Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Baby Cottontail]

Hi. You can just open a ticket and a mod will get to you.

Thanks. Just did that

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Romans 10:8-13 SHALL be saved. The others verify that promise.

Okay, thanks.

Yes, there is a promise contained in those Scriptures. But what does it mean to truly believe in Jesus in those verses? Just believe that He exists? Believe that He is Savior? Believe that He is the Messiah? Believe that He is Savior, Messiah, and YHWH?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

You would have to ask a mod to move your thread. I think that it is best posted here in controversial. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and relying on Christ for salvation. To believe is to believe in Christs death, burial, and resurrection.

It just means making Jesus Lord of your life. Confessing him as Lord. Paul said that we cannot call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit. So another minimum requirement would be to become born again so that our spirits can become sinless. But, Jesus does that work when we believe.

I agree that I think it is best in controversial. The problem is that non-Christians and non-trinitarians can't respond to it here. Since one person who really wanted to respond can't -- then the only option would be to move it to world religions, if that person is to be able to participate in it.

I wonder what belief in Jesus as the Messiah entailed back then. Did the Jews in Jesus' day consider the Messiah to be YHWH? The high priest seemed to consider Jesus' claim to be the Messiah to be blasphemy.

So...was there even a division between believing Jesus as Messiah and believing Jesus as both Messiah and YHWH back then?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Guys I just had a thought. When Jesus said "If you don't believe that I am he" could he have meant if you don't believe I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins?

You have hit one of my main questions here....

Yes, He could have meant that. But Saved.by.grace looked at the Greek and says that it just says "I am" in the Greek. In other words, the "He" part was added in by the translators.

If it is just "I Am" and that is what Jesus meant, then that would be a claim to be YHWH.

If, instead, He meant "I am the Messiah," why wouldn't He have said that? I suppose He might have left it out, with the understanding that they knew what He meant.

But...considering this is a found leading up to John 8:58, I have to wonder if Jesus meant "I AM," but his audience didn't quite get it until 8:59.

So...we have to look at the full context here. It does make a difference whether or not Jesus was just talking about believing that He was the Messiah, or believing that He was both the Messiah and the I AM.

That's also why I'm going to see if Saved.by.grace can check some verses in the OT for me to see how the Greek version of the OT phrases some other "I Am" verses.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I agree that I think it is best in controversial. The problem is that non-Christians and non-trinitarians can't respond to it here. Since one person who really wanted to respond can't -- then the only option would be to move it to world religions, if that person is to be able to participate in it.

I wonder what belief in Jesus as the Messiah entailed back then. Did the Jews in Jesus' day consider the Messiah to be YHWH? The high priest seemed to consider Jesus' claim to be the Messiah to be blasphemy.

So...was there even a division between believing Jesus as Messiah and believing Jesus as both Messiah and YHWH back then?

Yeah, considering the Jews of the time wanted to stone him to death I don't think the Jews thought the Messiah would be Yahweh. They're waiting for a conqueror like David to be their Messiah.

 

[Neostarwcc]

You have hit one of my main questions here....

Yes, He could have meant that. But Saved.by.grace looked at the Greek and says that it just says "I am" in the Greek. In other words, the "He" part was added in by the translators.

If it is just "I Am" and that is what Jesus meant, then that would be a claim to be YHWH.

If, instead, He meant "I am the Messiah," why wouldn't He have said that? I suppose He might have left it out, with the understanding that they knew what He meant.

But...considering this is a found leading up to John 8:58, I have to wonder if Jesus meant "I AM," but his audience didn't quite get it until 8:59.

So...we have to look at the full context here. It does make a difference whether or not Jesus was just talking about believing that He was the Messiah, or believing that He was both the Messiah and the I AM.

That's also why I'm going to see if Saved.by.grace can check some verses in the OT for me to see how the Greek version of the OT phrases some other "I Am" verses.[/QUOTE

That would be interesting yeah. It was just a thought.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

'I think' I have a question...or two.

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And my question is. Would you agree that "LORD"/JHWH was speaking to the "Lord" in this verse above? If so, then is Jesus talking to himself? Or is it the Father speaking to the Son?

Awesome question, and something to really look into.

I would be interested in seeing how other people would answer this as well.

I would agree that LORD was speaking to the Lord in that verse, yes. I think it would be the Father speaking to the Son.

 

[com7fy8]

But what does it mean to truly believe in Jesus in those verses?

Our Apostle Paul says "we" "who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, I understand that believing includes trusting.

But is Jesus God? Jesus Himself says >

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (in John 5:22-23)

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yeah, considering the Jews of the time wanted to stone him to death I don't think the Jews thought the Messiah would be Yahweh. They're waiting for a conqueror like David to be their Messiah.

I think that there may have been more of a varied opinion of what the Messiah would be like back then, than Jewish people have now.

For example, I wonder if back in Jesus' day Daniel 7:13-14 was considered a Messianic verse. Jesus seems to refer to it several times in the NT.

Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
"I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

When Jesus was talking to the High Priest, the High Priest seemed to consider it blasphemy that Jesus would apply this verse to Himself.

They did seem to think that the Messiah would also be a conquerer. But did at least some of them at the time consider the Messiah to be YHWH as well? I have to wonder.

 

[Radagast]

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Yes, that's exactly what Paul is doing, which is why Jehovah's Witnesses change what Paul says in their "Bible."

Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

Historically, the Church has indeed believed that.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Our Apostle Paul says "we" "who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, I understand that believing includes trusting.

But is Jesus God? Jesus Himself says >

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (in John 5:22-23)

Agreed. Jesus' deity is not at issue here

What is at issue is whether or not believing in Jesus being YHWH is necessary for salvation.

When I read the NT letters, I make the assumption that all the writers believed in the fully deity of Jesus. We know that Paul did.

So....is believing that Jesus is YHWH part of the full package of what it means to believe or hope in Jesus?

The NT doesn't seem to mention any group of people who believed in Jesus, and yet denied His Deity. The Bible does mention that there are false Jesus' being preached, and there seems to be early Gnostic ideas that the NT writers are contending with. Those individuals all believed in a different Gospel as well.

There just doesn't seem to be anything in the Bible about someone who trusts in Jesus for salvation, and yet does not believe in His Deity. So, either this was not an issue in the early church (it was just assumed people believed it), or the early Christian leaders didn't consider it an issue whether or not someone believed that Jesus was YHWH.

 

[Radagast]

So....is believing that Jesus is YHWH part of the full package of what it means to believe or hope in Jesus?

Yes.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes, that's exactly what Paul is doing, which is why Jehovah's Witnesses change what Paul says in their "Bible."

Historically, the Church has indeed believed that.

Yes, the Church has believed that belief that Jesus is YHWH is necessary for salvation. The Athanasian Creed makes that very clear.

I've just run into several Christians recently who don't agree that it is an issue of salvation (although they are trinitarian themselves), and surprisingly, some of them never have considered whether or not it could be an issue of salvation.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes.

That's what I'm thinking.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I think that there may have been more of a varied opinion of what the Messiah would be like back then, than Jewish people have now.

For example, I wonder if back in Jesus' day Daniel 7:13-14 was considered a Messianic verse. Jesus seems to refer to it several times in the NT.

Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
"I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

When Jesus was talking to the High Priest, the High Priest seemed to consider it blasphemy that Jesus would apply this verse to Himself.

They did seem to think that the Messiah would also be a conquerer. But did at least some of them at the time consider the Messiah to be YHWH as well? I have to wonder.

I didn't know that verse existed. It's very poetic. Some of the Jews believed Jesus's claims yeah. But, most didn't.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I didn't know that verse existed. It's very poetic. Some of the Jews believed Jesus's claims yeah. But, most didn't.

Yeah, I hadn't really known about that passage until a pastor at a church I attended made it the main text that he preached from one Sunday. He was using the NIV, and the NIV uses the word "worship" instead of "serve." I'm not sure which is more accurate to the Hebrew. I would guess the NASB, as it is generally considered one of the most literal, which is why I use it on the forums here.

It is an awesome verse

 

[Neostarwcc]

Well I guess I have no idea what I'm talking about then.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Another passage that talks about salvation here and makes me wonder if belief in Jesus as YHWH is necessary for salvation is this one:

Isaiah 45:21-25 (NASB)
Declare and set forth your case; indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me.

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other, I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will sear allegiance.

They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. In the LORD all the offspring of Israel will be justified and will glory."


Compare that with Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in the appearance of a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Well I guess I have no idea what I'm talking about then.

What do you mean?

 

[Radagast]

Yeah, I hadn't really known about that passage until a pastor at a church I attended made it the main text that he preached from one Sunday. He was using the NIV, and the NIV uses the word "worship" instead of "serve." I'm not sure which is more accurate to the Hebrew. I would guess the NASB, as it is generally considered one of the most literal, which is why I use it on the forums here.

It is an awesome verse

Paul, of course, is quoting the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament), which uses the word kurios both to mean YHWH ("LORD" in most Bibles) and the ordinary word "lord."

With the Joel quote, that allows Paul to deliberately mix up "Lord Jesus" and "YHWH," as a way of highlighting the divinity of Christ. He's telling us that the Joel verse applies to Jesus.