Faith or Predestination

[Si_monfaith]

Matthew:
Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Romans:
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Then I myself in my mind serve the Law of God, but in my flesh the law of sin.
Romans:
And fashion not yourselves like unto this world, but be ye changed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God is.
Romans:
That ye with one mind, and with one mouth may praise God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinth:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds, that is, of the infidels, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, which is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
Ephesians:
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Philippians:
Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
1 John:
But we know that that Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind to know him, which is true, and we are in him that is true, that is, in that his Son Jesus Christ, the same is that very God, and that eternal life.
Gospel of Mary:
9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.
10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision

Without the knowledge and assurance given by God to make a choice, the human will isn't free.

God is the source of true knowledge.

If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus? Your mind theory seems to fall short for a reasonable explanation!

 

[Si_monfaith]

You are taking verses out of context. Who does Jesus give eternal life? Those that believe!

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. " Jn 10:9-10

"Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." Jn 10:25-30

How do we become Jesus' sheep? We enter through the gate (faith in Jesus.) Of course those sheep that do not belong to Jesus do not believe! They have not entered the gate. Jesus isn't telling them that they can never enter the gate in the future to become His sheep - He's rebuking them for ignoring His words yet claiming to be part of the flock of God (a common OT symbol for Israel) - indeed claiming to be leaders of the flock of God!

John 10 is also a series of analogies on sheep that Jesus uses to make various points. As with parables, because the language is figurative, it is best to take each analogy for its point that He is making and not over-extrapolate to build a doctrine off perceived implications in the text.

How do we become Jesus' sheep?
Reply:
John 10:25-26: Jesus answered, did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
Believing in order to become sheep? But Jesus says just the opposite. Sheep is just another word Jesus used for elect or those the Father has given him. This is clear in Acts 13:48 all who were appointed to eternal life believed.

Secondly if you are not certain that the elect will be saved, then you will see faith not as a gift but as a difficult hurdle to cross!

 

[InterestedApologist]

"I have a feeling you will not answer because you know that Calvinism requires God be responsible for man's fall and not man himself."

Reply: I have a feeling that though you know that Arminianism requires God be responsible for man's fall and not man himself as He went ahead to create those inspite of knowing they won't believe, you still ask this question.

Maybe that's the problem here, you assume I am Armenian, which is untrue. Is this really where we still are, that people are only Armenian or Calvinist?

Since you refuse to address my initial response to this, I will summarize just once more. The question is Did God orchestrate the fall of man, or did man fall of his own accord? This has nothing to do with the ongoing creation of human life, it is a question on the origin of sin and who is responsible for man's fall. I suspect your refusal to answer this twice now is because you know your view requires God to have not just allowed the fall, but to have orchestrated it "because it was His will and to exhibit his glory". Sound about right?

"You are putting words in my mouth".

Reply: If you don't admit that man's will can't be free without prior knowledge from God, then I need not put words.

I see no correlation between man's free will and God's foreknowledge. If I give someone a choice between two items even if I know what they will choose, it does not make make my offer of both items irrelevant, nor does it make their choice controlled by me. Ultimately, I chose to make the offer (my responsibility), and they made a choice on their own (their responsibility).

"Again, another dodge of the question"

Reply: When you hold on to the same idea of God refusing salvation to some, can you ask such a question? You don't want to admit your dodging.

I'm sorry, but I am not following this response. Do you believe God refuses salvation to some or not? It is a simple yes or no question.

"Does God's will have to be consistent with his goodness, justness, gracefulness, mercy and love or not?"

Reply: Is your concept of God consistent with his goodness, justness, gracefulness, mercy and love when He hasn't refrained from creating those whom He knew will not anyway believe?

Again, please address my previous response on this and again at the beginning of this post. My view of God is indeed consistent with the attributes I describe. I suspect yours is not and you simply don't want to own that.

 

[Phantasman]

Without the knowledge and assurance given by God to make a choice, the human will isn't free.

God is the source of true knowledge.

If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus? Your mind theory seems to fall short for a reasonable explanation!

There is no choice. It was made in Eden. The words choose and choice doesn't appear in the NT.

There is only knowledge (of truth) or ignorance of it. Both words appear throughout all Christian scriptures.

Eve, then Adam, accepted knowledge, not ignorance. It's how we came to have a spirit (conduit to truth).

Jesus came to teach spiritual truth. Unless you see it with the mind (where I explained above it is) you will not see it. Most choose to see Jesus flesh. Unless you see the spiritual Jesus, you simply follow others who are as ignorant.

The whole Gospel is based on spirit, that is a hidden mystery (as the Christian scriptures teach).

That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus?

They would, if they knew the truth. Why do people leave Christianity? Same reason.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Maybe that's the problem here, you assume I am Armenian, which is untrue. Is this really where we still are, that people are only Armenian or Calvinist?

Since you refuse to address my initial response to this, I will summarize just once more. The question is Did God orchestrate the fall of man, or did man fall of his own accord? This has nothing to do with the ongoing creation of human life, it is a question on the origin of sin and who is responsible for man's fall. I suspect your refusal to answer this twice now is because you know your view requires God to have not just allowed the fall, but to have orchestrated it "because it was His will and to exhibit his glory". Sound about right?




I see no correlation between man's free will and God's foreknowledge. If I give someone a choice between two items even if I know what they will choose, it does not make make my offer of both items irrelevant, nor does it make their choice controlled by me. Ultimately, I chose to make the offer (my responsibility), and they made a choice on their own (their responsibility).




I'm sorry, but I am not following this response. Do you believe God refuses salvation to some or not? It is a simple yes or no question.




Again, please address my previous response on this and again at the beginning of this post. My view of God is indeed consistent with the attributes I describe. I suspect yours is not and you simply don't want to own that.

"Is this really where we still are, that people are onlyArmenian or Calvinist?"

What is your position if it doesn't belong to unconditional election and conditional election? You don't need to hide, right?


"I see no correlation between man's free will and God's foreknowledge".

Knowledge required for the human will to make a choice is entirely different from God's foreknowledge.


" Ultimately, I chose to make the offer (my responsibility), and they made a choice on their own (their responsibility)".

Responsibility is absolutely insufficient to make a choice. Prior knowledge is needed by the one who makes the choice.


"Do you believe God refuses salvation to some or not?"

You also believe that God refuses salvation to some. If not state why?


"My view of God is indeed consistent with the attributes I describe".

You just state that your view of God is indeed consiste by with the attributes you describe, but you haven't stated how. You just claim that you don't believe in conditional election but haven't stated how consistent is your view.

 

[Si_monfaith]

There is no choice. It was made in Eden. The words choose and choice doesn't appear in the NT.

There is only knowledge (of truth) or ignorance of it. Both words appear throughout all Christian scriptures.

Eve, then Adam, accepted knowledge, not ignorance. It's how we came to have a spirit (conduit to truth).

Jesus came to teach spiritual truth. Unless you see it with the mind (where I explained above it is) you will not see it. Most choose to see Jesus flesh. Unless you see the spiritual Jesus, you simply follow others who are as ignorant.

The whole Gospel is based on spirit, that is a hidden mystery (as the Christian scriptures teach).

That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus?

They would, if they knew the truth. Why do people leave Christianity? Same reason.

"If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus?

They would, if they knew the truth. Why do people leave Christianity? Same reason."

If people knew the truth they would choose Jesus. So why don't all know the truth?

 

[Si_monfaith]

There is no choice. It was made in Eden. The words choose and choice doesn't appear in the NT.

There is only knowledge (of truth) or ignorance of it. Both words appear throughout all Christian scriptures.

Eve, then Adam, accepted knowledge, not ignorance. It's how we came to have a spirit (conduit to truth).

Jesus came to teach spiritual truth. Unless you see it with the mind (where I explained above it is) you will not see it. Most choose to see Jesus flesh. Unless you see the spiritual Jesus, you simply follow others who are as ignorant.

The whole Gospel is based on spirit, that is a hidden mystery (as the Christian scriptures teach).

That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus?

They would, if they knew the truth. Why do people leave Christianity? Same reason.

Mathew 13:
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Not all but only the elect are given the required knowledge in order for them to make the choice of accepting Jesus.

Without this knowledge accepting Jesus is absolutely impossible. So none can boast saying, "I accepted and so I was saved".

 

[SBC]

Conditional election claims that humans are sovereign in choosing Jesus and that faith is produced by humans.

Unconditional election (UE) says that God is sovereign and chooses who will be given to Jesus. John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. UE says that faith is a gift of God through His Son (Acts 3:16: the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all).

Disagree.

God provides His Word. Faith comes by hearing His Word. Many are called to hear His Word. Those who come and hear and believe, become the chosen, and receive the from God, the gift of Faith.

Eph 2
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 10
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Matt 22
[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Summarizing...

1. God gives ability to believe in Jesus.
2. Still many reject. Why?
3. You don't know the reason.
4. It means conditional election cannot show why all are not saved.
5. It then means God has elected some to believe in His Son.

1. Every man has the ability to believe, IN WHATEVER THEY CHOOSE.
2. WHY do you reject ANYTHING? Don't believe, don't like ?
3. I can not tell you specifically WHY some reject. You would have to ask one who rejected.
4. All are not saved, because ALL do not choose to believe His Word, thus ALL do not receive His Grace of giving the gift of Faith.
5. God does not WAIT to see, what any man WILL CHOOSE. God knows ALL things, even what a man will choose before the man chooses.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Si_monfaith]

Disagree.

God provides His Word. Faith comes by hearing His Word. Many are called to hear His Word. Those who come and hear and believe, become the chosen, and receive the from God, the gift of Faith.

Eph 2
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 10
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Matt 22
[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

God Bless,
SBC

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

So you agree that only those whom God chooses will have the gift of faith among all who hear.

 

[Si_monfaith]

1. Every man has the ability to believe, IN WHATEVER THEY CHOOSE.
2. WHY do you reject ANYTHING? Don't believe, don't like ?
3. I can not tell you specifically WHY some reject. You would have to ask one who rejected.
4. All are not saved, because ALL do not choose to believe His Word, thus ALL do not receive His Grace of giving the gift of Faith.
5. God does not WAIT to see, what any man WILL CHOOSE. God knows ALL things, even what a man will choose before the man chooses.

God Bless,
SBC

You agree that faith is a gift. God is the giver of the gift. But all do not have the gift. So God hasn't given the gift to some. That is why some don't believe in His Son Jesus.

 

[InterestedApologist]

"Is this really where we still are, that people are onlyArmenian or Calvinist?"

What is your position if it doesn't belong to unconditional election and conditional election? You don't need to hide, right?


"I see no correlation between man's free will and God's foreknowledge".

Knowledge required for the human will to make a choice is entirely different from God's foreknowledge.


" Ultimately, I chose to make the offer (my responsibility), and they made a choice on their own (their responsibility)".

Responsibility is absolutely insufficient to make a choice. Prior knowledge is needed by the one who makes the choice.


"Do you believe God refuses salvation to some or not?"

You also believe that God refuses salvation to some. If not state why?


"My view of God is indeed consistent with the attributes I describe".

You just state that your view of God is indeed consiste by with the attributes you describe, but you haven't stated how. You just claim that you don't believe in conditional election but haven't stated how consistent is your view.

I have stated how at least twice, you just refuse to address my response. Your interaction on this topic is very similar to that of every other Calvinist I have asked to defend their position, to dodge questions and avoid completely the issue of how TULIP impunes God's character.

You ask what I believe and I would respond that I believe the Bible is harmonious, not conflicting. I do not build a doctrine off of a handful of versus and ignore the others that would seem to disagree with my view as Calvinists and Armenians do. Calvinism is built on a warped view of God's sovereignty. What kind of God do Calvinists believe in? It seems they will never tell or just don't know, as you were unwilling to even answer if God is good or just. I wonder if Calvin himself was so secretive about his faith? Why the need to hide it.

 

[Phantasman]

"If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus?

They would, if they knew the truth. Why do people leave Christianity? Same reason."

If people knew the truth they would choose Jesus. So why don't all know the truth?

They see ignorance as truth. Including the many who call themselves Christians. It's a battle (of the heart in the mind for the soul). Unless you truly know yourself, truth can evade you and appear in ignorance.

The kingdom of God is where truth is. We seek it first (as Christ said).
Luke:
20 ¶ a]">[a]And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them, and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with b]">[b]observation.
21 Neither shall men say, Lo here, or lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is c]">[c]within you.

When does a Christian think they will enter kingdom. When they die in flesh?

Thomas says it more clearly:

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Unless you see the three in you (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), you will see error. We are three as well. Heart, soul, mind. The heart is our spirit, from the Father. The soul (from another) is what animates the flesh (works). The mind is where faith comes through knowledge (of Christ/truth).

Now the heart is where the spirit of love of the Father lives, the home of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinth.
13 p]">[p]And now abideth faith, hope and love, even these three: but the chiefest of these is love.

Matthew:
Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The soul is where hope (of true life) resides. To the Christian, our fleshly works become evident of our heart.

The mind is where knowledge is received from God, and where our faith grows.

The heart is what God see's.

7 a]">[a]O hypocrites, Isaiah prophesied well of you, saying,
8 This people draweth near unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with the lips, but their heart is far off from me.
9 But in vain they worship me, teaching for doctrines, men’s precepts.

Gnosis teaches the same.

"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.

Conditions are not the same as importance. Faith comes from the mind in the first words when we here Christ. We then accept the love, through understanding and in our heart. The we show our love in our soul through our works (animating the flesh).

Knowledge is the key to being saved.

The Gospel of Philip:
Faith receives, love gives. No one will be able to receive without faith. No one will be able to give without love. Because of this, in order that we may indeed receive, we believe, and in order that we may love, we give, since if one gives without love, he has no profit from what he has given. He who has received something other than the Lord is still a Hebrew.

The church fathers (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc.) were teaching the Hebrew way, and why their catholic ideology appealed to the Emporers, Kings and Lords. And why they surrounded the Gospel with the mud of the OT.

Their hearts don't want you to know this, and why they resorted to murder those following spiritual gnosis.

Troubling words? You betcha.

Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."- Thomas

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

"If man has the mind as you claim to choose Jesus why don't all choose Jesus?

They would, if they knew the truth. Why do people leave Christianity? Same reason."

If people knew the truth they would choose Jesus. So why don't all know the truth?

Firstly, faith is not the same thing as 'sight.' We have all the proof we need - but it is secondary evidence (testimonies, history, signs and wonders, prophecy, nature, etc.) as well as the general conviction by the Holy Spirit of sin. And humans are very good at finding ways to explain away or ignore secondary evidence!

Just look at the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. The rich man was sure that if Lazarus went to warn his brothers, they would be awed by the proof of the sign and repent. Yet notice Jesus' conclusion of the tale:

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Someone who justifies their sin or tries to explain away the proof in front of them isn't going to be convinced by more or 'better' proof. The pharisees showed this in action (with exceptions like Nicodemus), as when John the Baptist preached repentance, they did not turn. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, they did not repent. When Jesus was resurrected, they still did not believe - and went so far as to spread a cover story that the disciples had taken the body.

What are many of the excuses unbelievers use to not be persuaded by the many proofs available? 'The Bible is a myth' 'The Bible is unscientific' 'It's just a book of moral stories' 'The disciples were lying to gain power' - etc.

Just as there exist 'flat Earthers' today who insist that the Earth is flat and excuse all secondary evidence away as conspiracy theories or falsehoods, availability of the evidence does not guarantee that a human will receive evidence as true.

Scripture gives many reasons that people reject, rather than receive, the message:

Some prefer to do evil. (Jn 8:44, Judges 2:9)
Some fear their evil will be exposed (Jn 3:20.)
Some are stubborn and/or rebellious (Hos 4:16, Jer 5:23, Mk 16:14, Mk 3:5)
Some do not synthesize the message with other facts/evidences they may have seen or heard, and Satan snatches away what they heard so they do not think about its implications (Matt 13:19) Basically, they do not put two and two together and apply the implications of the gospel to their life.
Some simply refuse to hear or see any evidence that might conflict with their preconceived views (Ezek 12:2, Mk 6:11)

Etc.

We can see a picture of this with the idea of trusting authority figures to deliver on a promise if it involved delayed gratification. Put a bunch of kids in a room and give them each a marshmallow or piece of candy. Tell them that there is another marshmallow in their desk - but if they don't eat it, then they will get 5 more when the adults return. Many studies like this have been done. Some children wait patiently - the trust in the adults and proof of the first marshmallow enough for them to know that waiting will bring a greater reward. Yet many children just can't wait - whether they trust more candy is coming or not, they can't resist eating the marshmallow they have access to. (The kids who display the ability to delay gratification also do better in life skills later during follow-up studies.)

In a similar manner, some humans love their sin so much that they will not turn from it, and will find many ways to either excuse away or ignore the evidence of the gospel and ignore the conviction to turn from their sin.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

How do we become Jesus' sheep?
Reply:
John 10:25-26: Jesus answered, did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
Believing in order to become sheep? But Jesus says just the opposite. Sheep is just another word Jesus used for elect or those the Father has given him. This is clear in Acts 13:48 all who were appointed to eternal life believed.

Secondly, if you are not certain that the elect will be saved, then you will see faith not as a gift but as a difficult hurdle to cross!

Faith is not a gift. Salvation, by grace and through faith, is a gift. All the evidence we need for faith is a gift. The very opportunity for us to respond to the gospel in faith is a gift.

Faith itself, however, is what God requires of us (Jn 6:28-29) - not a dead work we could never achieve, but a receptive response to the work of Christ.

"For by your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…" Rom 10:9

Sheep is not another word for 'elect,' by the way. The symbology of sheep is used throughout the Old Testament for the people of Israel. Even within the sheep, there were bad sheep (Ezek 34:20-21,) and being a sheep did not guarantee salvation in all cases (Zech 11, Rom 11:7.)

Jesus makes a number of parables in Jn 10, each with different focuses and points.

When a symbol is commonly found in scripture (trees, eagles, sheep, leaven, seas, etc.) it might not always have the same exact meaning (context will generally give what is being compared, however) - nor is every prophecy or parable using a similar symbol giving the same point. That is why it is very difficult (and not recommended) to insist that a symbol means a particular concept and then build a doctrine off of that self-proclaimed interpretation.

Jesus is clear in Jn 10 that the only way to be saved is to come through the gate - Himself. Sheep outside the gate do not hold salvation - though they may once they follow the Shepherd through the gate. Gaining access to the fold another way (like hopping a fence) doesn't make one part of Jesus' sheep.

Jesus' prophecy of the two flocks becoming one is described further in Rom 11:17-24

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

 

[Marvin Knox]

Howe about we assume for the sake of argument that both Calvinists and non-Calvinists are seeking to understand and accept what scripture says, vs. implying that one group is more spiritual than another or more accepting of God’s truth.

I will agree that both Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike often times will be seeking to understand what the scriptures say. But I have also found that both sides often simply refuse to acknowledge the arguments of the other side. They both ignore what the other side presents at times and think by so doing that the other sides arguments will simply go away.

As I said - one side is as guilty of these things as the other.

I believe that, in so far as it is humanly possible, I am willing to really consider prayerfully the arguments and scriptures presented from both sides. That's why I often find myself straddling a rail in the middle of the two theologies and am thus criticized by both sides. It doesn't bother me to be in that position at all.

I do believe that "the truth is out there" and, IMO, in lies somewhere in the middle and more than slightly leaning toward the side of the Calvinists. I simply call my position the "Reformed" position. It is very close to the position held by John Calvin - even though he is generally thought to be more hard line on some of these things than he really was.

(To be clear - I think Calvin waffled around a bit on some positions at different times in his life just like I have. I think that's a good thing.)

While I have generally enjoyed your thoughtful posts - here, in the following, I see you doing much the same thing I have just talked about.
It concerns John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."

The church is also in agreement that Christ said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn 12:32

The split isn't on the inerrancy of the Bible, but how these two verses (And other verses) relate and what is mandated by them.

The first verse mandates that the Father drawing man is required to allow man to come. The second verse shows that all men are drawn/allowed to come via the death and resurrection of Christ.

The 'split' is that Calvinists will either limit the scope of Christ's death to only drawing some men, or will not treat the second verse as relating to the first and believe some further method of drawing is necessary, while others in the church treat the second verse as the gracious method by which the Father draws all men through the death and resurrection of Christ, as the Father set up the method to be.

Everyone agrees with Jesus when He said that He would draw all men to Himself. Without expounding on that idea at length, I would point out to you that one verse talks about Jesus drawing all men to Himself while the original verse talked about the Father drawing people to the Son in the context of Jesus saying that "all that the Father gives to me will come to me".

I know you have a problem with the idea of an internal, specific, or effectual call as found in Romans 8 as opposed to the general call we all agree with. The difference as I and many theologians see it is as clear and unmistakable as can be all things considered.

I agree that Jesus draws all men to Himself in the same way that there is a general or universal call presented in the scriptures and proclaimed by us in evangelism. A related concept might be when God says that He has reconciled the entire world to Himself not counting their sins against them over against justification or personal making right with God through faith.

".....God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:19

It seems to me to be "crystal clear" in what sense the Father's drawing of those who come to Jesus is presented.

He makes what way He meant it very (crystal) clear shortly after stating that truth found in John 6:44.

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:64-65

He was clearly talking about the Father giving, granting and drawing certain men to the Son in a special calling sense.

I won't pursue it in detail any more lest I say things more harshly than I want to to you.

But it seems to me that your ignoring the clear explanation as to what Jesus meant when He made the statements concerning drawing, giving, and granting by the Father is a clear case of disingenuous argument. It is, if you will forgive my saying so, no different than the dishonest theologians on both sides of the Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist dispute.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have stated how at least twice, you just refuse to address my response. Your interaction on this topic is very similar to that of every other Calvinist I have asked to defend their position, to dodge questions and avoid completely the issue of how TULIP impunes God's character.

You ask what I believe and I would respond that I believe the Bible is harmonious, not conflicting. I do not build a doctrine off of a handful of versus and ignore the others that would seem to disagree with my view as Calvinists and Armenians do. Calvinism is built on a warped view of God's sovereignty. What kind of God do Calvinists believe in? It seems they will never tell or just don't know, as you were unwilling to even answer if God is good or just. I wonder if Calvin himself was so secretive about his faith? Why the need to hide it.

"you just refuse to address my response".

Nonsense. All have been addressed. You have to state how consistent your view is to God's nature.

John 6:
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Nothing can be more clear than the above.

 

[Si_monfaith]

They see ignorance as truth. Including the many who call themselves Christians. It's a battle (of the heart in the mind for the soul). Unless you truly know yourself, truth can evade you and appear in ignorance.

The kingdom of God is where truth is. We seek it first (as Christ said).
Luke:
20 ¶ a]">[a]And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them, and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with b]">[b]observation.
21 Neither shall men say, Lo here, or lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is c]">[c]within you.

When does a Christian think they will enter kingdom. When they die in flesh?

Thomas says it more clearly:

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Unless you see the three in you (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), you will see error. We are three as well. Heart, soul, mind. The heart is our spirit, from the Father. The soul (from another) is what animates the flesh (works). The mind is where faith comes through knowledge (of Christ/truth).

Now the heart is where the spirit of love of the Father lives, the home of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinth.
13 p]">[p]And now abideth faith, hope and love, even these three: but the chiefest of these is love.

Matthew:
Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The soul is where hope (of true life) resides. To the Christian, our fleshly works become evident of our heart.

The mind is where knowledge is received from God, and where our faith grows.

The heart is what God see's.

7 a]">[a]O hypocrites, Isaiah prophesied well of you, saying,
8 This people draweth near unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with the lips, but their heart is far off from me.
9 But in vain they worship me, teaching for doctrines, men’s precepts.

Gnosis teaches the same.

"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.

Conditions are not the same as importance. Faith comes from the mind in the first words when we here Christ. We then accept the love, through understanding and in our heart. The we show our love in our soul through our works (animating the flesh).

Knowledge is the key to being saved.

The Gospel of Philip:
Faith receives, love gives. No one will be able to receive without faith. No one will be able to give without love. Because of this, in order that we may indeed receive, we believe, and in order that we may love, we give, since if one gives without love, he has no profit from what he has given. He who has received something other than the Lord is still a Hebrew.

The church fathers (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc.) were teaching the Hebrew way, and why their catholic ideology appealed to the Emporers, Kings and Lords. And why they surrounded the Gospel with the mud of the OT.

Their hearts don't want you to know this, and why they resorted to murder those following spiritual gnosis.

Troubling words? You betcha.

Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."- Thomas

"Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds".

Finding is based on human seeking but God's election.

"Unless you truly know yourself, truth can evade you and appear in ignorance."

Nonsense. Truth will evade a person if he is not elected.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Firstly, faith is not the same thing as 'sight.' We have all the proof we need - but it is secondary evidence (testimonies, history, signs and wonders, prophecy, nature, etc.) as well as the general conviction by the Holy Spirit of sin. And humans are very good at finding ways to explain away or ignore secondary evidence!

Just look at the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. The rich man was sure that if Lazarus went to warn his brothers, they would be awed by the proof of the sign and repent. Yet notice Jesus' conclusion of the tale:

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Someone who justifies their sin or tries to explain away the proof in front of them isn't going to be convinced by more or 'better' proof. The pharisees showed this in action (with exceptions like Nicodemus), as when John the Baptist preached repentance, they did not turn. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, they did not repent. When Jesus was resurrected, they still did not believe - and went so far as to spread a cover story that the disciples had taken the body.

What are many of the excuses unbelievers use to not be persuaded by the many proofs available? 'The Bible is a myth' 'The Bible is unscientific' 'It's just a book of moral stories' 'The disciples were lying to gain power' - etc.

Just as there exist 'flat Earthers' today who insist that the Earth is flat and excuse all secondary evidence away as conspiracy theories or falsehoods, availability of the evidence does not guarantee that a human will receive evidence as true.

Scripture gives many reasons that people reject, rather than receive, the message:

Some prefer to do evil. (Jn 8:44, Judges 2:9)
Some fear their evil will be exposed (Jn 3:20.)
Some are stubborn and/or rebellious (Hos 4:16, Jer 5:23, Mk 16:14, Mk 3:5)
Some do not synthesize the message with other facts/evidences they may have seen or heard, and Satan snatches away what they heard so they do not think about its implications (Matt 13:19) Basically, they do not put two and two together and apply the implications of the gospel to their life.
Some simply refuse to hear or see any evidence that might conflict with their preconceived views (Ezek 12:2, Mk 6:11)

Etc.

We can see a picture of this with the idea of trusting authority figures to deliver on a promise if it involved delayed gratification. Put a bunch of kids in a room and give them each a marshmallow or piece of candy. Tell them that there is another marshmallow in their desk - but if they don't eat it, then they will get 5 more when the adults return. Many studies like this have been done. Some children wait patiently - the trust in the adults and proof of the first marshmallow enough for them to know that waiting will bring a greater reward. Yet many children just can't wait - whether they trust more candy is coming or not, they can't resist eating the marshmallow they have access to. (The kids who display the ability to delay gratification also do better in life skills later during follow-up studies.)

In a similar manner, some humans love their sin so much that they will not turn from it, and will find many ways to either excuse away or ignore the evidence of the gospel and ignore the conviction to turn from their sin.

Are you certain that the elect will certainly accept Jesus Christ?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Firstly, faith is not the same thing as 'sight.' We have all the proof we need - but it is secondary evidence (testimonies, history, signs and wonders, prophecy, nature, etc.) as well as the general conviction by the Holy Spirit of sin. And humans are very good at finding ways to explain away or ignore secondary evidence!

Just look at the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. The rich man was sure that if Lazarus went to warn his brothers, they would be awed by the proof of the sign and repent. Yet notice Jesus' conclusion of the tale:

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Someone who justifies their sin or tries to explain away the proof in front of them isn't going to be convinced by more or 'better' proof. The pharisees showed this in action (with exceptions like Nicodemus), as when John the Baptist preached repentance, they did not turn. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, they did not repent. When Jesus was resurrected, they still did not believe - and went so far as to spread a cover story that the disciples had taken the body.

What are many of the excuses unbelievers use to not be persuaded by the many proofs available? 'The Bible is a myth' 'The Bible is unscientific' 'It's just a book of moral stories' 'The disciples were lying to gain power' - etc.

Just as there exist 'flat Earthers' today who insist that the Earth is flat and excuse all secondary evidence away as conspiracy theories or falsehoods, availability of the evidence does not guarantee that a human will receive evidence as true.

Scripture gives many reasons that people reject, rather than receive, the message:

Some prefer to do evil. (Jn 8:44, Judges 2:9)
Some fear their evil will be exposed (Jn 3:20.)
Some are stubborn and/or rebellious (Hos 4:16, Jer 5:23, Mk 16:14, Mk 3:5)
Some do not synthesize the message with other facts/evidences they may have seen or heard, and Satan snatches away what they heard so they do not think about its implications (Matt 13:19) Basically, they do not put two and two together and apply the implications of the gospel to their life.
Some simply refuse to hear or see any evidence that might conflict with their preconceived views (Ezek 12:2, Mk 6:11)

Etc.

We can see a picture of this with the idea of trusting authority figures to deliver on a promise if it involved delayed gratification. Put a bunch of kids in a room and give them each a marshmallow or piece of candy. Tell them that there is another marshmallow in their desk - but if they don't eat it, then they will get 5 more when the adults return. Many studies like this have been done. Some children wait patiently - the trust in the adults and proof of the first marshmallow enough for them to know that waiting will bring a greater reward. Yet many children just can't wait - whether they trust more candy is coming or not, they can't resist eating the marshmallow they have access to. (The kids who display the ability to delay gratification also do better in life skills later during follow-up studies.)

In a similar manner, some humans love their sin so much that they will not turn from it, and will find many ways to either excuse away or ignore the evidence of the gospel and ignore the conviction to turn from their sin.

"In a similar manner, some humans love their sin so much that they will not turn from it, and will find many ways to either excuse away or ignore the evidence of the gospel and ignore the conviction to turn from their sin."

REPLY:
So what? With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Mathew 19:26).

Stop focusing on what humans do and start focusing on what God can do.