MJ and Oral Torah

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
No, it's not about making fences, it was about the priority.

Oral law does not (or should not, which is what he was teaching) override the written law.

I gave examples of that.

It was about changing the law in any way. Adding fences is changing
the law, because it changes the point at which you break the command.

It is like changing a no fishing sign to no trespassing. Now, if you fish there,
you break two rules instead of one.

The first fence caused Eve to sin.
Genesis 2:17
Genesis 3:3
Who could have added the fence, but Adam?
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
It was about changing the law in any way. Adding fences is changing
the law, because it changes the point at which you break the command.

It is like changing a no fishing sign to no trespassing. Now, if you fish there,
you break two rules instead of one.

The first fence caused Eve to sin.
Genesis 2:17
Genesis 3:3
Who could have added the fence, but Adam?

No it is not about changing the law, but putting precautions to guard the people from breaking it. Certain laws required death as a sentence.

Picture this. You have a beloved child and you live on a busy street. You've taught them they must stay in the yard to play and not go in the street.

One day you are playing catch with them and the ball overshoots and goes out into the street. The child goes running after it. OOpps! A car comes speeding by and .................

Now as the protector of that small person, knowing as an adult what can happen if there isn't a barrier between the child and the road, would you NOT put up a fence?

Does that change what you told that child about not going out into the road? Of course not. But under certain circumstances anyone, child or adult may trespass and have to pay the penalty.

This is not what Yeshua was upset about, not the fences, but the lack of mercy. That is what he meant by them not putting on burdens and not helping.

So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
http://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Difference of opinion here.

Yeshua was in the temple. He spent a lot of time in the temple,
but there is nothing saying he celebrated Hanukkah, and some
good reasons that he would not.
Hebrew Streams: Hanukkah and Yeshua
That website is anti MJ so it's not a good source to use in this forum.

They are looking at a different reason for why he would/wouldn't celebrate it as it being about rebellion. And it being about Jews against Gentiles.

That's not what the reason would be that it would be celebrated.

Let's go back to the Torah and the parsha, Phinias. .


Numbers 25 KJV

The same thing happened when Hellenism took over Israel.

It culminated in antiochas epiphanias dececrating the Holy Temple.

Men stood up to them and this was the rebellion, not Jews against Gentiles that that website tries to make it out.

It was in actuality the Jews fighting against HEATHENS. And in particular one heathen who thought he was G-D!

The zeal of the Maccabees was akin to that of Phinias or Pinchas was, it was to save the people from heathenism.

The Temple was taken back, cleansed and the HOly Menorah which represents the Spirits of G-d was relit.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
No it is not about changing the law, but putting precautions to guard the people from breaking it. Certain laws required death as a sentence.

Picture this. You have a beloved child and you live on a busy street. You've taught them they must stay in the yard to play and not go in the street.

One day you are playing catch with them and the ball overshoots and goes out into the street. The child goes running after it. OOpps! A car comes speeding by and .................

Now as the protector of that small person, knowing as an adult what can happen if there isn't a barrier between the child and the road, would you NOT put up a fence?

That is the difference between children and adults.
Adults are expected to follow the rules.
If not, they face the consequences, like being struck
dead for touching the ark when it almost tipped.
Even if it seems arbitrary or harsh to our eyes.
Fences change whose rules we are following.
And they assume God's rule isn't good enough.
Our rules can be flawed. God's are perfect, correct?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,491
761
✟120,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Before I pass this, I'd like to know what makes you think
Hebrew Streams is anti-MJ? I don't see it.
The name Hebrew Streams sounds more akin to Hebrew Christianity than Messianic Judaism.

The Title of this thread is MJ and Oral Torah which is part and parcel of this Messianic Judaism forum (not a Hebrew Roots of Christianity forum). In a similar manner some Messianic Jews may view Galatians 5:1-6 as anti-MJ depending on their interpretation as it relates to their own Jewish heritage, upbringing and understanding of Messianic Judaism. The Messianic Judaism Movement of 60s & 70s was initiated by Jewish Believers in Jesus that were referred to as "Hebrew Christians" with many attending Christian denominational churches (e.g. Baptist) prior to the 70s.

Today, Messianic Judaism adheres to many of the traditions of Rabbinic Judaism NOT the traditions of Christianity such as Easter and Christmas. So, would it make sense for Messianic Jews/Judaism (MJs) to NOT observe/celebrate Hanukkah or to still say Jesus instead of Yeshua or think that Yeshua didn't observe/celebrate Hanukkah?
- Yeshua celebrated Hanukkah, yet that was not a commandment, it was a tradition. It did not take away from G-ds law.
- One of the greatest misunderstood passages about eating with unwashed hands is another example. It was never about food because those present there only called what G-d said was clean, 'food'. It was about following tradition.
- There's many more, but I think you may get the jist. :)

This shouldn't be news to a seasoned member like yourself ... is it even necessary that Lulav reply?
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,039
✟575,142.44
Faith
Messianic
No it is not about changing the law, but putting precautions to guard the people from breaking it. Certain laws required death as a sentence.

Picture this. You have a beloved child and you live on a busy street. You've taught them they must stay in the yard to play and not go in the street.

One day you are playing catch with them and the ball overshoots and goes out into the street. The child goes running after it. OOpps! A car comes speeding by and .................

Now as the protector of that small person, knowing as an adult what can happen if there isn't a barrier between the child and the road, would you NOT put up a fence?

Does that change what you told that child about not going out into the road? Of course not. But under certain circumstances anyone, child or adult may trespass and have to pay the penalty.

This is not what Yeshua was upset about, not the fences, but the lack of mercy. That is what he meant by them not putting on burdens and not helping.

So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Exactly.. what they were doing was putting the child on a chain to make sure it never went near the street.... it was a burden... rather than helpful.
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
I said fence, not chain. ;)

We do this to ourselves to day even knowing the negative circumstances of doing certain thing so we put up our own barriers. This can be seen in body language, being a neighbor, being tempted by all sorts of things.

They are like safeguards and the shepherds job was to watch over the stupid sheep so they didn't go astray
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The name Hebrew Streams sounds more akin to Hebrew Christianity than Messianic Judaism.

This shouldn't be news to a seasoned member like yourself ... is it even necessary that Lulav reply?

From your answer, it doesn't seem that you read anything
at that site. I have read several of the articles there, and
didn't see anything anti-MJ. Also, MJ stands apart from
Rabbinic Judaism. Some follow the traditions, others don't.

I assume Lulav has read it and seen something there, or she
wouldn't have made the claim.

Now, back to your last question. What do you think?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
It was about changing the law in any way. Adding fences is changing
the law, because it changes the point at which you break the command.

It is like changing a no fishing sign to no trespassing. Now, if you fish there,
you break two rules instead of one.

The first fence caused Eve to sin.
Genesis 2:17
Genesis 3:3
Who could have added the fence, but Adam?

If it changes the law then yes, its not good, that is what Yeshua was teaching against. But if it's protecting the law from violation, how is that not good and merciful?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
If it changes the law then yes, its not good, that is what Yeshua was teaching against. But if it's protecting the law from violation, how is that not good and merciful?

I just gave two reasons. Shouldn't we think Yahweh was
smart enough to place the boundaries exactly where he
wanted them to be?

What happens when the fence becomes the law, and more
fences are added to protect it?

What about Eve?
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
That is the difference between children and adults.
Adults are expected to follow the rules.
If not, they face the consequences, like being struck
dead for touching the ark when it almost tipped.
Even if it seems arbitrary or harsh to our eyes.
Fences change whose rules we are following.
And they assume God's rule isn't good enough.
Our rules can be flawed. God's are perfect, correct?

And children need to be given boundaries, else they could die. I see it as the same thing. HaShem is our Father but he also appointed men on earth to shepherd his flock, to keep them from dying. What good would a people be that crossed the line and died out?

Anyway I don't see fences change whose rules are being followed. Now I don't agree with all of them, some are excessive and some take of the spotlight of the law itself because there are too many fences.

For instance some Rabbi's rule that you need to use a magnifier or light box to examine salad leaves for insects.

These things were not available when Torah was given, neither were having dishwashers let alone two! (I don't even have one currently), or two refrigerators to separate meat and dairy.
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
I just gave two reasons. Shouldn't we think Yahweh was
smart enough to place the boundaries exactly where he
wanted them to be?

What happens when the fence becomes the law, and more
fences are added to protect it?

What about Eve?
First, I do believe he knew we weren't idiots and not everything is explained in minuit detail. You're not supposed to work on Shabbat, so what constitutes work?
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Before I pass this, I'd like to know what makes you think
Hebrew Streams is anti-MJ? I don't see it.


I'll just quote a few things that popped out to me.

His premise for his thesis is this:

His non-observance wasn't because it was a Jewish holiday, but because it was contrary to his mission and message of redeeming people

Which I don't agree with that was why (in the authors mind) he wouldn't have celebrated Hanukkah with his people. He surely celebrated Purim as it also was a Jewish tradition which without it there would be no Messiah because there would be no Jewish people. Survival.


According to Josephus there were twelve huge Menorrah there in the courtyard that were lit for this celebration, it would have been very hard to ignore the occasion. Hanukkah was about being saved from the heathens and their ungodliness and profaning the Temple of G-d. .

He says that "The Hebrew Bible does not mention the Feast of Hanukkah. "

Of course not, it is inter-testimonial, so of course it wouldn't be mentioned.

I don't want to crituqiue his whole article but here is an example that struck me to post was I did before about this site.

"Today, within the Hebrew Roots or Messianic Judaism movements we see efforts to purge Yeshua's congregation of hametz. That is, they reject Christendom's plethora of unbiblical and often anti-Jewish customs, celebrations, and theology....Instead, they passionately embrace everything Jewish — whether or not the Jewish elements are biblical or if they validate true faith in the God of Scripture and the messiahship of Yeshua. Of course, around Christmas they especially assert "Jewish" imagery as an alternative."

Some of what he says I agree with but he is targeting HR and MJs in that article.


Antiochus ordered Torah scrolls torn and burned, and outlawed the practice of circumcision and any form of Judaism. Jews who disobeyed were executed by sword or burned alive.

How could Yeshua not celebrate this with his people?

He came to return the people back to Torah, back to G-d, back to Holiness. This guy Paul Sumner sees things from a very Gentile POV. I looked and he mentioned nothing of Pinchas, Phineas, who G-d rewarded through all his generations for his righteous act, yet this guy says things like:

"Yeshua was not an armed Maccabean activist who filled the Jerusalem Temple with the divine flame of revolution."


"In fact, Yeshua's character and teaching opposed it. His enemies knew that and they wanted to stone him."​
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
First, I do believe he knew we weren't idiots and not everything is explained in minuit detail. You're not supposed to work on Shabbat, so what constitutes work?

Work constitutes work. I don't believe it is exactly
the same for everyone. What if I'm a proofreader?
Does that mean I can't read on the Sabbath?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Which I don't agree with that was why (in the authors mind) he wouldn't have celebrated Hanukkah with his people. He surely celebrated Purim as it also was a Jewish tradition which without it there would be no Messiah because there would be no Jewish people. Survival.

I agree with him totally, which is also why Maccabees isn't scripture.
It is a story of a man-made rebellion against Yahweh, as well as against
their oppressors. Esther was very similar, and I believe not scripture.
Neither was about Yahweh or his plans, or his redemption. They are
about the bravery of a few who fought or did something heroic.


"Today, within the Hebrew Roots or Messianic Judaism movements we see efforts to purge Yeshua's congregation of hametz. That is, they reject Christendom's plethora of unbiblical and often anti-Jewish customs, celebrations, and theology....Instead, they passionately embrace everything Jewish — whether or not the Jewish elements are biblical or if they validate true faith in the God of Scripture and the messiahship of Yeshua. Of course, around Christmas they especially assert "Jewish" imagery as an alternative."

Some of what he says I agree with but he is targeting HR and MJs in that article.​


It wouldn't make sense to mention Catholics, Pentecostals or Baptists.
They don't make a habit of copying Rabbinic traditions. Not everyone
makes a separate group of Messianic Gentiles. I usually stick to either
believer or Messianic, as neither Jew nor Gentile actually fit most of us.

He came to return the people back to Torah, back to G-d, back to Holiness. This guy Paul Sumner sees things from a very Gentile POV. I looked and he mentioned nothing of Pinchas, Phineas, who G-d rewarded through all his generations for his righteous act, yet this guy says things like:

"Yeshua was not an armed Maccabean activist who filled the Jerusalem Temple with the divine flame of revolution."

"In fact, Yeshua's character and teaching opposed it. His enemies knew that and they wanted to stone him."

I think he sees it from a Hebraic viewpoint. The way the apostles would
have seen it. When Yahweh sent a conqueror to punish Israel, who
freed them when it was time? It wasn't just for anyone to jump in and
try to change things.

The people didn't repent and turn to Yahweh. A few got mad and went
Rambo. Nice story, just not biblical.

Phinehas was one of the judges commanded by Moses to kill those who
had joined Moab and turned against Yahweh. Moses in turn, had been
commanded by Yahweh. Who told the Maccabees or Esther?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
I agree with him totally, which is also why Maccabees isn't scripture.

It is included in the cannon of some bibles.
It is a story of a man-made rebellion against Yahweh, as well as against their oppressors.

Esther was very similar, and I believe not scripture.
It tells a tale from the Jews in exile and how Amalek continues to try and destroy G-ds chosen people. As I said if it hadn't been for Esther and her position in the Kingdom Haman's evil genocidal plot would not have been foiled and all the Jews in the kingdom would have died.

Result? The Line of Messiah destroyed, HaSatan wins, he stops Genesis 3:15 from becoming a reality. I'd say it belongs there and most certainly should be celebrated by ALL true believers.

Neither was about Yahweh or his plans, or his redemption. They are about the bravery of a few who fought or did something heroic.

I beg to differ, see above, it's not about doing something 'heroic' it's about doing something righteous, even if by a few.

I think he sees it from a Hebraic viewpoint. The way the apostles would have seen it. When Yahweh sent a conqueror to punish Israel, who freed them when it was time? It wasn't just for anyone to jump in and try to change things.
Not sure what you are referring to here, so can't comment.
 
Upvote 0

Lulav

Y'shua is His Name
Aug 24, 2007
34,141
7,243
✟494,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Phinehas was one of the judges commanded by Moses to kill those who had joined Moab and turned against Yahweh. Moses in turn, had been commanded by Yahweh. Who told the Maccabees or Esther?

I think you should reread that parsha.

Phinehas was the grandson of Aaron, the great grandnephew of Moses, a Priest.

1 And Israel abode in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, and the people began to commit harlotry with the daughters of Moab. 2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods; and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.3 And Israel joined himself unto the Baal of Peor; and the anger of the L-RD was kindled against Israel.

4
And the L-RD said unto Moses: 'Take all the chiefs of the people, and hang them up unto the L-RD in face of the sun, that the fierce anger of the L-RD may turn away from Israel.'

5
And Moses said unto the judges of Israel: 'Slay ye every one his men that have joined themselves unto the Baal of Peor.

'6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, while they were weeping at the door of the tent of meeting.

7
And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand. 8 And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. 9 And those that died by the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10 And the L-RD spoke unto Moses, saying:
11 'Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned My wrath away from the children of Israel, in that he was very jealous for My sake among them, so that I consumed not the children of Israel in My jealousy. 12 Wherefore say: Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace; 13 and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.'

G-d knew his heart, he wasn't told by Moses to do this. The L-RD made a covenant with him , one that many don't even know about or recognize because of his zeal for the L-RD. It was done without being told to.


Even King David extols his initiative when Moses didn't know what to do.

Psalms 106
21 They forgot God their saviour, who had done great things in Egypt;22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham, terrible things by the Red Sea.
23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen stood before Him in the breach,
to turn back His wrath, lest He should destroy them.
24 Moreover, they scorned the desirable land, they believed not His word;25 And they murmured in their tents, they hearkened not unto the voice of the L-RD.
26 Therefore He swore concerning them, that He would overthrow them in the wilderness;27 And that He would cast out their seed among the nations, and scatter them in the lands.
28 They joined themselves also unto Baal of Peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.29 Thus they provoked Him with their doings, and the plague broke in upon them.

30 Then stood up Phinehas, and wrought judgment, and so the plague was stayed.
31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness, unto all generations for ever.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Where in Torah is work defined?

It is never defined, as most things aren't, in the Torah.
It is described several times, and is the same as today.
Physical labor that we do to keep alive and to feed
ourselves and our families.

One day per week, we are to leave everything to him.
 
Upvote 0