Ashes Can’t Repent (A Big Problem for the Universalist Story)

[Mark Corbett]

Ashes can’t repent. This is a big problem for the Universalist story.

I’m talking about the story which Christian Universalists promote. These Universalists are Christian in that they believe that the only way anyone can be saved is by God’s grace, and the only way His grace is experienced is through faith in Jesus Christ. Both the Bible and our experience tell us that many people die without placing their faith in Christ. Further, the Bible makes it quite clear that the unrighteous will be resurrected to face judgment and will be cast into hell. But the Universalist says there’s still hope for those people who have been cast into hell. God still wants them to be saved. They can still repent and put their faith in Jesus, and when they do, God will let them out of the lake of fire and welcome them into His presence. As long as we don’t look too carefully at what the Bible actually says, this story sounds good to some. This Universalist story has many problems. Among the biggest problems is this simple fact:

Ashes can’t repent. And the Bible tells us that people who are thrown into the lake of fire are burned to ashes.

There are a number of examples of God consuming people with fire in the Old Testament.

* In Leviticus we read about the tragic case of Nadab and Abihu, who, after disobeying the Lord’s command, are consumed by fire from the presence of the Lord. They die. (Leviticus 10:1-2)

* In Numbers we read of two cases of “fire from the Lord” consuming people in judgment (Numbers 11:1 and Numbers 16:35).

* The Lord sends down fire to consume soldiers sent to apprehend Elijah (2 Kings 1:10).

* The most famous judgment by fire occurs when God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25). The people are not tormented by fire, they are destroyed by fire.

How do we know that something similar will happen to the unrighteous who are cast into hell? First, there is the fact that we would normally expect people thrown into a lake of fire to be burned to ashes. But far more importantly, the Apostle Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, tells us specifically and explicitly that what happened to the bodies of the people at Sodom and Gomorrah will happen to the unrighteous on the day of judgment. Peter specifically points out that they will be burned to ashes:

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Peter was not the first to tell us this. Isaiah, speaking of the final destinies of people, wrote in the last chapter of Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:16 For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the LORD.
. . .
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.
23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD.
24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Isaiah 66:24 is later quoted by Jesus to describe what will happen to people in hell (see Mark 9:47-48). Notice that the fire is not being used to torture living people, but to consume dead bodies.

Malachi refers to the same fate for the unrighteous:

Malachi 4:1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.
3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.

John the Baptist is another prophet who tells us that the unrighteous will be burned up:

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up (katakaio) the chaff with unquenchable fire."

It’s worth noting that the word John the Baptist uses for “burning up” is katakaio. which consistently means to burn something completely with fire. To read more about katakaio, check out this blog post:

Downburned and Ashified, the Annihilation of the Unrighteous

Jesus uses this same word, katakaio, to also describe the final fate of the unrighteous:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned (katakaio); then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Furthermore, the author of Hebrews warns of a “raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:27).

How do Universalists respond to all this? They point out that fire can also be used to purify and they claim that it is the sins, or sinful nature, that is being burned up. That explanation would sound plausible until you read the actual words of the Bible. In 2 Peter 2:6, Isaiah 66:24, Malachi 4:3, and Matthew 13:30 (as interpreted by Jesus Himself a few verses later in Matthew 13:38), it is unrighteous people themselves, and not their deeds, which are burned up.

Some Universalists might try to claim that only the bodies and not the souls of the unrighteous are burned up. The problem with this is that Jesus tells us that the same thing will happen to both the bodies and souls of the unrighteous when they are cast into hell:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Conclusion

Universalists often focus on the “big story”. This is not in itself wrong. The Bible does present a big story. However, the Universalist version of the grand narrative of Scripture has many problems.

This post has been written so that it can be read on its own, but it is also the third in a series on problems with the Universalist story. In the first post I explained that their story has the wrong goal. In the second post, I explained that the Universalist story is not realistic because it fails to account for the biblical evidence that some will not love and trust God no matter what God does. After a certain point (which God only knows) giving them more time will not help them. In this post I have discussed the fact that the Universalist story involves people repenting while in the lake of fire. But there’s a problem:

Ashes can’t repent.​

This post originally appeared on my blog, here.





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[ClementofA]

This Universalist story has many problems. Among the biggest problems is this simple fact:

Ashes can’t repent. And the Bible tells us that people who are thrown into the lake of fire are burned to ashes.

Most Christians who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all humans to God as their Father through Jesus Christ, including both Early Church Fathers & modern day believers, do not accept your viewpoint that someone who is cremated or otherwise dead has been temporarily annihilated. They do not agree with the view of JWs and other groups that dead people no longer exist, are in oblivion, nothingness, until resurrection. They believe people in the LOF are alive, even if their bodies have been burned to ashes.

Some do believe as you do re death. They could answer that the repentance of those in the LOF will occur after death (including their second death) is abolished as per 1 Cor.15:26. For example:

As in Adam all die

 

[Mark Corbett]

Most Christians who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all humans to God as their Father through Jesus Christ, including both Early Church Fathers & modern day believers, do not accept your viewpoint that someone who is cremated or otherwise dead has been temporarily annihilated. They do not agree with the view of JWs and other groups that dead people no longer exist, are in oblivion, nothingness, until resurrection.

You seem to be assuming that I believe something which I do not, in fact, believe. I do not believe that those who die are in oblivion until resurrection. I believe that after our bodies die, our souls are separated from our bodies. The souls of the righteous are "with Christ, which is better by far" (Philippians 1:23). I believe that this "better by far" condition involves being consciously and joyously in Christ's presence. As for the condition of the unrighteous in between the death of their bodies and their resurrection, the Bible tells us exceedingly little. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus indicates that they may, at least some of the time, be in conscious torment. But it is a parable and it's main purpose is not to teach about the intermediate state. So we should be very cautious about basing doctrines about the intermediate state on it.

It is true that some who believe in annihilationism also believe in "soul sleep" or "physicalism". Others, like myself, are dualists. Most of us feel that this is a very minor point of doctrine compared to the issue of the final fate of the unrighteous.

 

[Mark Corbett]

They believe people in the LOF are alive, even if their bodies have been burned to ashes.

Yet Jesus taught that the same fate, destruction, awaits their bodies and souls:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[ClementofA]

You seem to be assuming that I believe something which I do not, in fact, believe. I do not believe that those who die are in oblivion until resurrection. I believe that after our bodies die, our souls are separated from our bodies. The souls of the righteous are "with Christ, which is better by far" (Philippians 1:23). I believe that this "better by far" condition involves being consciously and joyously in Christ's presence. As for the condition of the unrighteous in between the death of their bodies and their resurrection, the Bible tells us exceedingly little. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus indicates that they may, at least some of the time, be in conscious torment. But it is a parable and it's main purpose is not to teach about the intermediate state. So we should be very cautious about basing doctrines about the intermediate state on it.

It is true that some who believe in annihilationism also believe in "soul sleep" or "physicalism". Others, like myself, are dualists. Most of us feel that this is a very minor point of doctrine compared to the issue of the final fate of the unrighteous.

Thanks for clarifying that point regarding your view of the state of the dead.

When i raised this point before you did not correct it.

Also the comment in the OP about ashes in the LOF can't repent went along with that.

Ashes refer to physical bodies, not bodyless souls. So that their bodies in the LOF become ashes doesn't deal with the matter of whether or not a soul can repent in the LOF. Any references to unbelievers & ashes (i.e. being cremated) are irrelevant to the topic of their final destiny if you believe that the soul lives on after the death of the body.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Thanks for clarifying that point regarding your view of the state of the dead.

When i raised this point before you did not correct it.

Also the comment in the OP about ashes in the LOF can't repent went along with that.

Ashes refer to physical bodies, not bodyless souls. So that their bodies in the LOF become ashes doesn't deal with the matter of whether or not a soul can repent in the LOF. Any references to unbelievers & ashes (i.e. being cremated) are irrelevant to the topic of their final destiny if you believe that the soul lives on after the death of the body.

The fires that we (people) make can only destroy a body. But God will destroy both body and soul in hell. That's what Jesus says:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

One of the passages which speaks of the ungodly being burned to ashes is 2 Peter 2:6:

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Peter goes on to describe this fate in these words:

NIV 2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

It is not merely their bodies, but ungodly people who are destroyed. They do not live forever, they perish (John 3:16).

 

[ClementofA]

The fires that we (people) make can only destroy a body. But God will destroy both body and soul in hell. That's what Jesus says:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The same word for destroy in Mt.10:28 is used of the lost that Jesus said He is seeking to find. It is also used of the lost coin & sheep that were found & the prodigal son who was later saved. Therefore the use of the Greek word in question in connection to a person does not, in and of itself, prove such to be endlessly lost.

In the Old Testament God made a man like a beast for 7 years until He restored him to sanity. God is able to destroy the soul (Mt.10:28) of a man in many ways, such as in the sense of bring it to ruin for the good of the sinner. He is able to destroy the flesh nature of man, the old man, the soul of the old Adam, that he be reborn in Christ a new creature, a new creation. That destruction could be an extremely painful experience for a long period of time in those who are especially hardened.

"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24...of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28;..."(Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

One of the passages which speaks of the ungodly being burned to ashes is 2 Peter 2:6:

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

The bodies of the people of Sodom were made ashes. Not their souls.

Peter goes on to describe this fate in these words:

NIV 2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

"684 /apoleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apollymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being" (Vine's Expository Dictionary).

The "loss of well being" will be their punishment that will serve to correct them for their own good & ultimate salvation.

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

The Greek word for "chastening" in 2 Pet.2:9 above can mean correction.

Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise

It is not merely their bodies, but ungodly people who are destroyed. They do not live forever, they perish (John 3:16).

The Greek word for "perish" in Jn.3:16 is the same Greek word as in Mt.10:28 above, which can mean loss of well being or ruin.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Mark Corbett]

The same word for destroy in Mt.10:28 is used of the lost that Jesus said He is seeking to find.
. . .
"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. ;..."(Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

ClementofA, my brother in Christ, in many ways we think alike. We both seek to base our beliefs on a careful and correct understanding of the Bible. We both believe all verses in the Bible are true (at least you seem to believe this, based on the way you reason from Scripture). Therefore, if we come across a verse which many would interpret in a way which we believe is contrary to the teaching of the whole Bible, we examine that verse carefully, and other verses, and work to see how it fits in. Among the methods we use is word studies of the original Greek words. I respect you. Yet, despite our similar goals and methods, on the issue of the final fate of the unrighteous, we disagree. One word we disagree about is the Greek word apollumi as used in Matthew 10:28.

First, I do not agree that apollumi means merely “ruin” when used to describe what one being does to another being.

But there is another problem for your argument with regard to Matthew 10:28. Even IF apollumi meant “ruin” in that verse it would NOT support universalism. Read the verse and see:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can apollumi both soul and body in hell.

If you insert “ruin” for apollumi, then Jesus is saying that God ruins the soul in hell. This certainly in not even remotely close to the Universalist interpretation.

In order to get the interpretation of apollumi which you desire, you not only have to interpret apollumi to mean “ruin” (which is wrong in this context), you also have to ADD the words “in order to save it”. Those words are not in any Greek text of Matthew 10:28.

There is yet another problem for your interpretation. A major point of the OP for this thread is that God will turn the unrighteous into ashes in hell and ashes cannot repent. Your reply (in comments #2 and #5) argue that only the bodies are turned into ashes, which might leave open the possibility that the souls of the unrighteous could repent in hell. Your interpretation fails to recognize these three facts:

1. The bodies of the unrighteous will be turned into ashes in hell.
2. According to Jesus, God does the same thing (apollumi) to both the body and soul in hell.
3. Ashes cannot repent, so there can be no further opportunity for repentance once someone is cast into hell.

 

[Noxot]

lol you are right, ashes have moved on to better things than repentance.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I should note that not only can ashes not repent, they also cannot experience conscious torment. Thus the Bible passages which picture and teach that the ungodly are finally reduced to ashes support only one of the three major views of hell among Christians. Those three view are pictured here, in this diagram from Rethinking Hell:

 

[ClementofA]

ClementofA, my brother in Christ, in many ways we think alike. We both seek to base our beliefs on a careful and correct understanding of the Bible. We both believe all verses in the Bible are true (at least you seem to believe this, based on the way you reason from Scripture). Therefore, if we come across a verse which many would interpret in a way which we believe is contrary to the teaching of the whole Bible, we examine that verse carefully, and other verses, and work to see how it fits in. Among the methods we use is word studies of the original Greek words. I respect you. Yet, despite our similar goals and methods, on the issue of the final fate of the unrighteous, we disagree. One word we disagree about is the Greek word apollumi as used in Matthew 10:28.

Thank you for your gracious & kind remarks, Mark. I certainly concur with what you are saying here. I'm sure there are many Biblical teachings where we would be in harmony, including those amongst the most important to the Christian faith.

First, I do not agree that apollumi means merely “ruin” when used to describe what one being does to another being.

But there is another problem for your argument with regard to Matthew 10:28. Even IF apollumi meant “ruin” in that verse it would NOT support universalism. Read the verse and see:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can apollumi both soul and body in hell.

If you insert “ruin” for apollumi, then Jesus is saying that God ruins the soul in hell. This certainly in not even remotely close to the Universalist interpretation.

I don't think any Restorationist (i.e. universalist) would consider Mt.10:28 as "support [for] universalism". I am rather taking the position that it is not out of harmony with the eventual reconciliation of all as taught elsewhere in the Scriptures.

In order to get the interpretation of apollumi which you desire, you not only have to interpret apollumi to mean “ruin” (which is wrong in this context), you also have to ADD the words “in order to save it”. Those words are not in any Greek text of Matthew 10:28.

We cannot expect one verse to give us the whole story of the Bible or the entire teaching of the fate of the unbelievers who die in unbelief. Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

Another point from Matthews' gospel that would favor Restorationism is that the word kolasis at Mt.25:46 can mean corrective discipline, for the good of the offender. This & other points re the same verse were elaborated in a post (#225, p.11) to you in this thread:

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

There is yet another problem for your interpretation. A major point of the OP for this thread is that God will turn the unrighteous into ashes in hell and ashes cannot repent. Your reply (in comments #2 and #5) argue that only the bodies are turned into ashes, which might leave open the possibility that the souls of the unrighteous could repent in hell. Your interpretation fails to recognize these three facts:

1. The bodies of the unrighteous will be turned into ashes in hell.
2. According to Jesus, God does the same thing (apollumi) to both the body and soul in hell.
3. Ashes cannot repent, so there can be no further opportunity for repentance once someone is cast into hell.

It is true that Jesus spoke of the ability to "destroy" (apolummi) both body and soul in Gehenna. As per Mt.10:28 which you have provided above.

As i understand your viewpoint, Mark, when a body is cremated (turned to ashes), the soul lives on much like as in the parable of the rich man & Lazarus. A soul is not a body or physical so it can never be burned & become ashes. So i would suggest that any biblical references to ashes would not refer to your concept of the soul. Therefore they would not support your idea that a soul is annihilated endlessly. To support your position you'ld need a passage of Scripture that teaches that a soul or souls will be endlessly exterminated, or the like.

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence": Definition of DESTROY

For a mortal body to be ruined or destroyed in Gehenna it evidently involves dieing & being changed in its form, such as by being burnt to ashes & or smoke, etc. It still exists & is not annihilated since matter cannot be annihilated, only changed in its form. Not, at least, until God creates a new universe.

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

If Satan & demons are there in the LOF to possess people, just casting them into the LOF could result in people being psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Otherwise why would the scriptures speaks of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostasized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

A related matter to the understanding of Mt.10:28 is the use of the same Greek words for "soul" and "destroy" a few verses later in the context of the same chapter 10 of Matthew:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up (katakaio) the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

Jesus uses this same word, katakaio, to also describe the final fate of the unrighteous:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned (katakaio); then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Jesus' interpretation of this parable is given in Matthew 13:37-43. He states "at the end of the age" the wicked will be put "into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". That doesn't sound like annihilation. Furthermore, there is nothing in this description of "final fate", but only what will happen "at the end of the age", with at least two more ages to follow (Eph.2:7). This passage tells us nothing about what happens to those in the fire in the future ages.

Furthermore, the author of Hebrews warns of a “raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:27).

"But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb.10:27).

The old man, the sinful nature, is certainly an "adversary" to God. But once "any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor.5:17). The Greek word for "adversaries" is only used one other time in the NT: "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." (Col.2:14).

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

How do Universalists respond to all this? They point out that fire can also be used to purify and they claim that it is the sins, or sinful nature, that is being burned up.

Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering.
For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.


**************************************


"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Forum

 

[DamianWarS]

Ashes can’t repent. This is a big problem for the Universalist story.

I’m talking about the story which Christian Universalists promote. These Universalists are Christian in that they believe that the only way anyone can be saved is by God’s grace, and the only way His grace is experienced is through faith in Jesus Christ. Both the Bible and our experience tell us that many people die without placing their faith in Christ. Further, the Bible makes it quite clear that the unrighteous will be resurrected to face judgment and will be cast into hell. But the Universalist says there’s still hope for those people who have been cast into hell. God still wants them to be saved. They can still repent and put their faith in Jesus, and when they do, God will let them out of the lake of fire and welcome them into His presence. As long as we don’t look too carefully at what the Bible actually says, this story sounds good to some. This Universalist story has many problems. Among the biggest problems is this simple fact:

Ashes can’t repent. And the Bible tells us that people who are thrown into the lake of fire are burned to ashes.

There are a number of examples of God consuming people with fire in the Old Testament.

* In Leviticus we read about the tragic case of Nadab and Abihu, who, after disobeying the Lord’s command, are consumed by fire from the presence of the Lord. They die. (Leviticus 10:1-2)

* In Numbers we read of two cases of “fire from the Lord” consuming people in judgment (Numbers 11:1 and Numbers 16:35).

* The Lord sends down fire to consume soldiers sent to apprehend Elijah (2 Kings 1:10).

* The most famous judgment by fire occurs when God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25). The people are not tormented by fire, they are destroyed by fire.

How do we know that something similar will happen to the unrighteous who are cast into hell? First, there is the fact that we would normally expect people thrown into a lake of fire to be burned to ashes. But far more importantly, the Apostle Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, tells us specifically and explicitly that what happened to the bodies of the people at Sodom and Gomorrah will happen to the unrighteous on the day of judgment. Peter specifically points out that they will be burned to ashes:

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Peter was not the first to tell us this. Isaiah, speaking of the final destinies of people, wrote in the last chapter of Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:16 For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the LORD.
. . .
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.
23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD.
24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Isaiah 66:24 is later quoted by Jesus to describe what will happen to people in hell (see Mark 9:47-48). Notice that the fire is not being used to torture living people, but to consume dead bodies.

Malachi refers to the same fate for the unrighteous:

Malachi 4:1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.
3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.

John the Baptist is another prophet who tells us that the unrighteous will be burned up:

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up (katakaio) the chaff with unquenchable fire."

It’s worth noting that the word John the Baptist uses for “burning up” is katakaio. which consistently means to burn something completely with fire. To read more about katakaio, check out this blog post:

Downburned and Ashified, the Annihilation of the Unrighteous

Jesus uses this same word, katakaio, to also describe the final fate of the unrighteous:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned (katakaio); then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Furthermore, the author of Hebrews warns of a “raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:27).

How do Universalists respond to all this? They point out that fire can also be used to purify and they claim that it is the sins, or sinful nature, that is being burned up. That explanation would sound plausible until you read the actual words of the Bible. In 2 Peter 2:6, Isaiah 66:24, Malachi 4:3, and Matthew 13:30 (as interpreted by Jesus Himself a few verses later in Matthew 13:38), it is unrighteous people themselves, and not their deeds, which are burned up.

Some Universalists might try to claim that only the bodies and not the souls of the unrighteous are burned up. The problem with this is that Jesus tells us that the same thing will happen to both the bodies and souls of the unrighteous when they are cast into hell:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Conclusion

Universalists often focus on the “big story”. This is not in itself wrong. The Bible does present a big story. However, the Universalist version of the grand narrative of Scripture has many problems.

This post has been written so that it can be read on its own, but it is also the third in a series on problems with the Universalist story. In the first post I explained that their story has the wrong goal. In the second post, I explained that the Universalist story is not realistic because it fails to account for the biblical evidence that some will not love and trust God no matter what God does. After a certain point (which God only knows) giving them more time will not help them. In this post I have discussed the fact that the Universalist story involves people repenting while in the lake of fire. But there’s a problem:

Ashes can’t repent.​

This post originally appeared on my blog, here.





a

ashes can't do a lot of things inconsistent with eternal punishment and if they cannot repent then it means the cognitive ability has been severely compromised or completely absent as would be consistent with burnt human remains, it seems you are suggesting annihilation.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 speaks of condemnation upon the King of Tyre; it is commonly accepted as figuratively referring to Satan. In the text the king is cast down from the mountain of God and is consumed by fire and turned into ashes. The text reads:

"I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever."

If we look to the resurrection of Christ as a type of what the redeemed resurrection will look like with incorruptible bodies then perhaps the unredeemed can look at Satan as a type for their fate. It seems in the Ezekiel text Satan is brought to ashes and "shall be no more forever". this is in direct contrast with Revelation 20:10 reading "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

which is it? the bible says both.

 

[Mark Corbett]

ashes can't do a lot of things inconsistent with eternal punishment and if they cannot repent then it means the cognitive ability has been severely compromised or completely absent as would be consistent with burnt human remains, it seems you are suggesting annihilation.

DamianWarS, my brother in Christ and fellow follower of Isa Al Masih,

I'm not merely suggesting annihilation. I'm convinced of annihilation, and I believe that God is working at this time to correct the long held and widely believed error of eternal conscious torment. I also am trying to keep people from embracing universalism as it is a false alternative. I am trying to show, from the Bible, why I am convinced that the unrighteous will eventually perish (John 3:16), be burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6), be destroyed in body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and "be no more" (Psalm 37:10). I'm doing this here on this forum. I also preached a two part message on this at my church. Here are the videos:

and

May God guide us all into His truth.

 

[DamianWarS]

it seems you put a lot of weight into key verses but there are undeniable contrasts within the bible that counter your position. I see the bible as written for the living not the dead so although it has details of the afterlife it should only be thought of as broad strokes not fine detail. In terms of "hell", hades, gehenna and the lake of fire these are images of what is to come for the unredeemed and regardless what they are I think it's irresponsible to be too specific with these images. I think the important value is simply we don't want to go there.