Are babies unrighteousness?

[RDKirk]

I don't believe that. I think you're born "into" sin. Not born a sinner. Do you have scripture that says that?

I just gave you a verse that said precisely that, and your response was "I don't believe that."

 

[RDKirk]

It means what it says, there are no God seekers. Everyone, everyone, is conceived in sin, with a sin nature. It is not hyperbole, there is no reason to think it is.

As it is written:

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[chilehed]

romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

That's a quote from Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, 53 and 140, and Isaiah 59. All of these passages specifically refer to those who are evil, boastful, foolish, greedy, violent, and wicked: the violent devise evil in their hearts, no fool turns to God, the greedy spurn God, no fool is righteous, etc., etc.

Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, and 140 contrast these evildoers with the righteous; so there ARE those who are righteous, those who do not devise evil in their hearts, who do turn to God, etc. etc.

 

[RDKirk]

I have found not one verse in the Bible that support an age of accountability. Moreover, following your logic, Christians should be the greatest supporters of abortion, since it is the greatest Heaven filling method. That, of course, is complete nonsense.

Speaking of an "age" is incorrect. There is certainly multiple scripture indicating that God takes knowledge into account in His judgment, so what we can say in favor of infants is that they are for some people of time completely ignorant.

 

[devin553344]

As it is written:

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

He's not saying everyone is sinful at birth, just that he sees that for himself?

 

[RDKirk]

I may disagree here but I do get the reference and meaning of what Paul is saying to the attendees. If you read the Bible from cover to cover, God seems to be quick to blood shed and anger. Take the eating of the apple for example or the mass world flood. There seem to be action before forgiveness.

No, you didn't read it cover to cover, you stopped at Malachi.

 

[RDKirk]

He's not saying everyone is sinful at birth, just that he sees that for himself?

Nope. If you're going to take that viewpoint, then none of the Psalms are applicable to anyone other than the original Psalmist.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[devin553344]

Nope. If you're going to take that viewpoint, then none of the Psalms are applicable to anyone other than the original Psalmist.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Well, I don't feel I was sinful from my conception, do you? If you do then maybe there is a reason for that, but I don't know what it is?

[edit] And then there's conflicting scripture about he who is without the law is sinless. I think You'll see what you feel is right for you personally. And maybe you feel you were sinful at conception?

For instance, maybe your criminally insane from birth? But maybe not everyone is?

 

[RDKirk]

There is a conflation in this thread of several things that are not the same, different concepts.

"Righteousness" is imputed by God through faith. Nobody has his own inherent righteousness. Nobody is born righteous. Nobody becomes righteous by actions of his own devising. Righteousness is a pronouncement by God for the reason that He chooses.

No place in scripture does it suggest that infants are righteous. No place does God declare them so. What scripture does say about infants is not particularly promising in that aspect at all, but we all want to think that infants are not condemned.

The only "out" I see in scripture is that God's judgment is tempered on what an individual knows of Him--there are several scriptures on that aspect. And so because Jesus says, "If you were blind you would have no sin," then we can have some expectation of salvation for infants.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, I don't feel I was sinful from my conception, do you? If you do then maybe there is a reason for that, but I don't know what it is?

The moment my children were capable of self-willed action, that action was contrary to my will.

 

[ReasonwithMe]

One must asks, given the fact we are strangers to each other, how do you claim with certainty that I haven't? Do you have limitless withheld information that mere humans don't have?

 

[ReasonwithMe]

Do you know from which chapter I'm referring to or do you automatically assume something without having a foundation from with you disagree?

 

[devin553344]

The moment my children were capable of self-willed action, that action was contrary to my will.

I would have to add to that, that the Psalmist seems to be blaming his conception for his sin, something I personally cannot afford in my salvation with God. He'll have to feel alone in that aspect then. BTW, sorry your children do against your will, that's sad to see.

[edit] But then God never gave me any memories of my conception? Not that I would have a memory then cause I wouldn't so God would have to tell me I was sinful from conception, but I'm not sure that's what the psalmist was saying? I don't believe embryos sin! A cell dividing in half is sin? But then maybe DNA, Jesus the Christ was born of the holy ghost?

I would point you to new testament revelation:

Romans {7:8} But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

 

[ReasonwithMe]

Exodus 13: 2

 

[disciple1]

romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

Romans chapter 11 verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

What do you make of this verse?

 

[Joe Fizz]

I have found not one verse in the Bible that support an age of accountability. Moreover, following your logic, Christians should be the greatest supporters of abortion, since it is the greatest Heaven filling method. That, of course, is complete nonsense.

you haven't searched out the bible alongside the holy spirit then,Jesus "clearly" told his disciples of how God feels about those who treat child wrongly as well as the "grand faith" of "all"'children,here's some scripture,since you require "proof" of where my statement comes from...Mark chp.10 verses 13-15"And they brought young children to him,that he should touch them:and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
But when Jesus saw it,he was much displeased,and said unto them,Suffer the little children to come unto me,and forbid them not:for of such is the kingdom of God.
Verily I say unto you,Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child,he shall not enter therein.(suffer referring to that he knew the children had great faith and yet let them come to him to be blessed despite them already being blessed because of their great faith,and had his disciples to understand that they too in order to enter the kingdom of God,would need to have the great faith of children)
Matthew chp.19 verses 13-14 Then were there brought unto him little children,that he should put his hands on them,and pray:and the disciples rebuked them.
But Jesus said,Suffer little children,and forbid them not,to come unto me:for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew chp.18 verses 1-6
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus,saying,Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
And Jesus called a little child unto him,and set him in the midst of them,
And said,Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,and become as little children,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child,the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck,and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
So childen are "innocent" therefore they upon death that have not partaken of sin,God accepts in to his kingdom,and do not know sin,(the unborn)as well as that we are not to "corrupt" them willfully and that God/Jesus punishes those who do willfully try to "corrupt"'children and that pretty much the individual who does so would rather seek death than live because God is angered and the punishment whatever it would be(it's up to God being a mystery to us)would be "clearly" "severe"!

 

[devin553344]

Romans chapter 11 verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

What do you make of this verse?

It points out disobedience is required, can fetus be disobedient?

 

[pshun2404]

romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

And indeed is near hyperbole. Hebrews wrote in stark contrasts to male a more general truth. Paul knew full well of Jesus Christ the Righteous, James the Righteous, and all who at his time and before had been declared righteous by God. Mary and Joseph were both righteous before God. Was God incorrect and Paul right? We know that is not what happened here. Paul was not opposing himself to God. So this general statement was to mean that no man is made right with God by the works of his flesh, and nothing more.

No! Babies are not born condemned. The word is clear that the Lord does not hold the sons accountable for the sins of the fathers (and that includes Adam). The soul that sins IT must die. It is OUR sin that separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2) and sin is a transgression of the Law, but it is not sin that condemns, it is unbelief.

God loves the little children and they are called the gift of God (would God's gift be little condemned devils?) and Jesus commands us to come to Him as little children (would that be like little devils?) and compares the Kingdom to them.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Well my view is there are two things about a baby.

1. They are innocent. If it dies it goes to heaven.

2. However they have until the age of accountability to become saved. Why? Because they are innocent indeed, but the evil seed is still there also. So once they are of age and die and are not saved, they go to hell.

 

[Joe Fizz]

It points out disobedience is required, can fetus be disobedient?

Precisely well said!