chevyontheriver

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You did all that typing and didn't say a thing. You haven't showed anything to prove your point of view. You might as well had just said "nuh uh". Like I said before you keep dodging the question where did I make my mistake? Enlighten me please.
You made your mistake by not using actual official sources for your understanding of what purgatory is. You therefore created a straw man purgatory and knocked it down, thinking somehow you were actually successful in what you were really trying to do. You can use all the Scripture you want, and even if you apply it correctly you won't prove what you want to if you just attack a straw man. Are you enlightened yet?
 
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PeaceB

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You are incorrect brother. Paul is saying that NOW we are RECONCILED past tense it has already happened. Then he goes on to say that we are are holy and without blemish in the present tense if we stay in our faith in Jesus and adhere to the gospels. I never said we are still saved if we renounce our faith.

“yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭ASV‬‬
No. St. Paul stated "yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death". This refers to our Lord's saving work on the cross, which most certainly is past tense and complete. But the application of the merits earned by our Lords saving work on the cross are not past tense. The application is in the past, in the present, and/or in the future, depending on each individual. Were this not so you would have to say that a man is personally reconciled to God even before that man has put his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus. What you are arguing leads to absurd results if you take the arguments to their logical conclusion.
 
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PeaceB

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When we die and we stand before God and He asks us why should I let you into heaven what will you say? Will you say because I paid for my sins in purgatory or will you say because Jesus gave His life to pay for my sins?
Your primary mistake is that you think our Lord Jesus died to spare you from all punishment. Our blessed Lord died to save us from eternal damnation, but he did not suffer so that you could lead an easy life and never face a single punishment or other consequence for the sins that you commit.

The Lord disciplines the people he loves. The only thing up for legitimate debate is when.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You made your mistake by not using actual official sources for your understanding of what purgatory is. You therefore created a straw man purgatory and knocked it down, thinking somehow you were actually successful in what you were really trying to do. You can use all the Scripture you want, and even if you apply it correctly you won't prove what you want to if you just attack a straw man. Are you enlightened yet?

What is incorrect about my understanding of purgatory? You seem to keep avoiding that question.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No. St. Paul stated "yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death". This refers to our Lord's saving work on the cross, which most certainly is past tense and complete. But the application of the merits earned by our Lords saving work on the cross are not past tense. The application is in the past, in the present, and/or in the future, depending on each individual. Were this not so you would have to say that a man is personally reconciled to God even before that man has put his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus. What you are arguing leads to absurd results if you take the arguments to their logical conclusion.

Ok let's back up a few verses and examine the context of what Paul said previously in the chapter.

“giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:12-14‬ ‭ASV‬‬

(Again past tense) God delivered us out of the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love (now present tense) in whom we HAVE our redemption, the forgiveness of our sin.

“and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens. And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:20-22‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Notice that verse 21 and 22 are one sentence

And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:”

Paul is teaching to the Colossians saying You were alienated yet now hath He reconciled meaning they were reconciled to present them holy and without blemish. The same applies to us.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your primary mistake is that you think our Lord Jesus died to spare you from all punishment. Our blessed Lord died to save us from eternal damnation, but he did not suffer so that you could lead an easy life and never face a single punishment or other consequence for the sins that you commit.

The Lord disciplines the people he loves. The only thing up for legitimate debate is when.

The wages of sin is death so if Jesus didn't pay for all our sins we are still condemned to eternal damnation because we are not worthy to pay for a single sin ourselves. God requires a perfect sacrifice. We are not a perfect sacrifice. Nowhere does the bible say that any sins remain for those who accept Jesus as their savior.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your primary mistake is that you think our Lord Jesus died to spare you from all punishment. Our blessed Lord died to save us from eternal damnation, but he did not suffer so that you could lead an easy life and never face a single punishment or other consequence for the sins that you commit.

The Lord disciplines the people he loves. The only thing up for legitimate debate is when.

Here's more examples

“For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:6-15‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Verse 9 but ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Present tense.

Verse 15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption. Past tense

“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Ye were sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Past tense.

What you are saying is that these things haven't taken place. You are saying that we will be reconciled after death in purgatory. That is not what Paul is saying.
 
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chevyontheriver

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What is incorrect about my understanding of purgatory? You seem to keep avoiding that question.
Maybe we're getting somewhere now. Maybe not. At first you were so convinced in the Scriptures you quoted making some sort of invincible argument against purgatory. The problem wasn't the Scriptures. It was the straw man purgatory. I tried to get you to go to the sources on what purgatory is, rather than what you got by osmosis from other Protestants who also reject the idea. I suggested you go to the dogmatic sources but you seem unable to do that. So I'll give you a link for that, which you can follow to your heart's content.
Purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church :: Catholic News Agency

Also a link that makes it easier to see how a Protestant might be unable to accept purgatory because they think it's about a way of salvation outside of God's grace and the saving work of Jesus, which of course is not the case at all.
Explaining Purgatory to Protestants
 
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BNR32FAN

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Maybe we're getting somewhere now. Maybe not. At first you were so convinced in the Scriptures you quoted making some sort of invincible argument against purgatory. The problem wasn't the Scriptures. It was the straw man purgatory. I tried to get you to go to the sources on what purgatory is, rather than what you got by osmosis from other Protestants who also reject the idea. I suggested you go to the dogmatic sources but you seem unable to do that. So I'll give you a link for that, which you can follow to your heart's content.
Purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church :: Catholic News Agency

Also a link that makes it easier to see how a Protestant might be unable to accept purgatory because they think it's about a way of salvation outside of God's grace and the saving work of Jesus, which of course is not the case at all.
Explaining Purgatory to Protestants

I've spoken to numerous catholics about purgatory. I attend a Filipino church and 90% of our congregation were catholic. I have studied the catholic teachings of purgatory and I'm not going to waste my time reading a bunch of nonsense. Have a blessed day.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I've spoken to numerous catholics about purgatory. I attend a Filipino church and 90% of our congregation were catholic. I have studied the catholic teachings of purgatory and I'm not going to waste my time reading a bunch of nonsense. Have a blessed day.
There you go. Keep your straw man. Don't expect me to be convinced of a thing you write though.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There you go. Keep your straw man. Don't expect me to be convinced of a thing you write though.

No I can't convince you of anything. You've already made up your mind regardless of what I say. I've made my point and I let the scriptures say what is the truth. I will pray for you brother that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth whether it be what I believe or what catholics believe.
 
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chevyontheriver

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No I can't convince you of anything. You've already made up your mind regardless of what I say. I've made my point and I let the scriptures say what is the truth. I will pray for you brother that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth whether it be what I believe or what catholics believe.
Again, it's not the Scriptures but it's your straw man. Scripture is true but your use of it was not apropos of purgatory.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Again, it's not the Scriptures but it's your straw man. Scripture is true but your use of it was not apropos of purgatory.

I know it's not in the scriptures the first mention of purgatory in Christian writings was between 1160AD-1180AD. Pretty close to the same time the inquisitions started in 1184AD. For the next 724 years the "oral traditions" were passed down thru men who tortured and murdered nonbelievers and anyone who opposed the catholic teachings. Also not in the scriptures.
 
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PeaceB

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The wages of sin is death so if Jesus didn't pay for all our sins we are still condemned to eternal damnation because we are not worthy to pay for a single sin ourselves. God requires a perfect sacrifice. We are not a perfect sacrifice. Nowhere does the bible say that any sins remain for those who accept Jesus as their savior.
You are just repeating yourself. I already wrote that our blessed Lord suffered to save us from eternal damnation. Purgatory has nothing to do with saving people from eternal damnation. It is where satisfaction is made for the temporal punishment that remains for sins. Again, you seem to think that our blessed Lord suffered to save us from all punishment, but Scripture does not teach that. Scripture teaches that our blessed Lord suffered to save us from eternal damnation, but also that "the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” (Heb. 12:6)

Here's more examples

“For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:6-15‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Verse 9 but ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Present tense.

Verse 15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption. Past tense

“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Ye were sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Past tense.

What you are saying is that these things haven't taken place. You are saying that we will be reconciled after death in purgatory. That is not what Paul is saying.
You can have the last word on it. I do not find your arguments persuasive, but I do not feel like spending additional time to refute them. We will simply rehash arguments that have already been made in this forum numerous times already, and the debate will go on endlessly.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Maybe we're getting somewhere now. Maybe not. At first you were so convinced in the Scriptures you quoted making some sort of invincible argument against purgatory. The problem wasn't the Scriptures. It was the straw man purgatory. I tried to get you to go to the sources on what purgatory is, rather than what you got by osmosis from other Protestants who also reject the idea. I suggested you go to the dogmatic sources but you seem unable to do that. So I'll give you a link for that, which you can follow to your heart's content.
Purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church :: Catholic News Agency

Also a link that makes it easier to see how a Protestant might be unable to accept purgatory because they think it's about a way of salvation outside of God's grace and the saving work of Jesus, which of course is not the case at all.
Explaining Purgatory to Protestants

In reply to your first link

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Purgatory:"


1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

Notice the dates that all these councils took place. Between 1336AD-1563AD. During the most controversial time of the catholic church. Right in the middle of the inquisitions like I stated before. These are the corrupted "oral traditions" I mentioned in my first post when I explained how the catholic oral traditions were corrupted. This is when "papal infallibility" and the "magisterium infallibility" went out the window. Jesus warned us to beware of false prophets who are really viscous wolves in disguise. He said you can identify them by their actions. Matthew 7:15-20. The actions of these men are evidence of their faith. Like I said before I don't see this type of behavior in the catholic church today but they still hold to the unbiblical teachings of these men who sought to force their teachings upon everyone instead of inspiring them as Jesus intended. The catholic church tried to justify their actions during the Spanish inquisitions by saying that Jews were pretending to be catholic but practicing Judism in secret. Now why do you suppose they were pretending to be catholic and practicing Judism in secret? Because they didn't want to be tortured or killed that's why. Jesus and the apostles never forced anyone to become Christians because you can't force someone to become a Christian. As Christians we willingly give our love to God. Love cannot be taken by force it is a gift given freely much like the grace God has given to us because of His love for us.

Next you can see that these men are taking scriptures out of context like 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7. This is the first time I've seen a catholic try to use 1 Peter 1:7 as proof of purgatory because that is way out of the context of what Peter is talking about. It seems like any time there is a fire mentioned in the bible catholics say "oh that is proof of purgatory".

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:11-15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

When you read 11-15 it surely looks like Paul could be talking about purgatory. But if you back up and read verses 1-10 and examine the context you can see that he is talking about the Corinthians arguing about some of them being followers of Paul and some are followers of Apollos. Paul is using this parable to explain how both of them are working toward the same goal and both of them will be rewarded in heaven according to their works.

“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

In every single case of a parable being used in the bible it is always used to support the topic that is being discussed. You don't talk about one subject then give a parable about a completely different subject. That wouldn't make any sense at all and would only confuse the person you are trying to teach. You can clearly see that in verses 1-10 Paul isn't talking about forgiveness of sin or salvation or purification of any kind. Paul is not teaching about purgatory.

Now let's examine 1 Peter 1:7 because that is so far off that catholics don't even use that one as evidence of purgatory anymore.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:3-8‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Here Peter is teaching us that our salvation awaits us in heaven but we must endure many trials here on earth to prove that our faith in God can endure. There's nothing in this verse that teaches purgatory. The fire that is referenced in this verse is referring to trials we endure in this world. I can see why they don't use this verse as evidence of purgatory anymore because it is easy to see that purgatory is not being discussed. Notice that in every case when the catholic church mentions scriptures that are evidence of purgatory it's always a single sentence. Never a chapter or group of sentences.

Next is Matthew 12:32

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Matthew 12:32; Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

In this reference the catholic church is making an assumption that contradicts what Jesus actually said. They claim that because Jesus said you will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come that this implies that there is forgiveness in the world to come. But that is not what Jesus said that is an assumption made by the catholic church. There is absolutely nothing in the bible to support this assumption. We cannot base doctrines on assumptions that's how mistakes are made and how people are misled from the truth. Furthermore it is not necessary to make such an assumption because it is irrelevant to our salvation.

Ok next let's take a look at another catholic claim that is not backed by the scriptures.

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

Nowhere in the bible does it teach this. It never mentions a difference between grave sin and venial sin and never mentions temporal punishment. I refuse to follow the teachings of men who committed horrible atrocities against humanity that are not supported by the scriptures. These teachings are not necessary for salvation. We should rely on the scriptures and Holy Spirit to guide us to what is necessary for salvation otherwise we are susceptible to false teachings which can lead us away from the truth.
 
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We are washed clean, and sanctified, in the name of Jesus our savior. I see no need for purgatory, nor see any biblical support for it. God does chastise us, and our faith is purified daily, but it leads us to repentance not to purgatory.
 
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swedenborg says that even the angels have some flaws that they have to work on and that when we die we might have to work on becoming better as well, which makes sense if you think that God heals us rather than magically takes away all our flaws in a moment which would be to distort and interfere with our will.

though there is a removing of our outer will when we die, which is the part of our will that is subject to corruption and that outside forces can manipulate ( such as a person threatening punishments to you if you don't obey) . we can still be coerced by other souls but we have to willfully trust them and become like they are. in general being coerced or manipulated by other souls is a sign that they are evil. but a person might be so foolish or darkened that they trust them and reject good souls.

so basically we should always be trying to be as near to God as we can so he can heal us of all our sins, because we have to work through everything we become. i'm sure at some point we won't have any sin left, that will be a relief. and who knows if some of our sins are due to some kind of bodily malfunction which would be considered to be part of the outer will.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I know it's not in the scriptures the first mention of purgatory in Christian writings was between 1160AD-1180AD. Pretty close to the same time the inquisitions started in 1184AD. For the next 724 years the "oral traditions" were passed down thru men who tortured and murdered nonbelievers and anyone who opposed the catholic teachings. Also not in the scriptures.
Even your fellow naysayers will claim pope Gregory in 600 AD spoke of purgatory. Again, you have constructed a straw man. So be it. You like your straw man. I'm done.
 
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swedenborg says that even the angels have some flaws that they have to work on and that when we die we might have to work on becoming better as well, which makes sense if you think that God heals us rather than magically takes away all our flaws in a moment which would be to distort and interfere with our will.

though there is a removing of our outer will when we die, which is the part of our will that is subject to corruption and that outside forces can manipulate ( such as a person threatening punishments to you if you don't obey) . we can still be coerced by other souls but we have to willfully trust them and become like they are. in general being coerced or manipulated by other souls is a sign that they are evil. but a person might be so foolish or darkened that they trust them and reject good souls.

so basically we should always be trying to be as near to God as we can so he can heal us of all our sins, because we have to work through everything we become. i'm sure at some point we won't have any sin left, that will be a relief. and who knows if some of our sins are due to some kind of bodily malfunction which would be considered to be part of the outer will.

The bible does teach that our flesh causes us to sin.
 
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