"you just refuse to address my response".
Nonsense. All have been addressed. You have to state how consistent your view is to God's nature.
John 6:
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Nothing can be more clear than the above.
....
It concerns John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
Everyone agrees with Jesus when He said that He would draw all men to Himself. Without expounding on that idea at length, I would point out to you that one verse talks about Jesus drawing all men to Himself while the original verse talked about the Father drawing people to the Son in the context of Jesus saying that "all that the Father gives to me will come to me".
I know you have a problem with the idea of an internal, specific, or effectual call as found in Romans 8 as opposed to the general call we all agree with. The difference as I and many theologians see it is as clear and unmistakable as can be all things considered.
I agree that Jesus draws all men to Himself in the same way that there is a general or universal call presented in the scriptures and proclaimed by us in evangelism. A related concept might be when God says that He has reconciled the entire world to Himself not counting their sins against them over against justification or personal making right with God through faith.
".....God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:19
It seems to me to be "crystal clear" in what sense the Father's drawing of those who come to Jesus is presented.
He makes what way He meant it very (crystal) clear shortly after stating that truth found in John 6:44.
"But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:64-65
He was clearly talking about the Father giving, granting and drawing certain men to the Son in a special calling sense.
...
With any topic it is important to look at the harmony of scripture (scriptures will not contradict) on it, not just what a couple verses say alienated from the whole; as well as be careful not to go beyond the text and treating interpretations as explicit teachings.
No man can come to Christ unless the Father draw Him - all Christians would agree. The drawing by the Father is a prerequisite to coming to Christ. But it is a step further beyond that to claim that all the Father draws will come, or that this refers to a special grace not given to all at Christ's death.
Furthermore, what is meant by 'drawn' has to be found in scripture and not asserted or assumed. Does 'drawn' mean given faith? Made receptive to faith? Given the evidence for faith? Compelled to examine the evidence for faith? Attracted to the gospel message? Drawn in by the words of the prophets to understand their fulfillment in Christ? Drawn in by Christ's death and ascension? Drawn by the various proofs in the scripture? Etc.
The entirety of John chapter six sheds light on this, for Jesus dives into detail as to what he means earlier in the chapter:
"Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.
Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35-40
Jesus is equating those the Father gives, who come to Him, with those who have faith and look to the Son. It is those with faith who the Father wills
come to Christ, that Christ not turn
away, and that Christ raise
on the last day.
We see then that
faith is a prerequisite to coming to Christ as well, not just being drawn by the Father,
and that it is those with faith that the Father wills come to Christ and that Christ give eternal life.
This leads us with a few logical possibilities for the passage so far:
1) The Father draws some by giving a special grace to respond in faith to the revelation of Christ, those respond in faith by this special grace, and then the Father gives them to Christ so they come to Him.
2) The father draws some by giving a special grace to respond in faith, some of those respond in faith, the Father wills the ones with faith to be given to Christ and they come to Christ.
3) The Father draws everyone, but only some respond in faith, and those who respond in faith the Father wills to come to Christ.
4) Prior to Christ's death the Father only drew some, some of those came to Christ by responding in faith, and those the Father willed to be given to Christ.
5) Prior to Christ's death the Father only drew some, all those drawn responded in faith, and those of faith the Father willed to be given to Christ.
6) Before Christ's death the Father drew some by the words of the prophets, but after Christ's death the Father draws all through Christ
7) The Father draws some by giving them faith in Christ and wills that they come to Christ
Etc.
There actually are a few more variations, but the main thing to realize is that Jn 6:44 of itself doesn't mandate any one possibility as the only possibility. However, the rest of the chapter does narrow the options down:
"“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (Note that it is the ones that are both drawn and come that are raised up. The verse does not say that all those drawn will come.) It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jn 6:43-51
Here
Jesus sets up being drawn by the Father as a prerequisite to coming, and coming as a prerequisite to eternal life. Those who did come are described as 'hearing and learning' from the Father. Jesus describes those who come both as 'being drawn by the Father' and 'heard the Father and learned from Him.' He doesn't say in this paragraph whether those two things are synonyms or one follows the other, but 'Heard the Father and learned from Him' has close parallels with receiving the gospel message.
This gives a few possibilities:
- The Father draws all by speaking and teaching to them in some manner (the Spirit, scripture, etc.) and those who hear and learn come
- The Father draws some by speaking and teaching in such a manner that those He teaches cannot fail to hear and learn, then they come
- Some seek/hear the Father's words and teachings (such as prophecy, the words of Christ, etc.) and the Father draws them
- The Father draws all through Christ, but only some hear and learn from the Father
Eternal life is again linked with those who believe. The bread of heaven He does not restrict to only those drawn by the Father, but says anyone may eat it, and that is his flesh which He gives for the life of the world.
(Could it be that the offering of the flesh given for the world is one way the Father draws?)
"Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but
whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jn 6:53-58
The Father *sent* the Son, and therefore the one who feeds on Christ will live. This seems to support the Father drawing people to Him through the Son. Jesus is also telling them that 'unless you eat the flesh of the Son you have no life' - again a reference to eternal life only coming through faith.
"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it? Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “
This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it has been offered them by the Father.” From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him." Jn 6:60-67
We see a few things in this section:
- A link between Jesus' ascension and His lifting up before all men
- A statement that the Spirit gives life, and that His words are full of the Spirit and life (not that one needs the Spirit to understand the words, but that the words are full of the Spirit!)
- A reiteration that it must be given/offered/supplied by the Father to come to Christ - man doesn't come on His own
- A statement that despite Jesus' choice, Judas was later to betray Him
- A clarification that Jesus knew from the beginning (foreknowledge) that Judas would betray Him
We see a clarification of -How- the Father gives the ability to come to Christ in the case of the disciples:
"“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me." Jn 17:6-8
We see that in the case of the disciples (one of whom did not believe) that they were previously "The Father's" but the Father gave them to Son! (Could this be speaking of a transfer of dominion/authority?) The Father gave the Word to the Son, the Son gave them the words, and 11 of the 12 received the words and accepted them and believed the Father had sent Christ.
Their faith/belief is specifically linked with receiving the words that Christ was given by the Father as true.
But Jn 6 never says that those -drawn- by the Father will necessarily get eternal life. It simply states the fact that no one can believe or come without the Father drawing them.
It is like the difference between the premise 'No one can reach the top of the mountain except by accepting a free ticket and taking a ride up the Father's ski lift' and 'The Father chooses a few people who He compels with no ability to refuse to take His ski lift up the mountain - but everyone else is stuck down below, and though they can see the ski-lift, will never ask nor seek to take it because the Father hasn't given them the ability to even want to take the ski lift.'
The first premise merely sets up a baseline requirement, but doesn't ensure the end result. The second premise includes a dizzying array of assertions and is really a nunber of premises rolled into one. Yet the phrase "no one can come unless the Father draws Him" is far closer to the first premise than the second. It does not logically demand, of itself, that anyone drawn come, or that the Father only draw some and not all, or that the Father draw in the exact same manner throughout time, etc.