Faith or Predestination

[Marvin Knox]

You can claim that, but unless you can show it from Scripture it's just an opinion.

The context for the predestination of Jacob instead of Esau is what it is and it speaks for itself. It's impossible to miss - no matter if you believe it only to be talking about service or something more as the Calvinists say. The "service" of Jacob included personal choices and actions to bring what was predestined to past. Surely that is obvious.

The statement that God predestines everything is all through the scriptures is a necessary belief based on His omniscience alone.

God knew from before any creation whatsoever exactly what all would transpire within His creation should He act in certain ways by creating and by innumerable actions which He does every second of every day.

There was no chance at all that what He knew would transpire within His creation should He act in certain ways by creating and by innumerable actions which He does every second of every day - would not indeed happen.

He was and is required by no one but His own wisdom to act in the ways He has and does. He predestined all which transpires to transpire the very moment He so created and in whatever ways He continues to act every split second of every day.

Only God possesses the attribute of aseity. Nothing happens or, indeed, exists without His sovereign decision that it does so.

Within that scripture based framework we exist, make choices and interact with our creator. But only within that framework.

If you believe otherwise, you don't believe the Bible.

Also -while I don't agree with everything many so called Calvinists teach or the way they say it - I must say that their world view is very much more in line with what the scriptures teach than those who oppose them.

I've always maintained that people who do not believe in the predestination of all that happens in God's creation almost have to be worshiping a different God than the omniscient, omnipresent, and providentially involved God I see in the scriptures.

 

[SBC]

Faith or Predestination

It is Not an either or -

Predestination IS BECAUSE of FAITH.

Thee ALL KNOWING GOD, KNEW YOU BEFORE you were born on this earth.

Thee ALL KNOWING GOD, KNEW YOUR CHOICE before you did/do.

Thee ALL KNOWING GOD, prepared a place for you, IF you ARE faithful or NOT.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Butch5]

Exactly.

The context of 1 Corinthians 2 is one which starts and finishes with showing how men without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God.

His point is to show the Corinthians that they are acting like the natural man, they are carnal. However, he says that the natural man doesn't receive the spirit. Paul uses the middle voice here which shows that the natural man has rejected the things of God because they are foolishness to him.

The context for the John passage is, as Jesus clearly said, understanding the reason why some men come to Him and believe while others do not.

It's really irrelevant since Paul wrote to the Corinthians years after the crucifixion. Jesus was no longer on Earth so people couldn't come to Him anyway.

 

[Butch5]

The context for the predestination of Jacob instead of Esau is what it is and it speaks for itself. It's impossible to miss - no matter if you believe it only to be talking about service or something more as the Calvinists say. The "service" of Jacob included personal choices and actions to bring what was predestined to past. Surely that is obvious.

And that context is what?

The statement that God predestines everything is all through the scriptures is a necessary belief based on His omniscience alone.

Yet you gave none

God knew from before any creation whatsoever exactly what all would transpire within His creation should He act in certain ways by creating and by innumerable actions which He does every second of every day.

There was no chance at all that what He knew would transpire within His creation should He act in certain ways by creating and by innumerable actions which He does every second of every day - would not indeed happen.

He was and is required by no one but His own wisdom to act in the ways He has and does. He predestined all which transpires to transpire the very moment He so created and in whatever ways He continues to act every split second of every day.

Only God possesses the attribute of aseity. Nothing happens or, indeed, exists without His sovereign decision that it does so.

Within that scripture based framework we exist, make choices and interact with our creator. But only within that framework.

If you believe otherwise, you don't believe the Bible.

Again, unless you can prove it from Scripture it's just an opinion

Also -while I don't agree with everything many so called Calvinists teach or the way they say it - I must say that their world view is very much more in line with what the scriptures teach than those who oppose them.

Actually, it's not. When people are taught to proof text instead of looking at the Bible as a cohesive whole of God's dealing with men from beginning to end it's easy to get off into all kinds of erroneous ideas and teachings. That there are so many beliefs shows that proof texting is not proper exegesis. The problem is that people who become Christians are indoctrinated before they know much about the Scriptures. Each denomination indoctrinates new converts to their theological beliefs. That Calvin's doctrines were nowhere in the Church before Augustine proves decisively that they are not the original teaching of the Christian faith, therefore they are aberrations.

I've always maintained that people who do not believe in the predestination of all that happens in God's creation almost have to be worshiping a different God than the omniscient, omnipresent, and providentially involved God I see in the scriptures.

Well, I don't know what you see, but the Scriptures show us that the God of the Bible doesn't always have His will done. That being the case it's obvious that all things aren't predestined.

 

[RisenInJesus]

You believe that you must believe to be born again. I do not.

When I read this I don't even know what to think. How can anyone claiming to be a Christian even say something like this? The scriptures over and over again indicate that one must believe to be saved. The word "believe" is used over 200 times in the NT most often referring to one believing in the gospel and Jesus Christ for salvation and eternal life. Is the Bible simply wasting words or do Calvinists have another gospel?

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:16

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 11:25

...Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 20:31

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. Acts 16:30-32

 

[SBC]

You believe that you must believe to be born again. I do not.

Huh? Yipes, Jesus believed YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

When I read this I don't even know what to think. How can anyone claiming to be a Christian even say something like this?

AGREE!

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

Huh? Yipes, Jesus believed YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

God Bless,
SBC

Again, you are arguing against something I didn’t say. I never said that you didn’t need to be born again.

 

[Hammster]

When I read this I don't even know what to think. How can anyone claiming to be a Christian even say something like this? The scriptures over and over again indicate that one must believe to be saved. The word "believe" is used over 200 times in the NT most often referring to one believing in the gospel and Jesus Christ for salvation and eternal life. Is the Bible simply wasting words or do Calvinists have another gospel?

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:16

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 11:25

...Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 20:31

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. Acts 16:30-32

We must believe to be justified. Belief isn’t a requirement to be born again.

 

[Marvin Knox]

His point is to show the Corinthians that they are acting like the natural man, they are carnal. However, he says that the natural man doesn't receive the spirit. Paul uses the middle voice here which shows that the natural man has rejected the things of God because they are foolishness to him.

Exactly! I'm glad you agree.

The natural man rejects the things of God and finds them foolish because they are spiritually discerned and they are personally spiritually dead.

It's really irrelevant since Paul wrote to the Corinthians years after the crucifixion. Jesus was no longer on Earth so people couldn't come to Him anyway.

Well - that's between you and the Lord. It's never too late so long as you are living here on earth.

Since He was lifted up He has drawn all men to Himself.

I came to Him in 1958 and returned to Him again in 1973 after a time away in the world.

And that context is what?

Romans 9 is a short chapter. I could print it out for you. But if you look at Bible Gateway you can read it for yourself.

yet you gave none......Again, unless you can prove it from Scripture it's just an opinion

You can as easily discern this doctrine as you can the doctrine of the Trinity. I won't read the scripture for you.

Actually, it's not. When people are taught to proof text instead of looking at the Bible as a cohesive whole of God's dealing with men from beginning to end it's easy to get off into all kinds of erroneous ideas and teachings. That there are so many beliefs shows that proof texting is not proper exegesis. The problem is that people who become Christians are indoctrinated before they know much about the Scriptures. Each denomination indoctrinates new converts to their theological beliefs.

I agree.

That's why almost all good systematic, cohesive and thorough theology works since the time of the Reformation when the scriptures became readily available come to a more or less Reformed view of things.

That Calvin's doctrines were nowhere in the Church before Augustine proves decisively that they are not the original teaching of the Christian faith, therefore they are aberrations.

I can't speak much for Calvin and his doctrines. But the 66 books of scripture we generally accept now taught all of the things I am teaching when the systematic cohesive whole is considered.

Well, I don't know what you see, but the Scriptures show us that the God of the Bible doesn't always have His will done. That being the case it's obvious that all things aren't predestined.

That simply isn't true.
There are, as you should know if you are discussing systematic theology as you are, several kinds of "wills of God" taught in the scriptures.
For example:

The preceptive or command will of God.

The preferential or desiderative will of God; also called God’s will of disposition.

The directive will of God.

The discerned will of God.

The predestined / sovereign / decreed will of God.

And sometimes the permissive will of God.

Every example of His will we could show from history, in whatever form it takes, was predestined to occur exactly as it did.

As a detailed example - it is obvious that it is not the will of God that any should perish. He says so.

And yet He predestined that some would be saved and others would perish. He did so by the act of setting up a means of salvation which requires faith while He knew full well that some would not have faith and would thus not achieve salvation.

Obviously it was also predestined that Jesus Christ would be crucified for the sins of the world. But obvious as well is the fact that God is not the author of evil and did not approve of the evil actions of those who crucified Jesus.

Of course, from these examples and more, we can see why the doctrine of the different wills of God must be true and considered in any good systematic theology.

 

[SBC]

Again, you are arguing against something I didn’t say. I never said that you didn’t need to be born again.

Let's examine what you said...

You believe that you must believe to be born again. I do not.

Seriously? You believe UNBELIEVERS are or can be "born again"?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Butch5]

Exactly! I'm glad you agree.

The natural man rejects the things of God and finds them foolish because they are spiritually discerned and they are personally spiritually dead.

Paul didn't say anything about "spiritually dead." What exactly is that? If you look at the historical background you'll see that the Greeks found the idea of resurrection absurd. In the Greek mind the goal was to ascend into the heavens and be with the ultimate god. Sound familiar?

Well - that's between you and the Lord. It's never too late so long as you are living here on earth.

Since He was lifted up He has drawn all men to Himself.

I came to Him in 1958 and returned to Him again in 1973 after a time away in the world.

Well, how exactly would someone come to Jesus? Did you go into Heaven? You're conflating two ideas. When Jesus spoke of coming to Him, He was in person on Earth. People could literally come to Him. You're using His words in a non literal sense to fit some meaning that you have in your own mind. That's why I said, context.

Romans 9 is a short chapter. I could print it out for you. But if you look at Bible Gateway you can read it for yourself.

That's true. However, I'm asking for your understanding of the context. You see, if you don't understand the context then you're proof texting the passage which is the point I was making.

You can as easily discern this doctrine as you can the doctrine of the Trinity. I won't read the scripture for you.

Because you know as well as I do that there is no Scripture that says God controls everything. It's simply a concept of Reformed theology that's imposed on God.

I agree.

That's why almost all good systematic, cohesive and thorough theology works since the time of the Reformation when the scriptures became readily available come to a more or less Reformed view of things.

I doubt that. However, as I pointed out. These ideas weren't in the church before Augustine. As a matter of fact several of them were held by the Gnostics which the early Christians flatly rejected. When one takes the entirety of the Bible in context it's not likely that they will come to a Reformed view.

I can't speak much for Calvin and his doctrines. But the 66 books of scripture we generally accept now taught all of the things I am teaching when the systematic cohesive whole is considered.

No, they don't. That's the point I was making when I said converts are indoctrinated into the theology of the denomination they're in. We can see from the earliest Christians what the apostles taught and it wasn't Calvinism.

That simply isn't true.
There are, as you should know if you are discussing systematic theology as you are, several kinds of "wills of God" taught in the scriptures.
For example:

The preceptive or command will of God.

The preferential or desiderative will of God; also called God’s will of disposition.

The directive will of God.

The discerned will of God.

The predestined / sovereign / decreed will of God.

And sometimes the permissive will of God.

Every example of His will we could show from history was predestined to occur exactly as it did.

That's just a way to protect one's theology. Give a word a bunch meanings and then equivocate on them. Theologians make up all of this different stuff so that they sidestep problematic passages. God's will is either done or it's not. There aren't fifteen different wills. God desires something or He doesn't.

 

[SBC]

Spiritually DEAD.....any part of you....body, soul, spirit, word, thought, etc. ...
that IS NOT IN STANDING WITH GOD.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

Let's examine what you said...



Seriously? You believe UNBELIEVERS are or can be "born again"?

God Bless,
SBC

They are the only ones who can be.

 

[Butch5]

Spiritually DEAD.....any part of you....body, soul, spirit, word, thought, etc. ...
that IS NOT IN STANDING WITH GOD.

God Bless,
SBC

Is that something you made up or can I find that in the Scriptures?

 

[RisenInJesus]

We must believe to be justified. Belief isn’t a requirement to be born again.

That is not true, according to the scriptures salvation includes justification and eternal life. One does not receive forgiveness or the gift of eternal life through the new birth without believing in Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph. 1:13-14

 

[Hammster]

That is not true, according to the scriptures salvation includes justification and eternal life. One does not receive forgiveness or the gift of eternal life through the new birth without believing in Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph. 1:13-14

I’m not sure what you think this demonstrates.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Paul didn't say anything about "spiritually dead." What exactly is that?

Yes He did, and so did Jesus.

If you look at the historical background you'll see that the Greeks found the idea of resurrection absurd. In the Greek mind the goal was to ascend into the heavens and be with the ultimate god. Sound familiar?

I have no idea where you are coming from with this.

Well, how exactly would someone come to Jesus? Did you go into Heaven? You're conflating two ideas. When Jesus spoke of coming to Him, He was in person on Earth. People could literally come to Him. You're using His words in a non literal sense to fit some meaning that you have in your own mind.

You are either being to obtuse for your own good or you are not and evangelical Christian. Whatever the case is - get it out in the open or we'll cut things off.

That's why I said, context.

How about this context?

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." Revelation 22:17

Because you know as well as I do that there is no Scripture that says God controls everything. It's simply a concept of Reformed theology that's imposed on God.

It depends what you mean by "controls" I suppose.
But - yes, He does control everything in that nothing happens which He does not OK to happen beforehand.

When one takes the entirety of the Bible in context it's not likely that they will come to a Reformed view.

Yes - I believe they will if they don't let their emotions get in the way.

No, they don't. That's the point I was making when I said converts are indoctrinated into the theology of the denomination they're in.

Yes they do.

Nonsense - the Reformers were in the Roman Catholic "denomination" and it didn't stop them from finding the truth in the scriptures.

We can see from the earliest Christians what the apostles taught and it wasn't Calvinism.

Calvin wasn't born until 1509. What a silly thing to say.

I don't know where you are getting this "Calvinism" business. I said nothing about Calvinism when I talked about the predestination of all that happens in God's creation.

I'm not going to play silly games here.

Unless you lay out clearly now exactly what you believe about our spiritual condition and how we change it; what it means to be dead; and what it means to be born again - we'll end this.

 

[Si_monfaith]

God can never be seen as the author of sin or evil regardless of the truth that all human choices originate in Him. Why?

If man hadn't chosen the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden, man could not know that whatever God did was evil or sin.

It was not God's will for man to possess the knowledge of good and evil. Only God can help you to not think in terms of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I’m not sure what you think this demonstrates.

It demonstrates, as do many scriptures in the New Testament, that one must believe that Jesus is the Christ to be born again, be saved, and have eternal life...

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1