Quoting Calvin

[Truthfrees]

That's a claim. You'll have to explain how these verses support your assertion.

already did that the first time i quoted these same scriptures 2 pages back

you cut them out though when you quoted the post they were in

if you really want to reply to them now then check 2 pages back to get the full message i posted concerning them

God Bless you my dear friend

 

[Hammster]

not for those of us who like a full discussion to learn what scripture says

short non-informative answers are easier to read though than long thorough thought out answers

Except it really didn't respond to the point I was making. If you like to read them, fine. Just don't mistake it for a response.

 

[Hammster]

already did that the first time i quoted these same scriptures 2 pages back

you cut them out though when you quoted the post they were in

if you really want to reply to them now then check 2 pages back to get the full message i posted concerning them

You didn't then, either. All you r done is make a point and post a reference.

 

[Truthfrees]

Except it really didn't respond to the point I was making. If you like to read them, fine. Just don't mistake it for a response.

i thought it addressed the point very well

we must be talking on 2 different channels

which is ok

i guess that is what 2 different view points really are - 2 different channels

so i guess for those on the free will channel the points were exquisite

for those on the limited/bound will channel they are a non- answer

so it looks like there will be no meaningful discussion after all

i was hoping there could be

i did however thoroughly enjoy the information that was expressed by the free will side in answer to your posts

it helped clarify things for me

God Bless you my dear friend

i appreciate you

 

[Hammster]

this is what scripture says about how regeneration comes after faith not before:

1. scripture says the gospel is the power of God that produces salvation/regeneration - Romans 1:16

2. if they do not first hear the gospel they can not be saved - Romans 10:14-16

Okay, neither one of these verses says that regeneration follows faith. And the second one isn't even a counter-argument to anything I've said or believe.

 

[Truthfrees]

You didn't then, either. All you r done is make a point and post a reference.

that's ok my friend

as per my recent post we appear to be on 2 different channels

i appreciate where the discussion has come to so far

i greatly appreciate the exquisitely detailed posts in this thread

their hard work contributed to a very effective discussion

God Bless you my friend

 

[Hammster]

that's ok my friend

as per my recent post we appear to be on 2 different channels

i appreciate where the discussion has come to so far

i greatly appreciate the exquisitely detailed posts in this thread

their hard work contributed to a very effective discussion

God Bless you my friend

If you're satisfied with making unsubstantiated posts, okie dokie.

 

[Truthfrees]

Okay, neither one of these verses says that regeneration follows faith. And the second one isn't even a counter-argument to anything I've said or believe.

that's ok my dear friend

we are on 2 different channels and no longer going in a productive direction

too many of my posts have been bantered rather than discussed

i enjoy Jennifer's thoroughness and now would like to continue the discussion with someone who has a desire to teach what the limited/bound will side believes

i have researched as far as i can on my own - based on your posts and Jennifer's posts

so i now need a interlocutor with a teaching gift - someone who can explain and expound

God Bless you

thank you for bringing the discussion to the place it is now

i have been blessed

 

[Truthfrees]

If you're satisfied with making unsubstantiated posts, okie dokie.

as i said i need someone with a teaching gift to discuss these things with

banter has taken this discussion to this point - which is good

a lot of good information came out

but the banter is now redundant

there is nothing left to glean from it

thank you for your excellent contribution to this point

God Bless you my dear friend

 

[Hammster]

as i said i need someone with a teaching gift to discuss these things with

banter has taken this discussion to this point - which is good

a lot of good information came out

but the banter is now redundant

there is nothing left to glean from it

thank you for your excellent contribution to this point

God Bless you my dear friend

So you have no intention of trying support what you stated to be truth? Just making sure I understand.

 

[Truthfrees]

So you have no intention of trying support what you stated to be truth? Just making sure I understand.

i did 2 pages back - probably 3 pages now

you don't really teach or explain

i'm hoping someone with a teaching gift will be interested in continuing

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

If you're satisfied with making unsubstantiated posts, okie dokie.

Substantiating with Scripture is 'unsubstantiated?' Scripture would seem to be the best support one can give a claim, vs. philosophy or assertion, especially when the scripture is not taken out of context and is backed up by other scriptures which detail the same thing.

The verse he gave is Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Which is followed by Rom 1:17 in case there are any questions on how it contextually applies: "For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith."

Note the sequence in these two verses:

1) Gospel revealed
2) Faith/belief
3) Power of God brings salvation (washing/baptism, regeneration, justification, etc.)
4) Righteous live by the faith they started in

It's not reversed, such as saying that we first must receive new life or regeneration so we can respond to the gospel and believe.

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation." James 1:18

It was God's will that our birth come through the word of truth (faith comes by hearing), - not new birth by the Spirit prior to our hearing with faith.

We see in other scriptures that this living by faith is done by the power of God as the Spirit works in us to create new life.

Rom 6:
"...We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life....For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness...When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life...."

"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:26

"For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God’s power we will live with him in our dealing with you. Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test?: I Cor 13:4-5

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Gal 5:24-25

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:9-15

I Cor 6:11-19:

"...And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God....The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? ...But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit....Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."

"But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation." Gal 6:14-15

(Here again, our new creation is linked to our spiritual baptism - dying to self/sin and living unto Christ.)

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." II Cor 5:17

(Not 'if anyone is made a new creature, he can join to Christ in faith')

Etc.

His claim is backed up throughout Scripture that faith leads to salvation which comes with new life by the Spirit in Christ (regeneration of our formerly fleshly nature.)

 

[Hammster]

i did 2 pages back - probably 3 pages now

you don't really teach or explain

i'm hoping someone with a teaching gift will be interested in continuing

Here's your post.

Quoting Calvin

No different than the one today. No explanation. Just an assertion and a link to a verse that doesn't support it.

 

[Hammster]

Note the sequence in these two verses:

1) Gospel revealed
2) Faith/belief
3) Power of God brings salvation (washing/baptism, regeneration, justification, etc.)
4) Righteous live by the faith they started in

That's not what the verse says. So since you got that wrong, there's no need to read further.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You could make the argument that we are justified by faith, which Paul does later. But not regenerated by faith.

 

[Truthfrees]

Here's your post.

Quoting Calvin

No different than the one today. No explanation. Just an assertion and a link to a verse that doesn't support it.

that's ok my friend

i will discuss it further with someone who wants to teach not banter

the post is complete - explanation and then scripture to back the explanation

it's all there my friend

you see nothing in my posts or Jenifer's posts - so there is no further reason to put so much work into explaining things to you and then have you say you see nothing

 

[Hammster]

“For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:3-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here we have Paul showing the depravity of man, and explaining that we are not saved by deeds done in righteousness. We are saved by His mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

This also aligns with Romans 8 where he says

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Those according to the flesh (those who are unsaved) set their minds on things of the flesh. Paul gives no provision for the unregenerate to think on things of the Spirit.

So it's obvious that apart from a work of God, nobody will believe.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

“For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:3-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here we have Paul showing the depravity of man, and explaining that we are not saved by deeds done in righteousness. We are saved by His mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

This also aligns with Romans 8 where he says

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Those according to the flesh (those who are unsaved) set their minds on things of the flesh. Paul gives no provision for the unregenerate to think on things of the Spirit.

So it's obvious that apart from a work of God, nobody will believe.

I addressed Tit 3:3-7, in depth, in post #437 in this thread.

"...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal/regeneration by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." Tit 3:3-7

Since regeneration is a term only used here and in Matt 19:28, we have to look at the surrounding scripture/context and parallel passages to understand what it is referring to.

The renewal by the Spirit in Tit 3:3-7 is tied in with the 'washing of rebirth,' the pouring out of the spirit, mercy, and justification by grace.

Justification comes by faith, not before faith (Rom 4:2-10, Rom 4:23-24, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:39, etc.)

The washing of rebirth is a clear allusion to baptism (I Pet 3:21, I Tim 1:5, ph 4:4-6, II Cor 5:14-17, Col 2:11-13, etc.)

Faith precedes rising to a 'new life' in the power of God (Col 2:11-13)

The pouring out of the Spirit also follows faith: (Gal 3:2, Acts 10:45, Rom 5:1-11, etc.)

And note the very next verse! "This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds." The passage is not cutting faith out of the picture at all!

It is merely one description of things that accompany salvation by faith vs. works, as described elsewhere in passages like Eph 2:5-9, Gal 2:15-16, Rom 4:2-7, Rom 15:7-13, Rom 3:21-26, Jd 1:20-21, etc.

Rom 8 also does not support your view that regeneration must precede faith.

First, since Rom 8 begins with 'therefore...' it is important to read Rom 7 for the context to see what the 'therefore' is concluding from.

Rom 7:4-6 "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Rom 7:21-25
"So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is speaking, in context, of how believers serve in the new way of the spirit, and of the struggle between the mind now subject to God and the flesh still corrupted by sin.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1-2

Paul is speaking of those in Christ Jesus, and how the law of the Spirit sets us free from condemnation, even when we still struggle with sin. He is not making any claim about being under the law of the Spirit or needing new life prior to faith. His words are to those in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:3-8 "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Here Paul moves on to the work of Christ on the cross, and specifically how God's condemnation of sin allows us (believers) to now meet the righteous requirement of the law, since believers live according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:4-8 "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Here Paul is speaking of who our lives are submitted to. Those who live according to the flesh seek to please the flesh, but those governed by the Spirit (believers) bear the fruit of life and peace. If one remains in the realm of the flesh, hostile to God, one cannot please God.

Again, Paul is talking about 'living' submitted to either the flesh or the Spirit, such as described in Gal 5:13-26 as walking by the Spirit vs. giving in to the desires of the flesh. He even warns believers not to submit to the flesh, for it is contrary to the Spirit.

So, how does one stop living according to the flesh and turn to submission to the Spirit? Faith! (I Jn 4:14, Heb 11:6, Jn 3:3-21, etc.)

Rom 8:9-17
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

Etc. Paul continues speaking to believers of the difference between a life led by the Spirit vs. life by the flesh. Nothing in the context nor word use mandates that a non-believer must be regenerated by the Spirit prior to faith - it is all about how believers, the children of God, walk by the Spirit so we can put to death the misdeeds of the body, and how there is no condemnation for sin for those who have the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

I addressed Tit 3:3-7, in depth, in post #437 in this thread.

"...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal/regeneration by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." Tit 3:3-7

Since regeneration is a term only used here and in Matt 19:28, we have to look at the surrounding scripture/context and parallel passages to understand what it is referring to.

The renewal by the Spirit in Tit 3:3-7 is tied in with the 'washing of rebirth,' the pouring out of the spirit, mercy, and justification by grace.

Justification comes by faith, not before faith (Rom 4:2-10, Rom 4:23-24, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:39, etc.)

The washing of rebirth is a clear allusion to baptism (I Pet 3:21, I Tim 1:5, ph 4:4-6, II Cor 5:14-17, Col 2:11-13, etc.)

Faith precedes rising to a 'new life' in the power of God (Col 2:11-13)

The pouring out of the Spirit also follows faith: (Gal 3:2, Acts 10:45, Rom 5:1-11, etc.)

And note the very next verse! "This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds." The passage is not cutting faith out of the picture at all!

It is merely one description of things that accompany salvation by faith vs. works, as described elsewhere in passages like Eph 2:5-9, Gal 2:15-16, Rom 4:2-7, Rom 15:7-13, Rom 3:21-26, Jd 1:20-21, etc.

Rom 8 also does not support your view that regeneration must precede faith.

First, since Rom 8 begins with 'therefore...' it is important to read Rom 7 for the context to see what the 'therefore' is concluding from.

Rom 7:4-6 "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Rom 7:21-25
"So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is speaking, in context, of how believers serve in the new way of the spirit, and of the struggle between the mind now subject to God and the flesh still corrupted by sin.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1-2

Paul is speaking of those in Christ Jesus, and how the law of the Spirit sets us free from condemnation, even when we still struggle with sin. He is not making any claim about being under the law of the Spirit or needing new life prior to faith. His words are to those in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:3-8 "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Here Paul moves on to the work of Christ on the cross, and specifically how God's condemnation of sin allows us (believers) to now meet the righteous requirement of the law, since believers live according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:4-8 "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Here Paul is speaking of who our lives are submitted to. Those who live according to the flesh seek to please the flesh, but those governed by the Spirit (believers) bear the fruit of life and peace. If one remains in the realm of the flesh, hostile to God, one cannot please God.

Again, Paul is talking about 'living' submitted to either the flesh or the Spirit, such as described in Gal 5:13-26 as walking by the Spirit vs. giving in to the desires of the flesh. He even warns believers not to submit to the flesh, for it is contrary to the Spirit.

So, how does one stop living according to the flesh and turn to submission to the Spirit? Faith! (I Jn 4:14, Heb 11:6, Jn 3:3-21, etc.)

Rom 8:9-17
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

Etc. Paul continues speaking to believers of the difference between a life led by the Spirit vs. life by the flesh. Nothing in the context nor word use mandates that a non-believer must be regenerated by the Spirit prior to faith - it is all about how believers, the children of God, walk by the Spirit so we can put to death the misdeeds of the body, and how there is no condemnation for sin for those who have the Spirit of Christ.

If believers can't please God in the flesh, which I could see Paul talking about (except for Romans 8:9-10), then how much more so for unbelievers? No matter, nobody can please God in the flesh. Faith is pleasing to God.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

If believers can't please God in the flesh, which I could see Paul talking about (except for Romans 8:9-10), then how much more so for unbelievers? No matter, nobody can please God in the flesh. Faith is pleasing to God.

We have already discussed that very point over and over.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb 11:6

"Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. " Rom 8:8-9

Paul is talking about how those who live by the flesh cannot please God, not about their inability to respond to the gospel in faith. The term please in rom 8:8, areskó, means 'satisfy' - to please with the connotation of service rendered, to make good on something so meet expectations - winning favor by especially by being in moral agreement. Paul is speaking of ongoing lifestyle/service in this passage - who controls you.

In Heb 11:6, the term uarestéō is to please (gratify) by giving what is acceptable. In this case it is not service, but 'faith' that allows one to please God.

Consider the following statements:

'Those in jail cannot pleasingly serve the judge. However, you are not in jail, but are freemen, if you have the golden ticket in your possession.'
'Without accepting a pardon and admitting guilt, you cannot win the favor of the judge.'

Does the first statement logically demand that a person have a golden ticket in his possession before accepting a pardon? No! A third statement shows the more likely sequence: 'If you accept the pardon you will receive a golden ticket.'

Since faith takes us out of the realm of the flesh and into the control of the Spirit, it allows us to please God both by meeting His requirements and continue to please God in service.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We have to put Calvin into the historical context in which he lived. He was the first real Protestant theologian. Luther did a lot of teaching, but he never set out a systematic theology in the way that Calvin did. Calvin was a pioneer in the area of Protestant systematic theology and a lot of his theology is in reaction and opposition to much of the Roman Catholic theology that existed. Although he got a lot of things right, it has to be understood that his theology, just like everyone else's, is not perfect. It is just that he concentrated on predestination and election because Catholic theology ignored that side of God's dealing with mankind. My view of Catholic theology is that it is more allied to Arminianism which concentrates on man's responsibility to maintain his faith and a holy life before God. There is no assurance of salvation in Catholic theology. One has to wait until the judgment to find out whether his good works outweighed his sins or vice versa. Calvin attempted to put another view so as to give believers a better sense of assurance and therefore a better sense of peace and security in the faith. So, he didn't do it perfectly; so what? At least it was one step toward giving Christian believers a strong foundation of faith and security in Christ than they had before. It is too easy to look back 600 years and rubbish Calvin just because he got a few points wrong. After all, whose theology is absolutely perfect? We have the treasure in earthen vessels, so no one's theology is perfect.

Calvin's influence through the next 200 years brought a lot a folks to salvation and security in Christ. The Puritan and Welsh Revivals were based largely on Calvin's theology. George Whitefield was Calvinist, and he was possibly the most effective evangelist that America experienced before Billy Graham!

By the same token, John Wesley, who had Arminian leanings, had thousands of conversions and was the catalyst in starting a totally new denomination that remained fired up and effective for Christ for over 100 years after his death. The Methodist Holiness movement gave birth to the Pentecostal revival that brought thousands upon thousands into the kingdom of God. Some might not agree with some of the Pentecostal theology but it cannot be denied that it was and still is an effective force to getting people saved, much to the jealousy and envy of less powerful denominations. I would say that most of the criticism of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements arises out of just shear jealousy and envy because they are much more attractive to seekers after salvation than those who are critical of them.

If Arminians don't love Calvinists, then they don't love Jesus because He instructed us that loving others is the central principle of the gospel. In the same way, Calvinists who don't love Arminians are guilty of the same sin. So those taking sides against the other are just as bad as the other.

Let's face it, souls are won for Christ by both Arminian and Calvinist churches. Charles Spurgeon was Calvinist in his theology and he was perhaps the greatest soul-winner of the 19th Century and in all his sermons there is the appeal for people to choose Christ as Saviour. Who among us is going to rubbish him because of his Calvinist theology? Those who would like, as I read on another post, to throw Calvinists into the deepest pit of hell, are saying that they would throw George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, and all the Puritan Calvinists who were burned at the stake into that pit as well! What a ridiculous thought, but then that's what religious intolerance does to people.