Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Baby Cottontail]

OKAY! Where, then is your big or little list? I can give you 47. If discussion is not allowed then how are you getting away with just a one sided false view? P.S. I am not Unitiarian. I am just present to give both sides of the discussion.

I'm not giving a list because I am after a discussion. Lists with lots and lots of verses and arguments, especially copied and pasted from somewhere else are not conducive to a discussion.

If you are not a Unitarian, then why are you calling the trinitarian view false?

I have participated in several discussions in which the OP argues against the Trinity. I don't mind discussing both sides, in fact I would advocate for creating a sub forum in which it was allowed to discuss the Trinity from both sides. However, as it is right now, it is against the forum rules in Controversial Theology and in World Religions.

If an actual discussion can take place, and you are willing to discuss, then I would be fine with it personally.

 

[he-man]

I'm not giving a list because I am after a discussion. Lists with lots and lots of verses and arguments, especially copied and pasted from somewhere else are not conducive to a discussion. If you are not a Unitarian, then why are you calling the trinitarian view false?
I have participated in several discussions in which the OP argues against the Trinity. I don't mind discussing both sides, in fact I would advocate for creating a sub forum in which it was allowed to discuss the Trinity from both sides. However, as it is right now, it is against the forum rules in Controversial Theology and in World Religions. If an actual discussion can take place, and you are willing to discuss, then I would be fine with it personally.

Okay, lets discuss. Tell me what you believe the following three verses mean, in your opinion. Please explain: No. .1
Ephesians 1:20; if Jesus is God, sitting on the throne, who is the one sitting on his right hand?
No. 2
1 Corinthians 3:23 if we are Christs' and Christ is God's ?
No.3
1 Corinthians 15:28 If Christ is subject to God, how is it that God is All in ALL?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Jesus is usually the exception to eveyhing all the time

There are 2 ways of looking at the divine Godhead. The 3 are One Triune God (there is scripture to support this) or they are separate divinities. I am the former camp.

Actually, I would say there are 4 ways to look at the divine Godhead:
1.) There are three Persons and three Gods (The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be three different Gods)
2.) There is One Person and one God (The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be just names for the one God that God has had throughout time)
3.) There is One Person and one God (only the Father is God. Jesus is a lesser deity or just human)
4.) There are three Persons and one God (the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, yet they are one God -- of the same essence and Being)

All views but the first have been expressed in this thread already. You might think that view #1 is my view, but it isn't.

I would say you are in camp #2 from what you have said regarding Jesus and the Father.

Would you agree?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

In general, I think I have seen how people can make a thing of saying Jesus is God, but they might not themselves appreciate who and how God is. And I consider that Jesus had the priority of showing us how God is, not only to have us know what label to put on Him.

I don't know you enough to make issues about you personally. But I always am sensing reasons to have issues about myself . . . in comparison with God's word and my good example people And in my posts here in Christian Forums, I bring out various issues . . . which, often enough, still apply to me; if you check a few, you will be able to see if I would have any issues about you

Thanks. Yes, that is true. Hopefully, we can all see issues in ourselves that need some work, and that we are growing in the right direction -- closer to Jesus.

There are people who say Jesus is the Father, but it is kind of hard for a Son to be His own Father . . . I would say. And now Jesus is making intercession for us > Romans 8:34. I understand and offer that intercession is between two Persons . . . two Persons of family caring and sharing love; the Son makes intercession to His Father.
I think Jesus mainly means how seeing how Jesus is is the same as seeing how our Father is. It does not mean They are the same Person, but how each One is the same in nature as the other.

Yes, I've seen that on this thread, as well as other threads. I also agree with you on this.

But, also, there is a scripture which I think more exactly means our Father and Jesus are connected > where Jesus says "'I and My Father are one.'" (John 10:30) This does not mean one Person, in number. But They have perfect union with each other, each being all God is who "is love." 1 John 4:8&16

I am in complete agreement with you on this.

And, even if we trust this, Baby Bunny, I think we all need to find out more how this love is and how we become because of sharing with God who is love. There are people who can say "God is love", but how are they living . . . loving . . . as their meaning of this? Or, I should say, how am I loving, as my meaning of this?

How we apply this is important, more than what labels we put on Jesus.

My opinion, though, is that if a person is erroneous about what we should call Jesus, then there can be other things which show up, in what the person understands and how the person is able to communicate about God's word, and how the person relates. Because if anyone . . . me or you or anyone . . . has something wrong, it could be the wrong spirit of this (Ephesians 2:2) can be effecting other things, also, including how we are in our character. So, in case someone is wrong about if Jesus is God, this can mean something significant which is deeper, about the person.

But, on the other hand, ones correct about Jesus being God can be in other ways wrong, including how I can be very swift to look down on people I don't agree with. This is not like how Jesus is. Jesus is the One so superior, but He is not conceited about this. But Jesus left Heaven itself in order to come to us. You ask >
It includes that I appreciate how un-conceited Jesus is, even though He is so superior to all of us. I need to honor how Jesus is loving, by not self-righteously looking down on anyone, but have hope for any and all people, like how Jesus on the cross had hope for any evil person, at all, and care personally for people in prayer > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

Thanks. And agreed.

 

[com7fy8]

Thanks. Yes, that is true. Hopefully, we can all see issues in ourselves that need some work, and that we are growing in the right direction -- closer to Jesus.

Indeed, our real correction brings us closer to Jesus, and not only into self-criticism and guilt. I think this is excellent, what you say

 

[he-man]

Indeed, our real correction brings us closer to Jesus, and not only into self-criticism and guilt. I think this is excellent, what you say

Thank you for being down to earth and honest. We should all try harder to be that spiritual.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

But that's why I quoted the Exodus 6 verse. Your 'God of the Old Testament' wasn't the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, as most are incorretly inclined to think....IMO anyway.

Why do you think the God of the Old Testament is then? If not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

There's always something to disagree with when it comes to religion and politics, it seems. And if you think about it; There isn't a false doctrine out there that doesn't have a "It is written" from the bible, to back it up. And those haughtily claiming to speak Greek to put non Greek studiers down, are spitting in the wind if they think that there aren't many theologians out there, with way more 'Greek' credentials then they have, who will disagree with everyone here claiming their superiority on linguistics.

I don't speak Greek, and I don't know how to read it either. I am impressed by people who can. Yes, all false doctrines are also based on taking certain Bible verses out of their context. I didn't see anyone in this specific thread who was haughty towards those of us who don't know Greek. Rather, I found their statements to be informative. I feel like they were just trying to share their understanding of the Greek for certain passages.

I did notice that they seemed to disagree with one another, which is why I asked them to provide information about how they learned Greek, and for how long they've studied it.

Again, Exodus 6 would disagree with this statement. The 'manifested' name is not a moniker for God. Name is also defined as the "Authority or the Character" of someone. And these 'God names' are simply that. How God is manifesting himself to His creation through out the ages.

EXAMPLE; If you hear a knock at the door and someone saying; "Open up in the name of the law!" Do you look through the peephole expecting to find a 'nametag' with Law written on it? No! You look through expecting to find the character and authority of a 'badge' and a 'gun'. Same thing goes for all this name stuff people are fighting over.

I honestly haven't seen anyone fight over the names used to discuss God in this thread, except for you. People have been disagreeing over whether or not belief that Jesus is YHWH is necessary for salvation. People have also been disagreeing over whether or not Jesus is even YHWH, and whether or not the Father and Son are the same Person.

Actually I did understand your question, I believe. I just don't think you realized how my answers revealed that. And the answer I have is NO to your question.

Ok. You are not alone in that answer. There are others in this thread who have said the same thing. Thanks for answering the question directly, though.

And I didn't think it was a good question, because YHWH , or Jehovah was the God of fleshly Israel going back to Jacob

Do you believe in a Gnostic view of YHWH then?

But that was the whole point of my Billy Graham story. I NEVER heard him preach 'Jesus is full deity' in any of his crusades. So you are questioning those salvations. Did all those people get saved or NOT? If they did, then what you believe 'above' is wrong. Show me one scripture saying you have to believe the deity of Jesus in order to get saved. I don't know of one.

No, I am not questioning those salvations. If they were saved, then they were saved. Billy Graham never taught against the deity of Jesus, as far as I know. I've said elsewhere on this thread, my intent is not to question anyone's salvation. That isn't my place.

There's no reason to conclude that the people at the crusades were not saved.

You're taking my question too literally, and implying things that I definitely did not intend.

I've already stated John 8:24 as an example of a verse in which it looks like you have to believe that Jesus is YHWH.

That does not mean that those who are presented with the gospel, and are not explicitly told that Jesus is YHWH, are not saved, or that their salvations are not real.

Based upon what scripture?

Romans 10

Which means the WORD was not the CARNATE JESUS.

No, that logic doesn't follow. Again, you are taking things to literally. The Word is still the Word, even after He takes on flesh and is Jesus. He's still the same Person.

Hebrews 13:8 (NASB)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

No that's not what I believe. I believe what the bible said "The WORD was God." He gave up equality with God as a SPIRIT and became CARNATE/FLESH. He was obedient to God until the day he was crucified. Which is why Philllipians goes on to say is the reason he was EXALTED back to equality with God and given the NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES. IOW The WORD was God Jesus was born Son of man after the flesh and Son of God in His spirit. When you get born again your spirit is one spirit with the Lord. That is bible.

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation;

Verses dealing with your spirit, not your soul or body.

Who do you believe is God then? What do you mean by saying "your spirit is one spirit with the Lord?" How do you interpret those verses exactly?

 

[GingerBeer]

Okay, then as I suggested before, you actually do believe that belief that Jesus is YHWH is necessary for salvation.

Since there is only one God, to suggest that belief that God became a man -- that means that you have to be talking about YHWH, even if you don't call Him YHWH.

YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, are okay to use. "The LORD" is more frequently used in English.

 

[The Times]

The Word who was from the beginning was God (John 1:1-5), meaning he was uncreated. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel is the Creator, that before and after him there are no other gods (Isaiah 45:5). The mere fact that Jesus who is the Living Word claimed to be before Abraham, transcends his state of being as a being self existing, that is the I Am.

For any created being to claim self existing as the I Am, denies any Creator before and after him. This would be blasphemy if Jesus Christ is not the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

The Jews new what Jesus was claiming to be in the following versus.....

John 10:33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 

[com7fy8]

People have been disagreeing over whether or not belief that Jesus is YHWH is necessary for salvation.

I am open about this. Because I think God is mainly concerned not about what label Jesus gets, but how we are becoming more and more like Jesus, or not.

But, like I offer > if someone has the wrong idea, it can be a wrong spirit has the person understanding things wrong. And this incompetent spirit can also have the person misunderstanding in other ways, including in understanding situations, how to relate with God, and how to understand other people.

But Jesus is clear that our Father teaches people while He is drawing people to Jesus > John 6:44-46. So - - - I can see, that if God is drawing a person to Jesus, then God will change the person to correctly understand Him. But this is not only in ideas, but how to become like Jesus and how to love while growing in how we are pleasing to and submissive to our Heavenly Father.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

fully G-D, fully man and He fully died? either the Most High died or only part of Jesus died. sorry but it cant be both.

Jesus' human body died -- it experienced real physical death. Jesus had a part of Him which lives on after physical death, as we all do. This part did not "die," as neither does ours. I know there is a better way to explain this with the hypostatic union, but I lack the language and knowledge to explain it.

If someone can explain this better, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think Jesus is YHWH, but how it makes sense to me and how I reconcile the fact (that Jesus seems to much different from YHWH), how I reconcile that, is what is considered "heretical" and heresy to most...

Jesus completes or finishes YHWH in my opinion, cause he was or is YHWH to me...

God Bless!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

if Jesus had no sinful nature then why does James teach Jesus was tempted the same as any one else, no sinful nature would mean He was not tempted as anyone else.

Being tempted doesn't mean that someone has to have a bent towards sin. Temptation doesn't equal sin. It does not have to lead to sin.

Adam and Eve also did not originally have a sinful nature. They were tempted, and they sinned. That is when they started having a sinful nature.

 

[The Times]

If people don't believe Jesus Christ is the Creator God, then they unwittingly are making him out to be a transcendent religious leader who led people to God. He would be no different to the religious leaders of Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Satanism etc.

However Jesus used personal pronouns and definite article terms which denies all historic religious leaders to God, when he declares.....

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

The claim that Jesus Christ is coequal with the Father by diverting Phillip from searching for the Father to directing Phillip back to himself, is self sufficient point in case that Jesus isn't just a religious leader, but reinforcing that he is deity who can divert all from seeking God to himself. That is by no measure a little thing, if he was not the one in the same triune being himself.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus' human body died -- it experienced real physical death. Jesus had a part of Him which lives on after physical death, as we all do. This part did not "die," as neither does ours. I know there is a better way to explain this with the hypostatic union, but I lack the language and knowledge to explain it.

My take >

Jesus Christ's body was physical. And therefore His body was not Jesus. Jesus in His body was all God, not at all like we humans . . . created . . . are. But Jesus could feel what was going on, in His body.

But Jesus was God in a physical body; so how He reacted and felt about things was all without sin, all the way God's love had Him experiencing and seeing things and feeling about things.

So, He was not human the way we have been and have been able to react. Because His nature had Him being and seeing and reacting totally differently. And now He is ministering to us His own grace which makes us also strong like He was and is, and He shares this with us, more and more.

So, yes He was human, by being in a human body; but He was not weak so evil and things of this world could control Him and have power over Him to decide how He was and how He reacted.

And Jesus was all that humans can become, of compassion and humility and sensitivity in relating with people. So, you might say Jesus was not human, but humane . . . the way we need to become . . . not only humanly humane, but how God's own grace of His love has us become.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes but the even more important point is that none of this comes to a person through learning doctrine (although many may pretend) rather it comes by revelation from the Father through the Spirit. In other words as fellow believers it is our role to walk in Love with those who don't see things the same way and patiently allow the Spirit to do His work.
If we fail in this role then how can we expect anybody to change their mind?
It is certainly not our job to butt against the fellowship of believers, frightening many away with abstract academic truths.

I'm not trying to frighten anyone away. I wanted to honestly see what other people thought on this subject. I do think that this post would be best to stay in the Controversial Theology rather than have it moved to World Religion, where none Christians could post.

I know that none of this comes from learning doctrine -- but I do believe that the Holy Spirit could work through a discussion, and open people's eyes up to the truth. I know that no one will actually be able to believe without the Holy Spirit leading them to believe.

I admit that I lost my patience with the person who posted the Unitarian website links and list of Bible verses. I wasn't feeling well when I read his posts, which is no excuse. And I am sorry for my actions on that, as I didn't treat him in the most loving way that I could have.

 

[Radagast]

I see. So you hold that belief that Jesus is God is required for salvation?

Yes.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

If one denies that Jesus is YHWH, then they are denying He is God and they are not walking in the truth and they do not have eternal life.

Yes, that does seem to be the implication....

 

[adhidw]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that He was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?

Salvation means that the men spirits finally live with God in heaven ( spiritual realm where God is, peacefully ).

We should know first ; how could we have spirit within our behalf while animals not ?.

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

Now we knew that when we were born , actually God sent in that time a spiritual being to abide in a certain physical creature aka His chosen people/ born of God, while animals and born of flesh man not .

Now we know that we are strangers sojourning in this perishable realm for awhile , then one day shall be moved back to the eternal realm where we were before (God placed first then taking them back later) taking them back = Salvation by God’s grace alone ( spirit of men will never be able to move there by their own efforts or other man efforts = not allowed to eat the fruit of the tree of life intentionally after they fell= not allowed to work on Sabbath day = can never fulfill the laws = there is no salvation by work ) .

1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

How can men realize that “Salvation is by God’s Grace alone” / they should be taught in steps , so He gave His words from OT until NT .

When finally His people understood well about that ( salvation = by God’s Grace alone ) so surely they can bring Glory to God ( the purpose of creation ).

Adam and Eve were driven out from Eden merely to ovoid them from eating the fruits of the tree of life intentionally/willfully , then in this perishable earth we were given hundreds of laws the Torah laws to be fulfilled , very odd !!! is not it ?, where is the simplest to be fulfilled ?.

But no one realized about it even though the time given almost 1,500 years ( Moses era until Jesus where in that time God also had informed them that the Savior is God alone, the redeemer is God alone Isa43:11, Isa44:24 ), they still enthusiastically intentionally willfully trying to fulfill the laws , and surely continue if they were not compelled to witness the demonstration manifested by the Messiah .

So God Himself should demonstrate to His people in the cross event and resurrection , in order to His people understand that the salvation is by God’s Grace alone.



In OT have already said that man is sanctified by sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice lamb were done by the priest = being saved = resurrecting from dead , these were the tasks that the messiah should demonstrate in order men could understand that their salvation is only by God’s Grace .

We summary them as :” Men ,You will never save your self or others what ever effort you may try, because the salvation is only by God’s grace (Eph2:8) , that is what I want to demonstrate to you, I will be killed and three days later I shall resurrect from dead that you may know : the sacrifice blood is my blood = God blood , the priest is me as manifestation of God, the man who is sanctified will be acted by Me that shows you if the salvation is only for the chosen ( not man who says want , but only he or she whom the heart is made to want /written in the book of life before the creation of the world /the spirits which were sent by God from eternal realm to this perishable realm) , then by this event comes to pass you will understand that the salvation is only by God’s Grace, and you that believe (believe if this event is really manifestation of God’s grace ) is the winner you shall be resurrected too in the last day, and you that don’t believe you are the loser because you will surely say that I am not God Him self , and consider Me as a created being as you are , then if I am a created being surely I am spiritually dead too as you are then I shall reach My salvation too by this event( by this event I shall pay my own sins) means this event surely not a manifestation of God’s Grace or there is no premise ”salvation is only by God’s Grace” and every one shall pay their sins by their own effort , then why can’t you fulfill the Torah laws? , why am I said savoir? (Luk2:11), why am I said Redeemer? (Eph1:7), you that don’t believe you are really a loser certainly you are walking to the lof” .

Isa43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee

Isa43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isa47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel

Isa63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Rev1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Rev5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation


Luk2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord

Eph1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hence by His demonstration from that day men began to know that the salvation is only by God Grace by this understanding means men can bring glory to God.

Believe in Him is other word of recognize that the Salvation is by God’s Grace alone it is necessity.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Okay, lets discuss. Tell me what you believe the following three verses mean, in your opinion. Please explain: No. .1
Ephesians 1:20; if Jesus is God, sitting on the throne, who is the one sitting on his right hand?
No. 2
1 Corinthians 3:23 if we are Christs' and Christ is God's ?
No.3
1 Corinthians 15:28 If Christ is subject to God, how is it that God is All in ALL?

First of all, I wanted to apologize for snapping at you when you posted that long list of verses and stuff from the Unitarian website. I should not have responded that way. I wasn't feeling well, but that is no excuse. I am sorry.

First of all, I'm not sure how much of this thread you read before you started posting, but although I believe that Jesus is YHWH, I am not trying to argue that Jesus is the Father.

With that said...
If you are trying to argue against Jesus being the Father, you won't get any issue with me on that.

Since Jesus is not the Father, I see no problem with Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. Both Jesus and the Father are YHWH, yet they are distinct Persons.

Again, I see no problem with Jesus and the Father being different Persons, and I see no problem with Christ belonging to the Father. He is still one God.

How is that all in all in 1 Corinthians 15:28 -- because if both the Father and Son are YHWH, then that would make Him all in all.