God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

[1stcenturylady]

I'm not arguing. I'm explaining.

Still don't get it. Are we on the same page or worlds apart?

 

[Doveaman]

Still don't get it. Are we on the same page or worlds apart?

I think we are on the same page, but just a few houses apart.

If I'm not mistaken, it is your view that the "cup" representing Christ's blood is the sign of the New Covenant: "In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." -- (1 Corinthians 11:25).

However, it is my view that the Sabbath-rest in Christ is the sign of the New Covenant: "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

The Sabbath as a sign of the lasting covenant between God and Israel was to last forever.

The Church is now the true Israel, and the Sabbath sign of the lasting covenant remains forever through its fulfillment in the body of Christ:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children…Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham…So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith " -- (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:7-18).

The New Covenant is established on the blood of Christ, and we enter God's Sabbath-rest when we enter the New Covenant, so we are not that far apart.

 

[Doveaman]

Indeed the "Sabbath was made for mankind"

That’s correct, the Sabbath was made for Man, and not made for God.

God does not observe a weekly seventh-day rest. The Sabbath-day law did not exists before time began (before the earth was formed), and the Sabbath-day law will not exists after the earth pass away: "There will be no more night there; and they will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun" -- (Revelation 22:5). Therefore, the Sabbath-day law cannot be included in God’s divine law which existed before time began.

Christians are called to live by God’s divine law, not the letter of the law, but the divine law that existed before time began. The divine law that existed before time began is the Spirit of the law; the law that can only be observed through God’s Spirit in our hearts.

The letter of the law was observed by Man, but the Spirit of the law is observed by God. The Spirit of the law is the divine law that God Himself (Father and Son) lived by before time began. This is why the Spirit of the law can only be observed through the Spirit of God in our hearts. It is because only God by His Spirit in us can observe His divine law through us.

Man himself cannot observe the Spirit of God’s divine law, and this is why God through His Spirit in us must observe His divine law for us. The letter of the law was indeed made for Man, but Man has now become dead to the litter of the law so that God can now live through Man in the Spirit of His divine law:

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” -- (Galatians 2:19-20).

"Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good purpose." -- (Philippians 2:12-13).

“God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like Him.” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think we are on the same page, but just a few houses apart.

If I'm not mistaken, it is your view that the "cup" representing Christ's blood is the sign of the New Covenant: "In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." -- (1 Corinthians 11:25).

However, it is my view that the Sabbath-rest in Christ is the sign of the New Covenant: "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

The Sabbath as a sign of the lasting covenant between God and Israel was to last forever.

The Church is now the true Israel, and the Sabbath sign of the lasting covenant remains forever through its fulfillment in the body of Christ:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children…Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham…So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith " -- (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:7-18).

The New Covenant is established on the blood of Christ, and we enter God's Sabbath-rest when we enter the New Covenant, so we are not that far apart.

So are you a Sabbath (Saturday) keeper?

 

[bloodygrace]

That’s correct, the Sabbath was made for Man, and not made for God.

God does not observe a weekly seventh-day rest. The Sabbath-day law did not exists before time began (before the earth was formed), and the Sabbath-day law will not exists after the earth pass away: "There will be no more night; and they will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun" -- (Revelation 22:5). Therefore, the Sabbath-day law cannot be included in God’s divine law which existed before time began.

Christians are called to live by God’s divine law, not the letter of the law, but the divine law that existed before time began. The divine law that existed before time began is the Spirit of the law; the law that can only be observed through God’s Spirit in our hearts.

The letter of the law was observed by Man, but the Spirit of the law is observed by God. The Spirit of the law is the divine law that God Himself (Father and Son) lived by before time began. This is why the Spirit of the law can only be observed through the Spirit of God in our hearts. It is because only God by His Spirit in us can observe His divine law through us.

Man himself cannot observe the Spirit of God’s divine law, and this is why God through His Spirit in us must observe His divine law for us. The letter of the law was indeed made for Man, but Man has now become dead to the litter of the law so that God can now live through Man in the Spirit of His divine law:

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” -- (Galatians 2:19-20).

"Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." -- (Philippians 2:12-13).

“God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like Him.” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

Amen.

 

[Doveaman]

So are you a Sabbath (Saturday) keeper?

What??

No, I am a Sabbath (in Christ) keeper.

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.”.."Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink…or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29, Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[Doveaman]

"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) thy GOD" Exodus 20:8-11
"The Sabbath.. the Holy day of the LORD (YHWH)" Isaiah 58:13.

God only rested on the seventh day of creation week. He did not rest every seventh day of every week.

The weekly Sabbath days were just memorial days, they were not the actual seventh day on which God rested.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Jesus also said, “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in Me, and I in him.” -- (John 6:56).

Have you eaten Christ’s flesh and drank His blood lately? Because if you haven’t, you are not a Christian.

My point is that you interpret God's word based on its literal application under the Old Covenant, instead of interpreting God's word based on its true fulfillment in Christ under the New Covenant:

“For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; He entered heaven itself…For the law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves.” -- (Hebrews 8, 9, 10).

The Old Covenant with its rituals and laws was just a copy and shadow of the realty fulfilled in Christ under the New Covenant. A shadow is only a reflection that mimics the reality, but not the reality itself:

"For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the realities themselves." -- (Hebrews 10:1).

Circumcision, animal sacrifice and Sabbath-day rest were all shadows reflecting the realities that are now fulfilled in Christ. Insisting on observing a Sabbath-day rest is nothing more than chasing shadows:

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink…or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” -- (Colossians 2:16-17).

I will be sticking with the Bible on this one.

Two people with apposing views can't be both sticking with the Bible.

I’m still waiting for your answer to this question:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

If, as Paul said, the Gentiles never had the letter of the law, then how are they able to fulfill the requirements of the law?

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

Paul is saying we can be obeying the letter of the law and still be transgressing the righteous requirements of the law, and we can fulfill the righteous requirements of the law without obeying the letter of the law.

The correct answer to this perplexing question will open your eyes to the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

God only rested on the seventh day of creation week. He did not rest every seventh day of every week.

Jesus was not raised from the dead every week.

God said:
Exodus 20
8 “Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Your argument is "with the text".

God points to the Genesis 2 details 'alone' to establish the binding nature of the command.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it (made it holy), because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Your argument is "with the text".

The weekly Sabbath is a memorial of the FIRST Sabbath - made by God in Genesis 2 and participated in - by Adam and Eve on the day after they were created. (their second day of life)

Have you eaten Christ’s flesh and drank His blood lately? Because if you haven’t, you are not a Christian.

Exodus 16 "TOMORROW is the Sabbath" -- a literal day.
And those who ignored the word of God -- would be fasting every Saturday since no manna fell.

Yep -- it was literal.

Obviously.

My point is that you interpret God's word based on its literal application

Because "Bible details matter"

 

[bloodygrace]

What??

No, I am a Sabbath (in Christ) keeper.

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.”.."Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink…or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29, Colossians 2:16-17).

Amen. The weekly Sabbath pointed forward to the gospel and the rest from sin that Christ provides for believers. No day keeping required.

 

[Doveaman]

Jesus was not raised from the dead every week.

Is there supposed to be a point you are making here?

Jesus died once for all and He was raised once for all. God's Sabbath-rest was also once for all.

God said:

Exodus 20
8 “Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Your argument is "with the text".

Actually, my argument is for the text.

The 4th commandment not only required a seventh day rest, but it also required six days of work.: “Six days you shall labor and do all your work” -- (Exodus 20:9).

If I chose to work five days a week am I violating the 4th commandment?

Your literal application of the 4th commandment doesn’t do well for the unemployed.

God points to the Genesis 2 details 'alone' to establish the binding nature of the command.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it (made it holy), because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Your argument is "with the text".

Your argument is “against the text”.

"Blessed" and "sanctified" doesn’t make it binding forever:

"The tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to Me in the priest's office." -- (Exodus 29:43-44).

The Old Covenant tabernacle was sanctified, the alter was sanctified, Aron and his sons were sanctified, the seventh day was sanctified, but sanctification does not mean binding forever. Even the natural descendants of Israel were sanctified as God's holy people. But not anymore.

And here is the part you keep missing:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children…In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children…Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham…So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith " -- (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:7-18).

The natural descendants of Israel now find their true fulfillment through faith in Christ. The body of Christ is now the reality of God’s true people, the true Israel. And the natural Sabbath day also find its true fulfillment through faith in Christ. Our rest in the Christ through faith is now the reality of God’s true Sabbath rest:

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.”.."Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink…or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29, Colossians 2:16-17).

You would do well to stop chasing shadows, BobRyan, because the reality of God’s true Sabbath rest is found only in Christ.

The weekly Sabbath is a memorial of the FIRST Sabbath - made by God in Genesis 2 and participated in - by Adam and Eve on the day after they were created. (their second day of life)

You are reading you own misconceived conclusions into the text.

The FIRST Sabbath occurred when God finished His works and permanently ceased from His works, period.

The FIRST Sabbath was a permanent ceasing from works, and not merely a 24 hour day of rest. The 24 hour day of rest was later established temporarily as a memorial day to God’s permanent ceasing from His works. It is God’s permanent ceasing from His works that is the true and lasting Sabbath rest, and not merely a 24 hour memorial day.

The true Israel (the body of Christ) are now called to enter the true and lasting Sabbath rest: “Now we who have believed do enter that rest, just as God has said…although His works were finished since the creation of the world…There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His.” -- (Hebrews 4:3-10).

The reality of God's Sabbath rest is a permanent state of rest for "we who have believed" through faith, and is not merely a temporary day of rest.

When we enter God Sabbath rest we permanently cease from our own works, just as God permanently ceased from His. When we enter God Sabbath rest we permanently cease, through faith in God, from our fleshly works of human nature, just as God permanently ceased, through faith in Himself, from His physical works of creation.

Exodus 16 "TOMORROW is the Sabbath" -- a literal day.

And those who ignored the word of God -- would be fasting every Saturday since no manna fell.

Yep -- it was literal.

Obviously.

I hope you never have to take sick leave from work, because then you would be violating the 4th commandment to work six days: “Six days you shall labor and do all your work” -- (Exodus 20:9).

Yep -- it was literal.

Obviously.

 

[Doveaman]

1. Law written on their hearts - Romans 2
2. Romans 1 - shows that they know the judgment of God is upon them.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
..
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

You are just copy and pasting scriptures without offering any meaningful explanation.

Christ said - "If you were blind you would have no sin... but you say "we see"..."

Christians cannot use pagans that have no access to the Bible as their "high standard for morals and light"

Is this your answer to my original question?

Ok but Paul specifically says they were not obeying the law. Says it again in Galatians 6.

Paul does not say that in Romans 2

Actually, Paul did say in Romans 2 that the Gentiles were obeying the requirements of the law from their heats:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Paul is saying that Gentiles obey the requirements of the law from their hearts, even though they do not have the law.

How?

The answer is simple.

There are two applications of the law:
The old application and the new.
The letter of the law and the love of the Spirit.
The shadow and the reality.
The written code and the righteous requirements.

The old application of the law has now been replaced by the new, and the new reality of God‘s law is the love that is required by the Spirit. This is why Gentiles, who do not have the letter of the law, are able to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law, because love is the fulfillment of the law:

"Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” -- (Romans 13:9-10).

INSTEAD he says this --

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

However it is certainly likely that the pagans and the atheists -- at least of some stripe - do not "know" it is wrong/sin to take God's name in vain - the God of the Christians name in vain.

But how much darkness would you have to appeal to - to get to that level of justification for taking God's name in vain??

I hope you understood the explanation you just gave, because I certainly didn't.

I the verses you just quoted, Paul is saying that uncircumcised Gentiles who obey the righteous requirements of the law (love) will put to shame those who have the letter of the law but do not obey the righteous requirements of the law:

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

 

[Kenny'sID]

.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes it does.
The laws regarding the Levitical priesthood includes the 10 commandments.

“If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law)” -- (Hebrews 7:11).

The entire old covenant law, which included the 10 Commandments, was administered through the Levitical priesthood, just as the new covenant of faith is administered through the new priesthood of Christ.

And in Hebrews 7 we are told: “For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law…For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah…One who has become a priest, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life…For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because it was weak and useless, for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God...by so much more Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.” -- (Hebrews 7:12-22).

The entire old covenant that was based on the 10 commandments has been annulled. Hebrews 9 goes on to give us the details involved in the administration of the Levitical priesthood, which has been annulled:

“Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary…Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” -- (Hebrews 9:1-4).

The stone tablets of the old covenant law, which contained the 10 Commandments, were included in the administration of the Levitical priesthood. And as we are told in Hebrews 7: “For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law” -- (Hebrews 7:12).

In addition we are told in Hebrews 8: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt…By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete” -- (Hebrews 8:7-13).

God said the new covenant that is based on faith “will not be like” the old covenant that was based on the 10 Commandments. The old covenant based on the 10 Commandments has now been made obsolete.
Our understanding of the "commandments" of Christ must be established on the biblical premise that the 10 Commandments are the laws of the old covenant and the old covenant has been made obsolete. Therefore, Christ cannot be encouraging obedience to obsolete laws:

"He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." -- (Deuteronomy 4:13).

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter...for the letter kills..the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone"-- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8)

"By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete” -- (Hebrews 8:13).

That's the biblical premise (the 10 Commandment law is obsolete), and our understanding of Christ's "commandments" must begin on that premise.
Honor your father and mother is not the first commandment in the TEN.
The only commandments that matter are the ones based on God's eternal love, and not based on an obsolete, old covenant law.

As I said before, Paul in Ephesians 6:2-3 is not encouraging old covenant law keeping. Paul is simply emphasizing the importance of honoring our parents out of love, which is the spiritual intent of the old covenant law. We honor our parents because we love them. This is exactly how Gentiles honor their parents, even though Gentiles do not have the old covenant law of 10 Commandments:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).
Writing the same letter of the law on our hearts would result in instant death, because the letter of the law was written with a hammer and chisel.
Love is not merely a summary of the law; love is the fulfillment of the law. There’s a difference.

"Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” -- (Romans 13:9-10).

The fulfillment the law is not obedience to the letter, it is obedience to the spiritual intent of the law. The spiritual intent of the law is love. We rely on the love of the Holy Spirit, and we obey the love of the Holy Spirit. All our actions are governed by the love of the Holy Spirit:

“And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love, whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like Him.” -- (1 John 4:16-17).
Yes, Jesus said TWO great commandments – not ten. (in Matthew 22)
And also what He calls the greatest -- is not even in the list you are focused on.

You will also noticed that the TWO commandments are both commands to love. So the TWO commandments are really just ONE commandment to love. All our actions are in obedience to the ONE love that we express to all:

"A new commandment I give you: Love one another; as I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another." -- (John 13:34-35).
Taking God’s name in vein is showing no regard for who God is or for what God does. Our high regard for God is based on love. We worship God because He first loved us and because we now love Him:

“There is no fear in love; but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us.” -- (1 John 4:118-19).

The letter of the law was observed by the Jews based on the fear of punishment, and not based on love:

“Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” -- (Romans 7:9-11).

The purpose of letter of the law was to expose the danger of sin. The law exposes the danger of sin by convicting us of sin and by condemning us for sin. This is why Paul said the law is good. The letter of the law is good, not because it achieves righteousness, but to the extent that it exposes the danger of sin:

“So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.” -- (Romans 7:12-13).
But your answer has no relation to my question.
You keep adding words and numbers to the scriptures.
Where does Paul mention "scripture" in the verses I quoted below:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Paul does not say the Gentiles do not have "scripture", He says they do not have the law. Paul is discussing the old covenant law given through Moses.

So my question to you still remains:

How are Gentiles able to fulfill the requirements of the old covenant law, even though they never received the old covenant law?
Christ said in Mathew 5:

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.” -- (Matthew 5:21-22).

The old covenant law was a command to not commit the act of murder.
The new covenant law is a command to show compassion and mercy.

The two laws are not the same.

The old command focuses on external behavior.
The new command focuses on the internal love of the heart.

The old command encourages obedience to the letter.
The new command encourages obedience to the love of the Spirit.

We can avoid committing murder even if we have no love.
But if we have love we will not commit murder.

In other words, we can obey the letter of the law and still violate God’s love, but if we obey God’s love we will not commit murder.

Our choice to not commit murder is not in obedience to the letter, but in obedience to God’s love (compassion and mercy).
Yes, we ESTABLISH the LAW, not in letter, but in Spirit, by being obedient to God’s love (compassion and mercy).
True.

“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.” -- (1 John 3:23).
Yes, those who love God will not violate His love by taking His name in vain.
The LAW on stone cannot be written on our hearts. It is the Spirit of the Law that is written on our hearts. The Law on stone is written in letters. The Spirit of the Law is written in Love (compassion and mercy).
Yes, Moses and Elijah lived by the Spirit of God’s love.
Those folks do not add any value to your invalid claims.
You keep seeing 10 Commandment where the Bible does not say 10 Commandments. You are seeing 10 Commandments in Genesis 26, not because they are there, but because you want them to be there. It's just an illusion caused by delusion. I hope you get over it soon.

I understand that it *has* to be a chore, but still...amazing how much wordiness it takes to explain away 1 of the commandments that Christ himself told us to keep...something that's been pointed out to the OP more than once. Christs words are direct and to the point in Mathew 19:17..."Keep the commandments" while not a single thing the OP has posted says directly, we don't have to keep them or this particular one. That fact, my friends, should be paid close attention to..very close.

Let me explain how this is done, it's a lot like how they explain evolution, they have tons of evidence, but just as these verses that are quoited, not a single one does away with a single commandment...not one. However, the poster post so many of them, it appears he must have a point, when in reality, a lot of nothing does not make a single something.

I'd also like to point out the way the OP insist on quoting the following and the version he chooses to use, that makes it easier to get what he wants from the verse, when the KJV doesn't make it easy at all, and likely says something completely different. Just one more example of the tricks being used here to slip a commandment out right from under your nose, and attempt to make you believe it's just fine. And sure, there is one that would like very much to see you not keep the commandments, but it's should not be any of you.

Colossians 2:16-17 New International Version (as the OP posts it)

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ

Colossians 2:16-17 King James Bible

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

Before I go further with explanation that may or may not be needed at this pint, I would ask the OP/Doveaman to tell us what he feels the "reality" part if the first quote of the verse, or the NIV version means? Is that opposed to something *not* being real, and if so, exactly what is not real? Or if that is not the case, what exactly do you think that verse is saying to help your case?

And thanks in advance for clarifying that for me.

 

[klutedavid]

Nothing in that quote says it is no longer sin to worship false gods, or dishonor parents , or take God's name in vain.

And we all know it!!

No amount of spin-doctoring is going to change the fact - and we both know it to be true.

In fact even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

We have Paul going out of his way to drag the TEN commandments into the discussion in Eph 6:2 - just to make it soooo obvious no Bible student can miss it.

Certainly your own pro-Sunday scholars did not miss that detail.

the same Law written on stone - is written on the tablets of the human heart - under the NEW Covenant.

Hello Bob.

You constantly teach the written ten commandments as the law written on the heart.

If this is the case Bob, then where is the sin of sorcery and witchcraft?

These two sins are not mentioned in the ten written commandments.

Students of the Bible will notice both sorcery and witchcraft are mentioned in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

Galatians 5:20
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Why do you omit Deuteronomy 18:10?

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

You constantly teach the written ten commandments as the law written on the heart.

It is included in the moral law of God written on the heart.

So also do EVEN your own pro-Sunday scholars teach this. A few examples being --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
=========================================

When Bible details are so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.. well.. it "just does not GET any easier than this".

No need to "get stuck on the easy part".

If this is the case Bob, then where is the sin of sorcery and witchcraft?

?Where is the sin?? -- false gods maybe ?? just a thought.

Or do you mean that if the TEN Commandments are included then certainly commands against "sorcery and witchcraft" -- surely must be "excluded".

Do we really think that those pro-sunday scholars would "go for that"??

If the argument is not even compelling to the pro-sunday groups - how in the world can it work with those who refuse to edit the Bible commandments at all??

(Your post appears to be on the subject of the "Ten" Commandments as the moral law of God) will add it.

I find your logic "illusive".

 

[Aseyesee]

I don't think it represented anything but what the bible clearly states.

We can always find a way and turn whatever were want into whatever we want, but in this case, I have no good reason to believe the Sabbath is now anything more or less than a commandment by God to rest 1 day a week, that came about for reasons you mentioned...God rested after his work and wanted us to as well.

He wanted that because he simply thought it would be good for us to rest from physical labor once a week, as well as dwell on him. Made perfect sense then and still does.

What you are saying here is not an uncommon teaching, but it reminds me of a creed I once heard that goes into a long winded explanation that sounded good to many, but in the end, all it did was turn a simple and obvious truth into something else.

Have you read the book of Hebrews yet?

 

[listed]

Jesus was not raised from the dead every week.

God said:
Exodus 20
8 “Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

God didn't return to creating. So the same argument you make for Jesus being raised from the dead applies here.

Your argument is "with the text".

Untrue.

God points to the Genesis 2 details 'alone' to establish the binding nature of the command.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it (made it holy), because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Your argument is "with the text".

The weekly Sabbath is a memorial of the FIRST Sabbath - made by God in Genesis 2 and participated in - by Adam and Eve on the day after they were created. (their second day of life)

No because there is no first sabbath in Genesis.

 

[listed]

I understand that it *has* to be a chore, but still...amazing how much wordiness it takes to explain away 1 of the commandments that Christ himself told us to keep...something that's been pointed out to the OP more than once. Christs words are direct and to the point in Mathew 19:17..."Keep the commandments" while not a single thing the OP has posted says directly, we don't have to keep them or this particular one. That fact, my friends, should be paid close attention to..very close.

Let me explain how this is done, it's a lot like how they explain evolution, they have tons of evidence, but just as these verses that are quoited, not a single one does away with a single commandment...not one. However, the poster post so many of them, it appears he must have a point, when in reality, a lot of nothing does not make a single something.

I'd also like to point out the way the OP insist on quoting the following and the version he chooses to use, that makes it easier to get what he wants from the verse, when the KJV doesn't make it easy at all, and likely says something completely different. Just one more example of the tricks being used here to slip a commandment out right from under your nose, and attempt to make you believe it's just fine. And sure, there is one that would like very much to see you not keep the commandments, but it's should not be any of you.

Colossians 2:16-17 New International Version (as the OP posts it)

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ

Colossians 2:16-17 King James Bible

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

Before I go further with explanation that may or may not be needed at this pint, I would ask the OP/Doveaman to tell us what he feels the "reality" part if the first quote of the verse, or the NIV version means? Is that opposed to something *not* being real, and if so, exactly what is not real? Or if that is not the case, what exactly do you think that verse is saying to help your case?

And thanks in advance for clarifying that for me.

Simple answers don't get the job done because people refuse to believe. Long answers don't do any better.

 

[Doveaman]

I understand that it *has* to be a chore, but still...amazing how much wordiness it takes to explain away 1 of the commandments that Christ himself told us to keep...

The Apostle Paul wrote many books on the subject.

something that's been pointed out to the OP more than once.

Are you worried the OP might persuade others, just as Paul did?

Christs words are direct and to the point in Mathew 19:17..."Keep the commandments" while not a single thing the OP has posted says directly, we don't have to keep them or this particular one. That fact, my friends, should be paid close attention to..very close.

You obviously haven't been paying close attention, because it is my argument that God's Sabbath-rest still remains: "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His." -- (Hebrews 4:9-10).

But God's Sabbath-rest remains through its spiritual fulfillment in the body of Christ: “Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

Let me explain how this is done, it's a lot like how they explain evolution, they have tons of evidence, but just as these verses that are quoited, not a single one does away with a single commandment...not one. However, the poster post so many of them, it appears he must have a point, when in reality, a lot of nothing does not make a single something.

The many verses are necessary, since they help to confirm my argument: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" -- (2 Timothy 3:16).

I'd also like to point out the way the OP insist on quoting the following and the version he chooses to use, that makes it easier to get what he wants from the verse, when the KJV doesn't make it easy at all, and likely says something completely different. Just one more example of the tricks being used here to slip a commandment out right from under your nose, and attempt to make you believe it's just fine.

Lol

And sure, there is one that would like very much to see you not keep the commandments, but it's should not be any of you.

Colossians 2:16-17 New International Version (as the OP posts it)

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ

Colossians 2:16-17 King James Bible

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

Before I go further with explanation that may or may not be needed at this pint, I would ask the OP/Doveaman to tell us what he feels the "reality" part if the first quote of the verse, or the NIV version means? Is that opposed to something *not* being real, and if so, exactly what is not real? Or if that is not the case, what exactly do you think that verse is saying to help your case?

And thanks in advance for clarifying that for me.

I'll try to keep my explanation as simple as possible using the same KJV:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." -- (Colossians 2:16-17).

Paul is making the distinction between the body and the shadow.

To use a human argument, the human shadow is a reflection of the human body. The human shadow is not the reality, it's only a reflection of the reality. It is the human body that is the reality. It's that simple.

The Sabbath-day rest was only a shadow that reflected the spiritual body of Christ. The Sabbath-day rest was not the reality, it was only a reflection of the reality. It is the spiritual body of Christ that is the reality. It's that simple.

The Sabbath-day rest now find its true fulfillment in reality through the spiritual body of Christ (the Church): “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest...and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

 

[Doveaman]

1. Law written on their hearts - Romans 2
2. Romans 1 - shows that they know the judgment of God is upon them.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
..

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

=====================

Christ said - "If you were blind you would have no sin... but you say "we see"..."

Christians cannot use pagans that have no access to the Bible as their "high standard for morals and light"

It is true that instead of "re-typing the text letter by letter" to get it included as the obvious answer to your question - I use ctl-c and ctl-v to copy paste the very same text I would be typing letter-by-letter. (Surely the "process being less labor intensive" to get the answer posted is not your complaint -- is it???)

I don't mind you copy and pasting, just as long as you offer a meaningful explanation of what you are copy and pasting.

Obviously yes since BOTH texts explicitly point to gentiles knowing about the LAW of God -
Actually, Paul did say in Romans 2 that the Gentiles were obeying the requirements of the law from their heats:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Paul is not saying the Gentiles knew about God's law. That's just your spin. Paul is saying the opposite. He is saying the Gentiles did not know about God's law. That was the whole point of Paul's argument. The Gentiles were able to fulfill the requirements of the law despite not having the law as the Jews did:

“The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

It is your argument that the letter of the law is now written in our hearts, but it is Paul's argument that the Gentiles did not have the letter of the law, period.

Holy Spirit... New Covenant "I will write my LAW on the heart".

And Romans 2 points this out as already quoted.

Romans 2 - INSTEAD he says this --

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The answer is simple. We see them "every Sabbath in the synagogues" both Jews and gentiles in Acts 18:4 - hearing GOSPEL preaching.

Romans 2 does not tell us God wrote the letter of the law in our hearts. That is just your personal conclusion, which is flawed. Paul is telling us that the Gentles did not have the letter of the law but were still able to fulfill the requirements of the law. This fact shows that fulfilling the requirements of the law is not dependent on our obedience to the letter, no matter where that letter is written.

I hope you can point to where the confusion could possibly exist.

The confusion exists in your explanation of Romans 2:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

Paul tells us the Gentiles did not have the letter of the law, period. But you are contradicting Paul by telling us that the Gentiles had the latter of the law written in their hearts.

It was not the letter of the law that was written in the hearts of Gentiles, it was the "requirements" of the law that was written in their hearts:

"they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

It is the "requirements" that are written, not the "letter". Big difference.

The answer between these gentiles in Acts 18:4 and the Jews in Acts 18:4 is found in Romans 3.

Romans 3
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Paul accounts the JEWS with having the scriptures , the Word of God, the Commandments of God - the written text given to them as the nation-church-evangelists charged with world wide evangelism to the gentiles.

Which confirms Paul's point in Romans 2, that the Gentiles did not have God's law, period.