Would you still be a Christian without the incentive of Heaven?

[mark kennedy]

Jesus called himself a shepherd, a gate, a light. Some of the most theologically important words in the Bible are figures of speech. We should not interpret them literally, because they aren't meant to be read literally.

That's in spite of the fact that the first five books of the OT and the NT are historical narrative. We dare not take redemptive history figuratively, God is either involved in humanity or he is not.

 

[thetruth0]

That's in spite of the fact that the first five books of the OT and the NT are historical narrative. We dare not take redemptive history figuratively, God is either involved in humanity or he is not.

The GOD said HIS WORD is Spirit and is life. Not literal. The author of the first 5 books of the OT is Moses, the Great Prophet, revealing it is not a Historical Narrative, it is Revelation knowledge from the GOD. in fact, the whole book from front to back is revelations

 

[mark kennedy]

If Jesus showed up in a vision today and told me that I had been "elected" to go to hell, I would still follow Him. I would go to hell praising Jesus, and I would make so much noise about it, and try to evangelize everybody there. If I did that loud enough, and long enough, the devil would kick me out of hell, and I would have to go to heaven.

I know that that is a flip answer, but really, what else could I do?

And you accused me of sermonizing . I feel you on that one though, as long as it's in my power to choose I'd choose Christ. Not for my love of heaven or my fear of hell, but because there is no other way to life. I always loved the prayer of contrition Catholics pray, not because of my love of heaven or my fear of hell, but that I offended thee. There is no other real reason for repentance other then wanting to make amends for the sin we commit against God, because we offended the God who made us.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

The GOD said HIS WORD is Spirit and is life. Not literal. The author of the first 5 books of the OT is Moses, the Great Prophet, revealing it is not a Historical Narrative, it is Revelation knowledge from the GOD. in fact, the whole book from front to back is revelations

It's also redemptive history we must remember, the exodus either happened or it didn't. The crucifixion either happened or it didn't. I either take those things literally or I would have a hard time taking them seriously. Otherwise why would the Lord's Supper be instituted on Passover?

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[thetruth0]

Yes, they li

It's also redemptive history we must remember, the exodus either happened or it didn't. The crucifixion either happened or it didn't. I either take those things literally or I would have a hard time taking them seriously.

Yes, they literally happened, the Spiritual though is the revelation behind why. If you take the WORD of GOD literally, you will have the outline, but never understand the picture of what the GOD is saying because HIS Revelations are spiritual. Therefore, they cannot be interpreted by the brain, nor understood by the brain. Knowledge is of the Spirit.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes, they li

Yes, they literally happened, the Spiritual though is the revelation behind why. If you take the WORD of GOD literally, you will have the outline, but never understand the picture of what the GOD is saying because HIS Revelations are spiritual. Therefore, they cannot be interpreted by the brain, nor understood by the brain. Knowledge is of the Spirit.

The two are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between spiritual and literal. They both happened and they are inextricably linked. The believer being born again isn't figurative, it's literal, just in a spiritual way.

 

[disciple1]

The GOD said HIS WORD is Spirit and is life. Not literal. The author of the first 5 books of the OT is Moses, the Great Prophet, revealing it is not a Historical Narrative, it is Revelation knowledge from the GOD. in fact, the whole book from front to back is revelations

John chapter 17 verse 3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jeremiah chapter 22 verse 16
He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD.

 

[thetruth0]

The two are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between spiritual and literal. They both happened and they are inextricably linked. The believer being born again isn't figurative, it's literal, just in a spiritual way.

you cannot understand the Word of GOD with your brain. If you could, then the ones that were written about which though hearing but not understanding in their hearts would have been able to understand and be converted and HE would heal them.

Knowing that the events happened comes from also knowing why. So unless you understand the Spiritual first, you cannot know the physical, you can only believe.

And belief is inferior to knowledge. Which is why i said, Knowledge is of the Spirit.

 

[thetruth0]

Jeremiah chapter 22 verse 16
He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD.

Who do you think are the needy?

 

[mark kennedy]

you cannot understand the Word of GOD with your brain. If you could, then the ones that were written about which though hearing but not understanding in their hearts would have been able to understand and be converted and HE would heal them.

Knowing that the events happened comes from also knowing why. So unless you understand the Spiritual first, you cannot know the physical, you can only believe.

And belief is inferior to knowledge. Which is why i said, Knowledge is of the Spirit.

You can understand God both intelligently and spiritually, I don't see those two ways of understanding him to be mutually exclusive. Head knowledge, heart knowledge, spiritual knowledge...they are all part of the same thing because they are all part of the same person. Repentance is at the seat of moral conscience and that is not just spiritual, it's where you live. We are to love got with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, not just our spirit. God does't want just part of you, he wants you.

 

[thetruth0]

You can understand God both intelligently and spiritually, I don't see those two ways of understanding him to be mutually exclusive. Head knowledge, heart knowledge, spiritual knowledge...they are all part of the same thing because they are all part of the same person. Repentance is at the seat of moral conscience and that is not just spiritual, it's where you live. We are to love got with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, not just our spirit.

GOD is Spirit. HE is the Supreme SPIRIT Being. Man is also Spirit. The real you is a Spirit being, inside the soul wearing the mortal body. So the knowledge of Spiritual things comes only by the Spirit. If what you are saying is true, then the secrets of the bible, the things that have been sealed by the GOD, would have been unsealed by the many many intellectuals which have studied it.

Furthermore, the enemy who the WORD does not abide in, would also have been able to understand the WORD, the Plan of Salvation.

What the GOD has sealed, no man with their brain can unseal. Only one sent as a Prophet, as a mouthpiece, who is Spiritual can unseal what the GOD has sealed because HE hears in HIS spirit from the GOD and speaks only what HE hears.

The brain has nothing to do with anything spiritual.

 

[disciple1]

Who do you think are the needy?

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[thetruth0]

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Before we continue, i need to be sure that you know that the GOD in HIS incarnate Manifestation is not the Son of Man. IF you say HE is, then im forced to ask, which man is HIS father?

 

[Ronald]

Meaning that you could only enjoy limited life with the Lord on this Earth. No eternal life, just this one.
For some people, some Christians, it seems Heaven has already started for them here. They walk so close to God everyday. They are in love. And I respect that a lot. I think these people aren't so much focussed on the reward of heaven. They love the Lord so much now, they are just happy to serve Him now in this earthly life. Their reward is now.
I'm thinking that is a healthy approach. Because if our motivation to follow the Commandments and serve the Lord, is an extrinsic reward like Heaven, we are not really motivated by love. We are motivated by what is in it for us.

Absolutely! We live in the kingdom of heaven now, benefit from God's blessings, grow spiritual fruit: peace, love, joy, kindness, goodness, patience, self control, faith and hope. Every aspect of life is better having a personal relationship with God. Every aspect of life without Jesus is empty and futile, chasing after the win.
To be honest, if I had no experiential benefits of spiritual growth and fruit as I mentioned now, no confirmation or communion with Jesus, no LIGHT, no GRACE and no promise heaven, obviously I wouldn't believe in His word or God -- so would go for the gusto and take whatever I could get; eat, drink and be marry and whatever I fancied and lusted for, I'd want. If I couldn't earn it, I'd try to take it.
And btw, without God, man left to himself is totally depraved and wicked.

 

[disciple1]

Before we continue, i need to be sure that you know that the GOD in HIS incarnate Manifestation is not the Son of Man. IF you say HE is, then im forced to ask, which man is HIS father?

Jesus is God.

Luke chapter 1 verse 35
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

[Ronald]

I think we can make the mistake of being too Heaven focussed and miss "the now." Its when "the now" gets painful and problematic, that we start dreaming of a better place. Maybe the Heaven idea was created for those having a real tough time of it here. That their suffering wont be forever.

Actually you are right. I heard a sermon once that heaven is living in the moment and not in the past or future like some do.

 

[thetruth0]

Jesus is God.

Luke chapter 1 verse 35
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Ok, we can continue. So, who then is the Son of Man?

 

[disciple1]

Ok, we can continue. So, who then is the Son of Man?

Jesus

Luke chapter 19 verse 10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

 

[thetruth0]

Jesus

Luke chapter 19 verse 10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

But who is he? This is the person who is prophesied to restore all things. So who are you looking out for? Who is thr Son of Man?

 

[derpytia]

Meaning that you could only enjoy limited life with the Lord on this Earth. No eternal life, just this one.
For some people, some Christians, it seems Heaven has already started for them here. They walk so close to God everyday. They are in love. And I respect that a lot. I think these people aren't so much focussed on the reward of heaven. They love the Lord so much now, they are just happy to serve Him now in this earthly life. Their reward is now.
I'm thinking that is a healthy approach. Because if our motivation to follow the Commandments and serve the Lord, is an extrinsic reward like Heaven, we are not really motivated by love. We are motivated by what is in it for us.

I am going to be honest and say I would really really struggle. I don't really see heaven as a reward but more like a gift to a person who has suffered so much in life. God's promise of paradise is, I think, one of His ultimate demonstrations of his love for world despite how awful we humans have turned out to be. If there was no promise of paradise in the future, considering how ugly things in my life have been, I would have a hard time believing in God's love. Moslty because I am a sinful human that needs displays and reassurances of love and affection. Also, if this life that I've lived was truly it, I don't think living it all the way to the end would be terribly appealing.

Sounds horrible but I'm trying to be honest. I will accept any statements saying that I'm a horrible human being cause that's true.