MJ and Oral Torah

[Open Heart]

https://messianic613.files.wordpres...094-the-oral-torah-and-the-messianic-jew1.pdf
The Oral Torah and the Messianic Jew

This is a great scholarly article, written on a high school, perhaps community college level. It has a lot of information in it that I haven't come across before, and I'm still digesting it. IOW KEWL STUFF!!! For example, I learned the significance of Rosh Hashanah/the month of Tishrei being connected with the constellation of Libra (the scales of justice!).

It is a quality article. It goes into the history of Oral Torah, the archaeology, etc. It examines the MJ arguments against it, and shows why they may not necessarily be sufficient. It gives many examples of times in the Scriptures where people have followed Oral Torah, both in the Tanakh, and in the NT. It delves into the possibility that the Oral Torah that Jesus used is different from the Oral Torah of today's Judaism.

One of the things that stretched me is the article's assumption that Oral Torah originates with Moshe. I of course don't believe that. For me, Oral Torah is the rulings of the Judges and their successors, the Pharisees and Rabbis, who have been granted the authority to do this from God. This article gives enough evidence to almost persuade me. I'll be thinking this over for a while, folks. Who know, I may change my mind.

 

[Lulav]

Jewish tradition is that the Oral Torah came down through Moses as many things were needed to be decided besides what was written down in Torah about how to run the Mishkan, you don't believe that?

 

[Open Heart]

Jewish tradition is that the Oral Torah came down through Moses as many things were needed to be decided besides what was written down in Torah about how to run the Mishkan, you don't believe that?

Can you give me some examples of what you mean by laws to run the Mishkan that are not in the Torah?

I think that the 613 needed to be applied (case law). Moses applied it. And he appointed seventy elders to help him. God gave those elders unbridled authority. They passed on their authority via the leaning of hands. To me, this has always been the source of Oral Torah. IOW, there are parts of Oral Torah that have their origin in case law that came to be long after Moshe. That's always been what Oral Torah has meant to me. It's a little different than what Oral Torah means to the Orthodox and to the MJ writer of this article.

He was very convincing in i.e. the obvious necessity of a Calendar in order to keep the Holy Days, despite that the Torah contains nothing about a Calendar. The Calendar would certainly have had to have existed from the very beginning.

Did you read the article? What did you think about it? How do you personally stand on Oral Torah?

 

[Lulav]

It's been awhile but I remember a discussion in my Torah Classes where we were speaking of this, there were so many things, details for the services, things like where to dump the ashes, the 'manure', housekeeping really. But there is more.

Avot 1 says: Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua, Joshua to the elders, the elders to the prophets and the prophets handed it down the men of the Great Assembly.

It is said that when Moses was on Mt Sinai he received two Torahs, one he wrote down and the oral one where G-d explained certain things to him.

 

[visionary]

Like all commentaries, oral torah has value, and should be respected as such. You may never know, what you may learn from those who went before us.

 

[Open Heart]

It's been awhile but I remember a discussion in my Torah Classes where we were speaking of this, there were so many things, details for the services, things like where to dump the ashes, the 'manure', housekeeping really. But there is more.

Avot 1 says: Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua, Joshua to the elders, the elders to the prophets and the prophets handed it down the men of the Great Assembly.

It is said that when Moses was on Mt Sinai he received two Torahs, one he wrote down and the oral one where G-d explained certain things to him.

Yes, that is the standard orthodox interpretation. Is this the interpretation taught in your MJ synagogue? It is not the interpretation I have held to, but this article has given me a lot to think about.

 

[Lulav]

Not sure, this was a Torah Group that met at my house with certain members of my congregation after Services. One member, a Doctor was deep into studying Talmud along side Torah and I remember him speaking of this. Not everyone in my congregation was a believer in keeping all of Torah, there was a small group and that's who met at my house for Torah Studies and fellowship ( I put on a huge Kosher spread)

 

[pat34lee]

Whatever you believe about the origin of the oral law, the
words were not written down until well after the NT was
completed. The rules in it continued to evolve for almost
a thousand years, during which the Jews were under heavy
persecution by the church, and that shows in the parts of
the books which were against anything gentile or Christian.

There is no reason outside the Talmud itself, or tradition, to
place Rabbis or any oral law to a time before the Babylon
exile and afterward. They formed their sect following the
example of the Babylon mystery religions.

 

[Lulav]

'their sect'?

It was oral until they became afraid that it would be lost, then it was written down.

What G-d told Adam in the Garden would be considered oral law as it wasn't written down either.

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.

 

[pat34lee]

'their sect'?

It was oral until they became afraid that it would be lost, then it was written down.

What G-d told Adam in the Garden would be considered oral law as it wasn't written down either.

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.

Yes, their sect. Rabbinic Jews were only one sect, along with Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and probably others.

Afraid of losing it because God wouldn't help keep false laws.
He kept the law through everything from Moses till then,
including evil kings, war and being conquered several times.

Until God told Moses and he wrote it down.

Or unless it gave laws in addition to the real Torah.
Or took them away.

 

[danny ski]

I'm a modern person, but I understand the reason behind the Shabbat elevator. I understand why it was conceived, I understand the controversy, but I also understand the benefits. But I would never dismiss the conversation on the subject nor the motivation. Because the people who did and do ponder it are much more pious than I and care about the Almighty's Law on a much deeper level. That's the essence of the Oral Torah to me. It's easy to dismiss it, especially by the people who can't even be bothered to keep the Written Torah, for the most part. It is silly to think that a people as old as us, with equally as old written religious text would not produce a body of work such as Talmud. And the written Torah clearly sanctioned it. What were the judges suppose to do, reinvent the wheel every couple of generations? The only surprising thing is that it took so long to produce it.

 

[Lulav]

Go Otis!

 

[ChavaK]

Go Otis!

Have you heard about the financial difficulty of Otis this year?
They've had their ups and downs.

 

[pat34lee]

What were the judges suppose to do, reinvent the wheel every couple of generations? The only surprising thing is that it took so long to produce it.

The judges or the Rabbis? Those were two separate groups until
the Rabbis essentially took over the positions. Judges were to be
chosen among the people of the towns where they lived. Anything
too hard for them wasn't to be debated, but taken to God to answer.

 

[danny ski]

The judges or the Rabbis? Those were two separate groups until
the Rabbis essentially took over the positions. Judges were to be
chosen among the people of the towns where they lived. Anything
too hard for them wasn't to be debated, but taken to God to answer.

And what difference does it make? Especially in view of our history? Somebody had to step up in a world gone mad, amid the prosecution and genocide, scattered courts, institutions and mass displacement.

 

[pat34lee]

And what difference does it make? Especially in view of our history? Somebody had to step up in a world gone mad, amid the prosecution and genocide, scattered courts, institutions and mass displacement.

If you believe the NT history, the reason for Israel being judged was for
hating Yeshua and his followers without cause.

States the Talmud (Yoma 9b): "Why was the Second Temple destroyed?
Because of sinat chinam, senseless hatred of one Jew for another."
History Crash Course #35: Destruction of the Temple

That falls squarely on the back of the Pharisees, or Rabbis. And you would
count on them to redeem the nation? Yahweh was more than capable of
doing anything that needed to be done, just as he has since the beginning.

 

[gadar perets]

States the Talmud (Yoma 9b): "Why was the Second Temple destroyed?
Because of sinat chinam, senseless hatred of one Jew for another."
History Crash Course #35: Destruction of the Temple

The article you linked to (written by a Jew) goes on to say;

What is the antidote to this problem which is so rampant in the Jewish world today? The answer is ahavat chinam, the Jews have to learn to love their fellow Jews.

There's no hope for the Jewish people until all learn how to communicate with each other, and respect each other, regardless of differences.

God has no patience for Jews fighting each other.
​

The second greatest commandment to love one's neighbor as one's self cannot be fully kept by the Jews until the Almighty removes their stony hearts and they receive the new heart and new spirit promised in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. This new heart and spirit will not come through keeping the oral or written Torah, but through receiving Messiah Yeshua (YHWH's appointed Savior of the world) as their own personal Savior and Mohel who will circumcise their stony heart (Colossians 2:11).

 

[Dave-W]

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.

Quite right. And according to what Paul said to the Roman rabbis in Acts 28, neither did he.

 

[pat34lee]

The article you linked to (written by a Jew) goes on to say;

What is the antidote to this problem which is so rampant in the Jewish world today? The answer is ahavat chinam, the Jews have to learn to love their fellow Jews.

There's no hope for the Jewish people until all learn how to communicate with each other, and respect each other, regardless of differences.

God has no patience for Jews fighting each other.
​

The second greatest commandment to love one's neighbor as one's self cannot be fully kept by the Jews until the Almighty removes their stony hearts and they receive the new heart and new spirit promised in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. This new heart and spirit will not come through keeping the oral or written Torah, but through receiving Messiah Yeshua (YHWH's appointed Savior of the world) as their own personal Savior and Mohel who will circumcise their stony heart (Colossians 2:11).

All true. What caused the huge schism between the Jews?
Yeshua. He was hated without cause.

 

[Open Heart]

Not sure, this was a Torah Group that met at my house with certain members of my congregation after Services. One member, a Doctor was deep into studying Talmud along side Torah and I remember him speaking of this. Not everyone in my congregation was a believer in keeping all of Torah, there was a small group and that's who met at my house for Torah Studies and fellowship ( I put on a huge Kosher spread)

Lulav, you are so awesome!