God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

[Doveaman]

Did God have some "unrighteous requirements" in His Ten Commandments that He wrote with His own hand and spoke personally to mankind?

Is there some Bible text saying that??

, not against the "latter" of the law:

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

You are re-posting the same post that I already responded to here.

I take this to be a sign that you are unable to refute my previous reply.

Exodus 20... "God speaking"

God is not speaking to all mankind in Exodus 20, He is speaking only to the Jews through Moses.

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 says that specifically it is "Christ speaking" -- these are HIS Commandments according to Hebrews 8.

Hebrews 8 tells us that the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant:

"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt." -- (Hebrews 8:6-10).

The Old Covenant was established with the Jews who were led out of "Egypt", and not with all mankind:

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt." -- (Hebrews 8:6-10).

The Old Covenant was established on the 10 Commandments:

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." -- (Deuteronomy 4:13).

The Old Covenant was based on the Ten Commandments, and we are told in Hebrews 8 that the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant which was based on the Ten Commandments:

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt." -- (Hebrews 8:6-10).

The point remains.

"This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Yes, the point remains:

“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another” -- (1 John 3:23).

You keep quoting "you" for the salient-unproven-part of your argument

Christ said "
Luke 16:17
New American Standard Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

That's correct:

"He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.'" -- (Luke 24:44).

 

[BobRyan]

You are re-posting the same post that I already responded to here.

I take this to be a sign that you are unable to refute my previous reply.

I take it as a sign that my post is "irrefutable" no matter the thread it is on as long as the subject is the same.

God is speaking of all mankind in Exodus 20 -- it is wrong/sin for all mankind whoever they are that worships idols and take God's name in vain.

Obviously.

Just as we have the NEW Covenant all Christians love and accept given to "the house of Israel" in Hebrews 8 and also in Jeremiah 31.

Y
God is not speaking to all mankind in Exodus 20,

See? that is what I mean .. .my response is irrefutable.

He is speaking only to the Jews through Moses.
Hebrews 8 tells us that the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant:

"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt." -- (Hebrews 8:6-10).

As I just said - that is a direct quote of Jeremiah 31:31-33 .. the NEW Covenant is for ALL mankind - and is given to the SAME group as the TEN Commandments "the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. "

That is why I posted this -- showing the lost Jews do NOT keep the Law of God but rather are transgressors of that same law - OT and NT.
==================================

The Jews kept the letter of the law: the 10 Commandments,

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)


Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

Where in scripture did God spoke the Ten Commandments personally to mankind?

Exodus 20... "God speaking"

 

[Bob S]

What would make anyone feel that they could keep the letter of the law any better than the Jews did, and that would include the weekly Sabbath? I tried it and never could. I guess if you make up your own rules as to what is Holy you might have a better chance.

 

[Doveaman]

I take it as a sign that my post is "irrefutable" no matter the thread it is on as long as the subject is the same.

God is speaking of all mankind in Exodus 20

No, He is not.

God is speaking to those who were slaves in Egypt:

"And God spoke all these words:
'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
'Thou shalt not ....'" -- (Exodus 20).

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

Exodus 20... "God speaking"

I take it that you have obviously given up, because you are just repeating yourself now.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Giving up? No worries here. THere never was much hope of life for this thread.

When a thread starts with a false precept as the title, what could be expected ?

 

[Doveaman]

Giving up? No worries here. THere never was much hope of life for this thread.

When a thread starts with a false precept as the title, what could be expected ?

Why do I get the impression that you are praying for this thread to die?

The life of a thread is not determined by the few who disagree, but by the many who agree.

 

[Doveaman]

Which one should we follow? Or shall we call the Commandments of God - the LAW of God - sin??

hint: scripture is never called "The law of sin" - not even in Romans 7.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says that in his flesh HE SERVES the LAW of sin. He is obedient to the LAW of SIN. which is EVIL - that is at WAR against the LAW of God.

Now lets go to Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah standing WITH Christ in glory -

Question: Since this is before the cross are they servants of sin, servants of the law of sin - the law opposed to "The LAW of God"???

We all know what the answer is -- the contrast in Romans 7 is between the sinful nature - vs - the LAW of God that is "Holy just and good".

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
..
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Everyone has free will - which Law do you choose?

The law of commandments can also be considered a law of sin and death.

The purpose of the law of commandments was to expose the harmfulness of sin by condemning us to death for sin:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin receives its power to condemn us to death through the law:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Sin has no power to condemn us to death when we are not under the law:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are not under the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[Doveaman]

In Romans 4 and 5 Paul points out that SIN existed before Sinai - and that this could NOT be the case if there was no law before Sinai. Because where there is no law there can be no sin for as John points out "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still to this very day.

You keep putting your own spin on Paul's writings.

Paul did not "point out that SIN existed before Sinai". That's your spin.

Paul simply said that sin was in the world before the law was given, period.

"For before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- ( Romans 5:13).

Paul is saying that sin was in the world before the letter of the law was ever given, but sin had no power to condemn us because there was no law through which sin could condemn us: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

This is also why Paul said:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Paul is making a very simple point:

If there is no letter of law against sin you cannot be condemned for sin, but when a letter of law against sin is introduced you can now be condemned for sin.

If there is no letter of law against speeding you cannot be convicted of speeding, but when a letter of law against speeding is introduced you can now be convicted of speeding.

It's that simple.

And whether or not the letter of law exists against speeding it is still reckless and wrong to speed.

And whether or not the letter of law exists against sin it is still reckless and wrong to sin.

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are forgiven and therefore not under the condemnation of the law

There is more to it than that.

The law also brings death to those who rely on it and live by it:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath." -- (Romans 4:14-15).

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23) - because it never was the role of the LAW to condemn righteous actions.

As we both already know.

Speak for yourself, not for me.

Those who are led by the law of the Spirit do not need the letter of the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

Those who are led by the law of the Spirit are obedient to the love of the Spirit, and those who are obedient to the love of the Spirit do not need the letter of the law, because love fulfills the requirements of the law:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who never had the letter of the law, are able to honor their parents out of love from their hearts, thereby fulfilling the requirements of the law, even though they never had the letter of the law.

 

[Doveaman]

In Romans 4 and 5 Paul points out that SIN existed before Sinai - and that this could NOT be the case if there was no law before Sinai.

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter.

Because where there is no law there can be no sin for as John points out "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still to this very day.

Sin is the transgression of the righteous requirements of the law (Love). The letter of the law was introduced to reveal the transgressions that were already committed before the letter was given:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Paul is using a human argument to say that apart from the letter of the law he felt no condemnation for sin, but when the letter of the law came, a death penalty for sin was imposed on him.

ALL are held before God as sinners - Romans 3:19,20, 23 "ALL have sinned"

Yes, Paul is saying all have sinned, including himself, and the letter of the law was introduced to convict and condemn all who have sinned:

“I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known what coveting really was, except the law had said, ‘Do not covet.’…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:7-13).

The letter of the law made "known" the sin that already existed so that man would become conscious of the sin that already existed:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." -- (Romans 3:20).

Before the letter of the law was given there was no real consciousness of sin among men, everyone was lawless, except for those few individuals who were led by God's Spirit, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and a few others, but when the letter of the law was introduced, man became conscious of sin through the death penalty of the law.

So then - still a "sin" to take God's name in vain... even for Christians.. and we all know it

"The COMMANDMENTS of God" still exist - they do not get "deleted with forgiveness" and so the result is..

"The saints KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Love fulfills the requirements of the law, therefore those who love God will not abuse His name.

False.

The entire world at the time of Noah was held to be sooo sinful the entire world was destroyed. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah so sinful - they were burned with fire.

The condemnation of the law has past and future application, just as deliverance from the law through the sacrifice of Christ has past and future application:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." -- (Romans 3:19-20).

I know this is one of your favorite scriptures, but notice what Paul is addressing: Paul is making it clear that "observing" the law is not required, because the purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin, and the law makes us conscious of sin by condemning us for sin:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath." -- (Romans 4:14-15).

The law reveals sin by bringing 'wrath' or 'condemnation' for sin:

"For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin through the condemnation of the law became utterly sinful because through the law we began to recognize the harmful nature of sin.

Christ died to deliver all men from the harmful nature of sin by rescuing all men from the condemnation of the law:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts" -- (Galatians 4:4-5).

Christ rescued all men from the condemnation of the law so that we may become sons of God through His Spirit in our hearts. Now that we are sons we are no longer to allow ourselves to become enslaved again by the law:

"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." -- (Galatians 4:9-11).

Because there "IS NO LAW against right doing" and never has been.

Obviously.

Then why are you still relying on the law, is it because you are not doing right?

You cannot show the requirements of the law written on your heart -- in the case of a law that does not exist.... obviously.

Ha....to "fulfill" the requirements of the law means to obey the original intent God required. And the original intent God required is love from the heart. Love from the heart fulfills the righteous requirement of the law:

"Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." -- (Romans 13:9-10).

Gentiles, who never had the law given to them on stone - as did Israel - STILL are convicted and may choose to accept the New Covenant "LAW written on the heart" as in fact in Acts 18:4 we see "GENTILES in the Synagogue every Sabbath".

Paul is not talking about Gentiles who accept the New Covenant and are led by the Spirit, Paul is talking about Gentiles who obey the requirements of the law naturally 'by nature':

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Paul is talking about Gentiles who obey the requirements of the law by nature, apart from the New Covenant and apart from the Old.

 

[Bob S]

The Sinai law was never meant to be the way of salvation. Moses knew how salvation is attained. He wrote of Abraham's salvation and it didn't come by observing any law. Those who think they have to observe some part of the Sinai law in order to be saved and teach it to others are living and teaching falsehood.

 

[klutedavid]

The context of Matthew 19 is being avoided to prove a false doctrine. If Jesus was teaching people to keep the law He is contradicting Himself in John 15:10.

Hello listed.

The true context of Matthew 19 is about Jesus speaking to the Jews only. If you think that the Gentiles had the written law, then you are incorrect. You quotation from John 15:10 relates the the commandments that the Father gave to the Son, not the commandments that God gave to the nation of Israel.

The text in Exodus announces to anyone who wishes to read the text, God made the covenant with Israel and not with the Gentiles.

People are law breakers not law keepers, that is the real lesson we are taught in the Old Testament. If you believe that you can keep the law, then you believe that you are not like other people.

The law is pointing you to Jesus for your salvation, the law was made for the unrighteous.

Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?

You must be under a great delusion if you honestly think, that you can achieve salvation through obedience to the law.

 

[klutedavid]

You make far far too much of that

Christ was simply pointing out how that no one was truly good, as in sinless. He was not saying give up on trying not to sin or in keeping the commandments because you aren't perfect....not by far.

We can easily strive to keep the commandments...your comment makes no sense. There is many a person before being saved that broke the commandments badly, and then stopped doing that afterward. We can strive and though not be perfect, we can be comparatively, very successful at keeping them.



How to be good? The commandments were what we were commanded not to do. Big, major, basic sins that God was so opposed to he made some rules and said not to do those things.

Then in the OT, he made an atonement system, or punishment system for the breaking of those rules he thought were bad enough to require those things. Today we have Christ instead of the old atonement system.

The commandments are still just as bad as they were, God still doesn't want us breaking them, nor does he want people twisting the simple truth off the bible, making people think they can break those rules.

These things/the truth are all so simple to see over the explanations to change the truth...that is unless we want the truth to be changed....then we can be taken in. Up to us...simple uncomplicated truth, or lies from complicated, never quit clear to the reader, long winded explanations.

Hello Kenny.

The whole purpose of the law was to drive you to the Christ. You are deeply evil just like everyone else, the only outcome of any attempt at a legal obedience is an undue self righteous opinion of oneself.

By the Grace of God we are saved, we are justified and sanctified through believing in Jesus Christ. God help the person that believes that they can be a good person through their own obedience to the law. That is the primary deception that the world stumbled over. This great deception, I am a good person, I have not murdered or stolen anything, how could God have any problem with me?

Surely after all this time, anyone trying to obey the law would realize that the law is for evil creatures. Your thought life is constantly at war with the ten commandments, you can never cleanly obey the law, that is impossible. I don't believe that you do not realize this.

The law condemned the world, yet you believe that you can reverse that proclamation by God. Too late my friend, as soon as God gave the ten commandments, the game was over for all of us.

 

[listed]

Hello listed.

The true context of Matthew 19 is about Jesus speaking to the Jews only. If you think that the Gentiles had the written law, then you are incorrect. You quotation from John 15:10 relates the the commandments that the Father gave to the Son, not the commandments that God gave to the nation of Israel.

How do you come up with these ideas about me or the Scripture? Maybe you're thinking of someone else. You're invited to quote me on the gentile issue.

AS for John 15:10 I don't see how you can come to the conclusion it's about commandments to Jesus in regard to His life. Jesus didn't give the ten commandments to Israel, much less the world. We know for a truth Jesus kept the law given to Israel. Maybe you're trying to say my claim is a person can sin and thumb their noses at God. I understand why you make the statement John 15:10's commandments of the Father aren't the law. If the ten commandments are those belonging to Moses and not God the Father the whole idea of God is a farce. John 1:17 and the contents of that Gospel aren't about the law. Jesus didn't teach the law. Jesus did teach from the law. No one can deny Jesus kept the law. A statement without proof that Jesus kept some commandments meant for only Him is a cover and a foundation to force law keeping on Christians. Jesus gave a new commandment to love not found in the law. At best all a person can say is Jesus added to the law in this regard. My Bible says no one can or has kept the law. Since this is impossible a person has to look for other purposes of the law. There're quite a few verses that plainly state purposes of the law. Sin is the primary reason for it. Galatians 3:19 says sin or transgression is the reason. Romans says no law, no punishment or correction. John and Romans both indicate the only way around this is recreation (reborn) as in John 3, Romans 6. Ephesians 2 says new man. The word new indicates not in existence before. Ephesians 4 also has a great statement about this. The law couldn't achieve this. Romans and Ephesians are clear about the Christian being a new creation.

There's nothing in any of John's writings about being required to keep the law. John makes no statement anywhere for Christians to keep the law. 1 John 3:23 is proof just like John 15:10. Even if the commandments you claim Jesus kept were some commandments not mentioned in the Scripture, Jesus said to keep His commandments, not the law. John 10 says all who came prior to Him are thieves. John 1:17 says Jesus didn't bring the law. Least you claim I say a person can sin as a life style, there's John 13:34 and Luke 6:31. How can a person be in compliance with either of those verses and violate the law (sin)? Neither verse says to keep the law. Paul doesn't give permission to practice sin or even permit occasional sin with Romans 6:15. Yet Paul says we're delivered from the law. Paul doesn't say we're delivered from the punishment demanded by the law. If he did it would mean a person could sin all they want with no consequences.

The text in Exodus announces to anyone who wishes to read the text, God made the covenant with Israel and not with the Gentiles.

Why do you say this? Is it looking for support a Christians becomes an Israeli for the cause of salvation? It does ay to me gentiles are completely left out with no hope. Ephesians 2 won't allow for this. It also doesn't say Christians possess commonwealth of or in Israel. Yo do know what commonwealth is, don't you? Romans doesn't indicate a person becomes a Jew either (Romans 2).

People are law breakers not law keepers, that is the real lesson we are taught in the Old Testament. If you believe that you can keep the law, then you believe that you are not like other people.

I can't understand any justification for the above response.

The law is pointing you to Jesus for your salvation, the law was made for the unrighteous.

True. Is the Christian righteous or not? The Christian has already passed the judgment and possess eternal life by the words of Jesus in John 5:24. The only way to pass the judgment is to be found not guilty. Judgment implies guilt mandating punishment.

Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?

You must be under a great delusion if you honestly think, that you can achieve salvation through obedience to the law.

The above 2 paragraphs are in conflict.

 

[listed]

Hello Kenny.

The whole purpose of the law was to drive you to the Christ. You are deeply evil just like everyone else, the only outcome of any attempt at a legal obedience is an undue self righteous opinion of oneself.

By the Grace of God we are saved, we are justified and sanctified through believing in Jesus Christ. God help the person that believes that they can be a good person through their own obedience to the law. That is the primary deception that the world stumbled over. This great deception, I am a good person, I have not murdered or stolen anything, how could God have any problem with me?

Surely after all this time, anyone trying to obey the law would realize that the law is for evil creatures. Your thought life is constantly at war with the ten commandments, you can never cleanly obey the law, that is impossible. I don't believe that you do not realize this.

The law condemned the world, yet you believe that you can reverse that proclamation by God. Too late my friend, as soon as God gave the ten commandments, the game was over for all of us.

Without redemption your statement is true. I've been redeemed and possess the righteousness God requires. It's the substitutionary righteousness provided for by Jesus.

 

[klutedavid]

How do you come up with these ideas about me or the Scripture? Maybe you're thinking of someone else. You're invited to quote me on the gentile issue.

AS for John 15:10 I don't see how you can come to the conclusion it's about commandments to Jesus in regard to His life. Jesus didn't give the ten commandments to Israel, much less the world. We know for a truth Jesus kept the law given to Israel. Maybe you're trying to say my claim is a person can sin and thumb their noses at God. I understand why you make the statement John 15:10's commandments of the Father aren't the law. If the ten commandments are those belonging to Moses and not God the Father the whole idea of God is a farce. John 1:17 and the contents of that Gospel aren't about the law. Jesus didn't teach the law. Jesus did teach from the law. No one can deny Jesus kept the law. A statement without proof that Jesus kept some commandments meant for only Him is a cover and a foundation to force law keeping on Christians. Jesus gave a new commandment to love not found in the law. At best all a person can say is Jesus added to the law in this regard. My Bible says no one can or has kept the law. Since this is impossible a person has to look for other purposes of the law. There're quite a few verses that plainly state purposes of the law. Sin is the primary reason for it. Galatians 3:19 says sin or transgression is the reason. Romans says no law, no punishment or correction. John and Romans both indicate the only way around this is recreation (reborn) as in John 3, Romans 6. Ephesians 2 says new man. The word new indicates not in existence before. Ephesians 4 also has a great statement about this. The law couldn't achieve this. Romans and Ephesians are clear about the Christian being a new creation.

There's nothing in any of John's writings about being required to keep the law. John makes no statement anywhere for Christians to keep the law. 1 John 3:23 is proof just like John 15:10. Even if the commandments you claim Jesus kept were some commandments not mentioned in the Scripture, Jesus said to keep His commandments, not the law. John 10 says all who came prior to Him are thieves. John 1:17 says Jesus didn't bring the law. Least you claim I say a person can sin as a life style, there's John 13:34 and Luke 6:31. How can a person be in compliance with either of those verses and violate the law (sin)? Neither verse says to keep the law. Paul doesn't give permission to practice sin or even permit occasional sin with Romans 6:15. Yet Paul says we're delivered from the law. Paul doesn't say we're delivered from the punishment demanded by the law. If he did it would mean a person could sin all they want with no consequences.Why do you say this? Is it looking for support a Christians becomes an Israeli for the cause of salvation? It does ay to me gentiles are completely left out with no hope. Ephesians 2 won't allow for this. It also doesn't say Christians possess commonwealth of or in Israel. Yo do know what commonwealth is, don't you? Romans doesn't indicate a person becomes a Jew either (Romans 2).I can't understand any justification for the above response.True. Is the Christian righteous or not? The Christian has already passed the judgment and possess eternal life by the words of Jesus in John 5:24. The only way to pass the judgment is to be found not guilty. Judgment implies guilt mandating punishment.The above 2 paragraphs are in conflict.

How do you come up with these ideas about me or the Scripture? Maybe you're thinking of someone else. You're invited to quote me on the gentile issue.

AS for John 15:10 I don't see how you can come to the conclusion it's about commandments to Jesus in regard to His life. Jesus didn't give the ten commandments to Israel, much less the world. We know for a truth Jesus kept the law given to Israel. Maybe you're trying to say my claim is a person can sin and thumb their noses at God. I understand why you make the statement John 15:10's commandments of the Father aren't the law. If the ten commandments are those belonging to Moses and not God the Father the whole idea of God is a farce. John 1:17 and the contents of that Gospel aren't about the law. Jesus didn't teach the law. Jesus did teach from the law. No one can deny Jesus kept the law. A statement without proof that Jesus kept some commandments meant for only Him is a cover and a foundation to force law keeping on Christians. Jesus gave a new commandment to love not found in the law. At best all a person can say is Jesus added to the law in this regard. My Bible says no one can or has kept the law. Since this is impossible a person has to look for other purposes of the law. There're quite a few verses that plainly state purposes of the law. Sin is the primary reason for it. Galatians 3:19 says sin or transgression is the reason. Romans says no law, no punishment or correction. John and Romans both indicate the only way around this is recreation (reborn) as in John 3, Romans 6. Ephesians 2 says new man. The word new indicates not in existence before. Ephesians 4 also has a great statement about this. The law couldn't achieve this. Romans and Ephesians are clear about the Christian being a new creation.

There's nothing in any of John's writings about being required to keep the law. John makes no statement anywhere for Christians to keep the law. 1 John 3:23 is proof just like John 15:10. Even if the commandments you claim Jesus kept were some commandments not mentioned in the Scripture, Jesus said to keep His commandments, not the law. John 10 says all who came prior to Him are thieves. John 1:17 says Jesus didn't bring the law. Least you claim I say a person can sin as a life style, there's John 13:34 and Luke 6:31. How can a person be in compliance with either of those verses and violate the law (sin)? Neither verse says to keep the law. Paul doesn't give permission to practice sin or even permit occasional sin with Romans 6:15. Yet Paul says we're delivered from the law. Paul doesn't say we're delivered from the punishment demanded by the law. If he did it would mean a person could sin all they want with no consequences.Why do you say this? Is it looking for support a Christians becomes an Israeli for the cause of salvation? It does ay to me gentiles are completely left out with no hope. Ephesians 2 won't allow for this. It also doesn't say Christians possess commonwealth of or in Israel. Yo do know what commonwealth is, don't you? Romans doesn't indicate a person becomes a Jew either (Romans 2).I can't understand any justification for the above response.True. Is the Christian righteous or not? The Christian has already passed the judgment and possess eternal life by the words of Jesus in John 5:24. The only way to pass the judgment is to be found not guilty. Judgment implies guilt mandating punishment.The above 2 paragraphs are in conflict.

Hello Listed.

Your correct, I was answering another post and selected your by mistake.

 

[BobRyan]

The Sinai law was never meant to be the way of salvation. .

This undisputed statement keeps getting reposted in thread after thread. One would think that some other post was out there claiming "I don't take God's name in vain because that is my plan of salvation instead of having to be covered by the Gospel plan of salvation".

I think your post would greatly helped by including such a quote - so we can see the problem being solved by repeating the so-far undisputed statement.

 

[Doveaman]

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai. Adam, in the garden, was commanded by the Spirit of God, he was not commanded by the letter of the law. And Adam, in the garden, disobeyed the Spirit of God, he did not disobey the letter of the law.

And we both know it.

Why do you keep saying "we both know it" even though we both disagree on it? I don't get it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

1 John 3:4 does not say SIN IS transgression "against" the LAW.

1 John 3:4 says sin is the transgression "of" the law.

Sin is disobedience to the law of the Spirit. Even we Christians sin when we disobey the law of the Spirit, but we are not condemned for sin because we are not under the law of the letter.

And, as we both know it , Satan first sinned before this earth was formed and before the letter of the law was given. Satan first sinned before the sun ruled the day and before the seventh-day law was introduced. Again, this proves Paul's point that sin existed in the world before the letter of the law was given. Satan, who existed before this earth was formed and before the letter of the law was given, is the author and father of sin.

That sin - against the LAW - condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

We do not "sin" against “the LAW”. We speak against the law and we act against the law, and we even fight against the law, but we do not "sin" against the law. We sin against God, just as Satan did before the letter of the law was given. The letter of the law was given to make us conscious of the sin committed against God by the whole world:

“For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” -- (Romans 5:13).

Sin was in the world before the letter of the law was given, but sin has no power to convict and condemn when there is no letter of law.

“All who sin without the law will also perish without the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.” -- (Romans 2:12).

We can sin under the letter of the law and we can sin without the letter of the law. The presence of sin is not dependent upon the presence of the letter of the law.

“For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.” -- Romans 4:14-15).

Where there is no letter of the law there can be no transgression of that law, and therefore no condemnation or wrath from a law that is now obsolete for those who are in Christ:

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son” -- (Romans 8:1-3).

The letter of the law was powerless to achieved God's righteous requirements because it was weakened by the sin in human nature. So the only thing the letter of the law ever achieved was to reveal the sin in human nature by condemning us for the sin in human nature

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

We make VOID the letter of the LAW by faith, and we ESTABLISH the LAW of the Spirit through faith, and the law of the Spirit is Love: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." -- (Romans 13:9-10).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

The letter of the law reveals sin, but it does not necessarily define sin since sin existed before the letter of the law was given. Satan and one-third of the angels sinned before the letter of the law was given. Sin is not defined by our disobedience to the letter, but by our disobedience to the Spirit of God:

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men." -- (Matthew 12:31).

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

It would be good for clarity if you would include the actual verses you are referring to.

In Romans 1, Paul tells us:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — His eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." -- (Romans 1:18-20).

The truth of who God is and what God does was revealed through His creation order, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1 is telling us that mankind had suppressed the truth of God as revealed through His creation order, and not as revealed through the letter of the law. The truth of God, as revealed through His creation order, was suppressed by the wickedness of men, resulting in all men becoming fools:

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools" -- (Romans 1:21-22).

After all men became fools and lost all consciousness of God's truth, God latter introduce the letter of the law through the Jews to make us conscious of our wickedness and condemnation, and to point us to Christ, our deliverer, through whom God's original truth would be restored:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." -- (Romans 3:20-23).

 

[BobRyan]

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter.

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

Paul is using a human argument to say that apart from the letter of the law he felt no condemnation for sin, but when the letter of the law came, a death penalty for sin was imposed on him.

That sin - against the LAW - condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

"I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known what coveting really was, except the law had said, ‘Do not covet.’…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:7-13).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

Before the letter of the law was given there was no real consciousness of sin among men, everyone was lawless, except for those few individuals who were led by God's Spirit

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

============================================================

But in regard to this --

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

you said ..

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

I didn't think that was the hard part. what is "not to get"???

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai. Adam, in the garden, was commanded by the Spirit of God, he was not commanded by the letter of the law.

The "letters" in the Bible are used to compose "words" - the Bible is the "Word of God" because it is authored by the Holy Spirit - who is the third person of the Godhead.

Is this cause you confusion? Why keep trying suppose division between the Holy Spirit and the Bible?

I don't see the point of it.

God "spoke" the Ten Commandments at Sinai and then WROTE the Ten on stone.

You're making a big difference between the time God spoke it - vs wrote it as if writing it puts it at war against His spoken word.

Seems a bit odd.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doveaman]

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

What exactly are you saying here?

I said the law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter, and you respond by saying "There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture".

How is the Holy Spirit being pitted against scripture?

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

There you go again putting your own spin on scripture.

We do not transgress "against" the law, we transgress against God.

We do not sin against the law, we sin against God.

The law reveals our transgression/sin against God.

That sin - against the LAW

- condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

You are correct, the letter of the law condemns the whole world because of our inability to obey it. This is why the letter of the law had to be made obsolete, because it condemns us all. Those who are now in Christ are no longer under any condemnation of the letter or under any obligation to the letter:

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free...You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ...But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law...But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5).

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

Do we then make void the righteous requirement of the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the righteous requirement of the LAW. And the righteous requirement of the LAW is Love: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." -- (Romans 13:9-10).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

Indeed not - the letter of the law reveals the sin that was already in the world before the letter of the law was given:

“For before the law was given, sin was in the world.” -- (Romans 5:13). "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." -- (Romans 3:20).

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

I already responded to this copy-paste in my previous post.

But in regard to this --

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

More copy-paste.

The "letters" in the Bible are used to compose "words"

The letters in the Bible, which includes historical accounts, is not the same as the letters of the law written on stone. Big difference.

The letters on stone were written on stone perhaps indicating the hardheartedness of those who try to obey those stone-letters.

the Bible is the "Word of God" because it is authored by the Holy Spirit - who is the third person of the Godhead.

And the Holy Spirit authored the Bible to also say: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

Is this cause you confusion? Why keep trying suppose division between the Holy Spirit and the Bible?

The confusion lies with you, since you are the one who is supposing a division by your insistence that Christians must obey an obsolete law that brought death.

I don't see the point of it.

Nor do I.

God "spoke" the Ten Commandments at Sinai and then WROTE the Ten on stone.

God also "spoke" and WROTE: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter...for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

You're making a big difference between the time God spoke it - vs wrote it as if writing it puts it at war against His spoken word.

No, I am making a big difference between the old covenant and the new covenant, between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law, between the ministry that brought death and the ministry that brings life, between a law that is eternal and a law that is obsolete:

"By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete" -- (Hebrews 8:13).

Seems a bit odd.

And therein lies your confusion.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Sabbath is created for us , not for God ( Mark 2:27-28) .

Actually God will work on Sabbath , because he need to work another week for second bride , because like Jacob , he got one bride but not the one he wants

God also worked on sabbath during battle of Jericho i believe.