Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Saved.By.Grace]

The Greek εἰμί means "I am." The Greek ἐγὼ εἰμί is an emphatic form of "I am." Some translations turn it into "I am he," but that doesn't quite capture the meaning.

Sorry, the Greek "εἰμί" does not mean "I am", but "am", as "ἐγὼ" is "I" in the Greek. There is no emphatic form with the reading "ἐγὼ εἰμί". Can I ask where you got your information from?

 

[Radagast]

Joel 3:5 (LXX), "πᾶς, ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται·"

Romans 10:13, "Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου, σωθήσεται."

The γὰρ in Romans is not part of the quote. It's the word "for" which introduces the quote (except, in Greek, γὰρ is always moved along by one word).

The capitalisation you use did not exist in the original.

So yes, the quotes are 100% identical.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

The γὰρ in Romans is not part of the quote. It's the word "for" which introduces the quote (except, in Greek, γὰρ is always moved along by one word).

The capitalisation you use did not exist in the original.

So yes, the quotes are 100% identical.

still does not show that Paul used the LXX here, as the Hebrew text would say the same thing! My point being that you should not assume anything, unless we know for sure.

 

[Radagast]

Sorry, the Greek "εἰμί" does not mean "I am", but "am", as "ἐγὼ" is "I" in the Greek. There is no emphatic form with the reading "ἐγὼ εἰμί". Can I ask where you got your information from?

Sorry, but you are wrong.

εἰμί is the 1st person singular present of the verb "to be." It means "I am."

Similarly ἐστίν means "he is," ἐσμέν means "we are," and εἰσίν means "they are."

Any textbook for Greek would explain this.

The word ἐγὼ (which means "I," as you correctly say) is strictly speaking redundant; including it makes the "I am" emphatic.

 

[Radagast]

still does not show that Paul used the LXX here, as the Hebrew text would say the same thing! My point being that you should not assume anything, unless we know for sure.

You are suggesting that Paul did his own translation from Hebrew to Greek and got exactly the same Greek as the LXX? It's possible, I guess, although in other quotes it's more obvious that he's using the LXX.

 

[Radagast]

Romans 10:13
Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου σωθήσεται

Septuagint Joel 2:32
καὶ ἔσται πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται

It's not exact

It's 100% exact. I've recoloured my quote of you to show that. Paul is not quoting the whole sentence, of course, and the capitalisation did not exist in the original. Also, the γὰρ in Romans is not part of the quote. It's the word "for" which introduces the quote (except, in Greek, γὰρ is always moved along by one word).

 

[DamianWarS]

Well, it's the link between the different uses of kurios that show us that the verse is being applied to Jesus.

kurios is not the glue that binds this concept that it is referring to Jesus. Paul could have written it directly in hebrew and it would still hold the same meaning

 

[Radagast]

kurios is not the glue that binds this concept that it is referring to Jesus.

Yes it is. That's why, in an attempt to remove the claim to divinity for Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses translate kurios inconsistently in Romans 10.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

εἰμί is the 1st person singular present of the verb "to be." It means "I am."

Similarly ἐστίν means "he is," ἐσμέν means "we are," and εἰσίν means "they are."

Any textbook for Greek would explain this.

The word ἐγὼ (which means "I," as you correctly say) is strictly speaking redundant; including it makes the "I am" emphatic.

Wow, where did you learn Greek? "εἰμί" means "to be" = "AM". "I" is in the Greek "ἐγὼ". If "εἰμί" means "I am" why in the world use "ἐγὼ"! I cannot argue any longer as I feel it will get nowhere!

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Yes it is. That's why, in an attempt to remove the claim to divinity for Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses translate kurios inconsistently in Romans 10.

like they do with "θεὸς" and "προσκυνήσῃς" when used for Jesus Christ!

 

[DamianWarS]

It's 100% exact. I've recoloured my quote of you to show that. Paul is not quoting the whole sentence, of course, and the capitalisation did not exist in the original. Also, the γὰρ in Romans is not part of the quote. It's the word "for" which introduces the quote (except, in Greek, γὰρ is always moved along by one word).

I'm not sure why you are fighting this with me, I'm not the one disputing that Paul is using the septuagint.

 

[Norbert L]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that He was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?

You can certainly state that knowing Jesus is YHWH is no 100% guarantee that leads to salvation either. "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7:22-23

From what I understand, I would call it a large teaching issue within many churches. One of my earliest conflicts within Christianity was, how can monotheist Jews like the apostles believe Jesus could be God and in the trinity? It wasn't until several years ago I read and viewed a modern day scholar who could adequately explain it in everyday plain language.

 

[Radagast]

Wow, where did you learn Greek? "εἰμί" means "to be" = "AM". "I" is in the Greek "ἐγὼ". If "εἰμί" means "I am" why in the world use "ἐγὼ"! I cannot argue any longer as I feel it will get nowhere!

This is why a little knowledge of Greek is a dangerous thing.

With Greek verbs, the ending tells us whether it is I / you / he, she, or it / we / you (plural) / they. See here, for example, or any Greek textbook.

So εἰμί means "I am," ἐστίν means "he, she, or it is," ἐσμέν means "we are," εἰσίν means "they are," and so forth.

What may be confusing you is that when we refer to Greek verbs, or look them up in the dictionary, we usually use the "I" form (βλέπω = I see, etc.) rather than the "to" form (βλέπειν = to see, etc.).

And why in the world use ἐγὼ when it's not actually needed? For added emphasis. Or, as in this case, to refer back to special Old Testament uses of the phrase ἐγὼ εἰμί.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

This is why a little knowledge of Greek is a dangerous thing.

With Greek verbs, the ending tells us whether it is I / you / he, she, or it / we / you (plural) / they. See here, for example, or any Greek textbook.

So εἰμί means "I am," ἐστίν means "he, she, or it is," ἐσμέν means "we are," εἰσίν means "they are," and so forth.

What may be confusing you is that when we refer to Greek verbs, or look them up in the dictionary, we usually use the "I" form (βλέπω = I see, etc.) rather than the "to" form (βλέπειν = to see, etc.).

And why in the world use ἐγὼ when it's not actually needed? For added emphasis. Or, as in this case, to refer back to special Old Testament uses of the phrase ἐγὼ εἰμί.

"εἰμί", in the "present", from the time of Homer, means "to be", "to exist", the English by "am", and Latin, "sum". Believe what you want, but no matter who you quote, it NEVER means "I am", that is why "ἐγὼ" is used, which is the first personal pronoun, meaning "I", the "EGO"!. My end to this time wasting discussion!

 

[friend of]

He that has seen me has seen the Father

John 14:9

 

[com7fy8]

But is Jesus God? Jesus Himself says >

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (in John 5:22-23)

Agreed. Jesus' deity is not at issue here

I understand that this is the question But I am bringing out what is involved in Jesus being God. If we claim that Jesus is God, do we know and appreciate who God really is and how God is? There are ones who claim Jesus is God, but it seems they do not know who is the God they are talking about. They are not following His example of how to be and how to relate in love.

God is not only distant and judging us and only or mainly a subject for theoretical discussion and beliefs. God our Father and Jesus are personal with each of us who are His children, in us our example of how to be and how to love >

"Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:1-2)

Following this example is required. If we know Jesus is God and that God loves us unconditionally, we also need to feed on how this is our example required of us, how God expects us to become unconditional in loving any and all people like He does, and in us shares with us His ability to so love. And in us He is changing us to become like Jesus > this is a main focus of Christian ministry, according to what Paul says, in Colossians 1:28-29, I now see

So, are people mainly talking about following Jesus or are we mainly arguing and judging about what label to put on Him? Does Jesus being God mean we are first busy making sure that we our own selves are following His example????

 

[Radagast]

"εἰμί", in the "present", from the time of Homer, means "to be", "to exist", the English by "am", and Latin, "sum". Believe what you want, but no matter who you quote, it NEVER means "I am", that is why "ἐγὼ" is used, which is the first personal pronoun, meaning "I", the "EGO"!. My end to this time wasting discussion!

Have you actually studied Greek? Did you click that link I posted? Because you are just wrong. Greek works differently from English. Here is the table from the famous textbook The Elements of New Testament Greek by Wenham:

And yes, ἐγὼ is the first personal pronoun. Since its use with εἰμί is not necessary, adding ἐγὼ either adds emphasis or (as here) refers back to the Old Testament. Let me quote Wenham again (assuming you are prepared to believe a textbook):

 

[GingerBeer]

Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

No, it is enough to believe that Jesus is Jesus.

 

[AlexDTX]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that He was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?

His name is Yahweh is Salvation. Yah-Shua, Y'shua. Jesus is the English transliteration of the Greek Iouses, which is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Y'shua. So, yes, one must realize the divinity of Jesus for salvation. In fact, in my opinion, God (which is not His name but a title) is no longer called Yahweh, but Jesus, for by no other name can a man be saved. He changed his name and according to Revelations will change his name again in the future.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

No, it is enough to believe that Jesus is Jesus.

I agree. But, this question has been asked before. Just what is believing in Jesus? I can answer the question but, I'm curious as to what you believe it means to believe in Jesus. Because, believing in Jesus can mean several things.