Men with long hair, woman with no head covering

[AarontheStudent]

Good grief.

Jews will always cover their heads to pray; men and women, as a sign of their obedience to God. Clearly if nailed to a cross there will be an exception, but that does not disprove the general rule.

Historically inaccurate. Paul was a Pharisee. THEY covered their heads. The Essenes are believed to have prayed in their birthday suit when they practiced baptism, and Jesus was likely baptised by an Essene. And he probably prayed when he was baptized.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Historically inaccurate. Paul was a Pharisee. THEY covered their heads. The Essenes are believed to have prayed in their birthday suit when they practiced baptism, and Jesus was likely baptised by an Essene. And he probably prayed when he was baptized.

Was John the Baptist an Essene?

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm not arguing I'm asking you to provide biblical evidence of head covering.

If you don't want to use the bible, use historical account.

If you don't at all, I'll research it.

My statement here is that I seek understanding and teaching.

Jewish people cover their heads to pray. The Lord was a Jew, and therefore it is a safe assumption to say that he covered his head to pray. The Bible doesn't say so because it doesn't need to; everyone else did pretty much the same. The Pharisees were quick enough to criticise him for eating and drinking with sinners; they would certainly have mentioned if he prayed when inappropriately dressed.

 

[Catherineanne]

Historically inaccurate. Paul was a Pharisee. THEY covered their heads. The Essenes are believed to have prayed in their birthday suit when they practiced baptism, and Jesus was likely baptised by an Essene. And he probably prayed when he was baptized.

Good grief.

Jesus was crucified and baptised naked therefore Jews do not always pray covered? Really? Is that your argument?

 

[Catherineanne]

Was John the Baptist an Essene?

He may have been. There is no real evidence either way and we can't really expect any.

The inference is based on his not drinking alcohol and living an ascetic life in the desert.

The Lord may have begun as a disciple of John, although the Gospels are a bit cagey about this. But the Lord was not an Essene; he had no problem drinking alcohol.

 

[AarontheStudent]

Was John the Baptist an Essene?

Many scholars seem to think so, anyway.

Jewish people cover their heads to pray. The Lord was a Jew, and therefore it is a safe assumption to say that he covered his head to pray. The Bible doesn't say so because it doesn't need to; everyone else did pretty much the same. The Pharisees were quick enough to criticise him for eating and drinking with sinners; they would certainly have mentioned if he prayed when inappropriately dressed.

A few hundred years later the Talmud would say head veiling was only a custom and not required.

 

[Catherineanne]

A few hundred years later the Talmud would say head veiling was only a custom and not required.

Did I say it was required? I said they did it (and indeed still do).

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Jewish people cover their heads to pray. The Lord was a Jew, and therefore it is a safe assumption to say that he covered his head to pray. The Bible doesn't say so because it doesn't need to; everyone else did pretty much the same. The Pharisees were quick enough to criticise him for eating and drinking with sinners; they would certainly have mentioned if he prayed when inappropriately dressed.

Mentioned in the testimony written by Holy Spirit filled men.

Jesus is Truth and the bible testifies to the Truth.

Israel started with Jacob through His father Abraham and the covenant of God with him.

Were head coverings of the mosaic law or was it oral tradition?

The captivity in Babylon changed things.

The Jews of today are Talmud Jews and not necessarily mosaic (Torah).

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Many scholars seem to think so, anyway.

Were they gnostic, the Essenes?

 

[Sanoy]

Here is the thing with the hair. In Pauls day, the science of the time believed that hair was hollow and would actually suck up the "procreative fluid". So if you were a man and had long hair it would make it hard to produce off spring. Consequently a woman with long hair would become impregnated more easily because of the whole hair sucking thing. I know that is absolutely bizarre sounding but we actually have some of those science texts. So that is why he refers to nature and why men shouldn't have long hair. So it's not something to worry about today.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Here is the thing with the hair. In Pauls day, the science of the time believed that hair was hollow and would actually suck up the "procreative fluid". So if you were a man and had long hair it would make it hard to produce off spring. Consequently a woman with long hair would become impregnated more easily because of the whole hair sucking thing. I know that is absolutely bizarre sounding but we actually have some of those science texts. So that is why he refers to nature and why men shouldn't have long hair. So it's not something to worry about today.

Nice explanation re the angels and woman.

That didn't cross my mind, but clicked when you explained.

Thanks.

It opens up more question however, but not for this thread.

 

[Norbert L]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16

I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?

Is "makeup" worldly?

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.

I highly recommend viewing this video by Dr. Michael Heiser. He talks about a paper that was recently published by another Christian scholar on this exact subject mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:3-16. If you want to avoid the chit chat at the beginning, he begins the topic at around the 7 minute mark.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16

I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?

Is "makeup" worldly?

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.

These verses are and aren't talking about hair. While hair is mentioned, I am not convinced anymore that this is where the "weight" is being placed. Just start at verse 3, "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." The head of a man is Christ Himself, the head of Christ is God, and the head of woman is man.... so if you are literally talking covering here, it is a symbolic picture of the fact of what I just said. So, if a man has his head covered when he prays or prophesies (has an authority over him that is outside of Christ) then he dishonors his head (Christ). This chapter, predominately, is about authority.

 

[Ken Rank]

Here is the thing with the hair. In Pauls day, the science of the time believed that hair was hollow and would actually suck up the "procreative fluid". So if you were a man and had long hair it would make it hard to produce off spring. Consequently a woman with long hair would become impregnated more easily because of the whole hair sucking thing. I know that is absolutely bizarre sounding but we actually have some of those science texts. So that is why he refers to nature and why men shouldn't have long hair. So it's not something to worry about today.

I have never heard the "sucking up" of procreative fluid. What I have heard is that angels were believed to have taken human woman and from their sexual union came the giants. This is more than inferred in Genesis 6 and outright stated in Enoch and other places. The head covering "because of the angels" shows THEM (the angels) that the women with the head covering had a authority over them and they were not to be touched. As for "authority," see my post above this one.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

These verses are and aren't talking about hair. While hair is mentioned, I am not convinced anymore that this is where the "weight" is being placed. Just start at verse 3, "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." The head of a man is Christ Himself, the head of Christ is God, and the head of woman is man.... so if you are literally talking covering here, it is a symbolic picture of the fact of what I just said. So, if a man has his head covered when he prays or prophesies (has an authority over him that is outside of Christ) then he dishonors his head (Christ). This chapter, predominately, is about authority.

Thanks brother,

Nice explanation.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

I highly recommend viewing this video by Dr. Michael Heiser. He talks about a paper that was recently published by another Christian scholar on this exact subject mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:3-16. If you want to avoid the chit chat at the beginning, he begins the topic at around the 7 minute mark.

Thank you brother,

Will give it a watch.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

i'll just say that this is another one of those topics about scripture where the obvious is denied in light of cultural preference.

 

[Ken Rank]

i'll just say that this is another one of those topics about scripture where the obvious is denied in light of cultural preference.

I would like to know what you mean by that. Some believe that Paul is speaking about Jews covering their heads with kippot. The problem with that idea is that there were no kippot at that time... in fact, it would be 200 years after Paul when Jews would begin to cover their heads. Some believe, and I would be one of them, that the kippot was added as a reaction to Christianity specifically to 1 Cor. 11. If Paul says don't cover your head, then darn if we won't cover our heads.

There is a LOT of reactionary theology between Jews and Christians wanting to distance themselves from each other.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,
1 Corinthians 11:3-16
I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.
Regarding men with long hair and nature.
Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.
Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.
Many thanks brethren.

Hello I'm_Sorry,
I posted on this last year. What I said may? be of interest/help to you?
I Corinthians 11--female head covering post#19
It is important to understand that Paul in this passage is not teaching about hair length or makeup or appearance as such. His concern is that in public worship and prayer women should have their heads covered and men should have them uncovered. It is a visual statement about God's ordering of his creation. The, 'it's only cultural' view does not hold up in the light of what Paul clearly says in this passage.
Go well, go wisely,
><>

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I would like to know what you mean by that. Some believe that Paul is speaking about Jews covering their heads with kippot. The problem with that idea is that there were no kippot at that time... in fact, it would be 200 years after Paul when Jews would begin to cover their heads. Some believe, and I would be one of them, that the kippot was added as a reaction to Christianity specifically to 1 Cor. 11. If Paul says don't cover your head, then darn if we won't cover our heads.

There is a LOT of reactionary theology between Jews and Christians wanting to distance themselves from each other.

I see nothing in scripture saying that it is a rule or even a custom for the Israelite community to cover their heads.