. James wrote that faith without works is dead Paul wrote that we are saved by faith and not by works. Somehow they were not hearing what is the truth. We are not saved by keeping the law. Paul was correct. James is also correct. James was referring to good works (good deeds). Works of the law and works of good deeds are two different animals.

If we don't know the Law, we shouldn't be reading Paul.

I really do not know how to take that statement. Are you referring to me or yourself?

3) God's commands did come through Jesus, but they were nothing new. If they were, then Jesus would have been sinning, because it says in the Law not to add to or take away from the Law and even someone who works signs and wonders and teaches to obey new commands is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32, and Deuteronomy 13:1-6).

Oh come on brother. We are not to add or take away. Jesus is God and He even told us He was giving us a new commandment. He added to the law in Matt 5. If you are going to take that stand then I really have no more to say to you.

In addition, there is no prophecy in the Bible about the Messiah changing the Law. Instead, you have Deuteronomy 18:15 where the Messiah will be a prophet like Moses. One of Moses' primary roles was to relay/teach God's Law to Israel, so Messiah should do the same. Disturbingly, the Antichrist is prophesied to change the Law (Daniel 7:25). So, if we say Jesus changed the Law, we are saying that He 1) sinned and 2) displays signs of the Antichrist

.
Would you care to wager on your statement?

3) Everyone likes to say that we are under a new covenant now, but few know what the terms are of that new covenant. Jeremiah 31:33-34 tells us what the terms are:

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

How about quoting the rest of Jeremiah concerning the new covenant. Was the writer of Hebrews wrong when he wrote:
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

First of all, God says His new covenant is with Israel. So, if you claim to be part of the new covenant, you need to be part of Israel (that's a different topic that I won't touch on here).

Why did Jesus tell His deciples to go into all the World.... Why did He tell us to come unto Him for Rest? Israel is defunct. We all come to Jesus the same way and we ar all part of His kingdom

Second, God says that as part of His new covenant with Israel He will write His Law on their hearts. The Law refers to Genesis through Deuteronomy in it's entirety. There is no mention of an altered or new Law - it's the same Law that has been referred to in the Bible the whole time.

And that is just what He did. Did you ever hear of the law of love. Is the law that is within your heart telling you to wear tassels or keep the feast days? Is it urging people to go to church on Sabbath?

Third, it says that we will all know God and we won't teach each other anymore. The very fact that we are having this debate, that this website exists, that pastors give sermons every week, that Bible study groups meet every day of the week around the world proves that we are not in the new covenant yet. We are certainly moving towards it, but we are definitely not in it.

Everyone has opinions. I don't care to speculate. I enjoy hearing the truth spoken, And the Holy Spirit tells me when it isn't.

Lastly, to understand the "new" covenant we have to understand the original covenant. The original covenant is detailed in Genesis 17 and in 17:7 the covenant is called an "everlasting" covenant. So, if God doesn't change His mind (Numbers 23:19), then how is their a "new" covenant that replaces or does away with the original "everlasting" Genesis 17 covenant? The answer is that the "new" covenant is really a "renewed" covenant because as you read the details of the Genesis 17 and Jeremiah 31 covenants you'll see that they are the same overall terms, just a change in that the Law is written on our hearts in the Jeremiah 31 covenant.

Then I suggest that you bone up on the 613 laws of Torah. Rebuild the Temple and find some Levites to run the thing. Oh and don't forget to wear those tassels and refrain from cutting those sideburns.

Please don't think that I am saying that salvation comes from the Law. Certainly not! I give evidence of my salvation by following the Law (James 2:18), but my salvation come through Jesus Messiah.

Then why are you insisting that we are still under Torah which was never ever meant to be a salvational set of laws?

Instead of reading the Bible from back to front and making the first 2/3rds (the Law and Prophets) fit your interpretation of the last 1/3rd (what we mistakenly call the "New Testament"), I would recommend reading the Bible front to back and interpret the last 1/3rd based on the first 2/3rds.

Thanks for your recommendation. Just maybe you are not correct and just maybe you should consider some of the things I have tried to help you understand. I am an avid reader of the law given to Israel and Israel only. And I am an avid reader of the New Testament writers. When Paul tells me the law(Torah) was until Christ I believe Him and do not try to twist His words. When John tells me that I am right with God by believing and loving I do not try to twist that into meaning that we are under obligation to keep Torah. In Christ, Bob

 

[christopheralan88]

In addition, there is no prophecy in the Bible about the Messiah changing the Law. Instead, you have Deuteronomy 18:15 where the Messiah will be a prophet like Moses. One of Moses' primary roles was to relay/teach God's Law to Israel, so Messiah should do the same. Disturbingly, the Antichrist is prophesied to change the Law (Daniel 7:25). So, if we say Jesus changed the Law, we are saying that He 1) sinned and 2) displays signs of the Antichrist.

Would you care to wager on your statement?

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.