Men with long hair, woman with no head covering

pshun2404

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Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16


I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?

Is "makeup" worldly?

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.

Length of hair is relative...

In that time in that culture a man's hair was normally longer than what we we consider "cut hair" (especially a Rabbi's) so having longer hair does not equal "worldly" in fact a short neat cut or style IS worldly (but not really just culturally relative).

In my personal opinion, women wearing a head covering in reverence of God is very becoming and in ancient times in those middle eastern cultures it was the norm. The early Christian church followed this norm and when women were dedicated to God (like early nuns) they wore them 24/7 just like Muslim women today.
 
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dqhall

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So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?
If you study first century Roman art, you might find Roman men had their hair cut short and women had longer hair. Pompeii was buried in ash from the 79 AD eruption of Vesuvius. Archaeologists found wall murals in houses they excavated. Other art work from a wide array of locations in the form of statues revealed women's head coverings in the ancient Roman empire. They may have uncovered their heads when in the privacy of their homes. The church in Corinth, Greece was comprised of both Gentiles and Jews. Paul may have been trying to conform to either Jewish or Grecian-Roman dress code. The outward appearance is not as important as the inner soul. Men yet have short hair and women long hair. Women's styles changed frequently through the years, their hair is usually longer than men's hair.

ancient roman women head covering - Google Search
 
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HighCherub

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Long hair was hard to keep looking nice and clean during a time when people only took a bath a couple times a week.
Therefore, with men being the most strenuous of workers, they typically kept their hair short while women wore a veil to help keep theirs from getting dirty.

These were practical things which evolved into expectations of appearance in social settings. Men with long hair were usually pampered or wealthy, which was yet another reason for dislike among the lower or otherwise working classes.

Therefore, to not wear a veil or for a man to have long hair was ultimately going out of one's way to serve vanity- something particularly ill received in a church setting.
 
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RDKirk

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Historically inaccurate. Paul was a Pharisee. THEY covered their heads. The Essenes are believed to have prayed in their birthday suit when they practiced baptism, and Jesus was likely baptised by an Essene. And he probably prayed when he was baptized.

Subtle indications in scripture suggest that Jesus appeared to be a Pharisee. He certainly does not disagree with their theology--He even directed His followers to listen to them. Considering how they initially seemed to count Him as one of their own, rejecting Him only after clearly hearing the specifics of His teaching, it's it doesn't appear that He didn't look like a Pharisee.
 
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RDKirk

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I thought about commenting on men's beards but it was not directly related to the topic of Chapter 11. We always see Jesus portrayed with long hair. But we really don't know if he had long hair. It is not Jewish custom for men to have long hair, but it is a commandment in the Old Testament for Jewish men to grow their beards. Most of the orthodox Jews I have met have had long beards and short hair. I once read that the reason Jesus is painted with long hair is because it was part of some cult practice, of which I do not remember what the writer referred to. Nonetheless, it is probable that Jesus had short hair with a beard.

There is a story, I don't remember where in the Bible, when Jewish men were abducted and their beards were shaved off. They were so ashamed, that King David told them to remain where they were until their beards regrew.

Of course, none of this is relevant to my understanding of Chapter 11 since I believe the issue of hair metaphorically represents the headship order that God has set up and hair being a symbol of hindrance to communication with God.

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. Leviticus 19:27

The Mosaic Law also required them to leave their "forelocks" uncut in the same verse that directs them not to cut the edges of their beards, so it wasn't just the beard left long.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Paul is not God. Paul's opinions about hairstyles in a Greek Church 2000 years ago are not the words of God and should be completely disregarded. They have no moral lesson or message for people today in that regard, and can lead people astray into thinking there is something wrong with long hair and uncovered heads. There is not. In Paul's Corinthian Church I'm sure he had a point. That point is gone with the wind, and Paul's opinions should not be mistaken for the words of God: they aren't.


Wow, Paul's writings were completely and totally inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus are the word of God. If you disregard entire chunks of scripture based on some cultural stance you are in big trouble already.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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my understanding is Paul stated to the Corinth church the statement that men having long hair is shameful during a time period when there was a cult of men who were intentionally trying to be women in appearance and behavior. It was something discouraged during that time period and came from the mouth of a man, not of God himself (not doubting Paul's judgement mind you), just not the words of God himself. I have had long hair forever and I am not trying to wear a dress or put make up on as what was happening in that time period with that cult

As if there is not a cult nowadays of men trying to look like women....just saying, nothing new under the sun.
 
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AlexDTX

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Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. Leviticus 19:27

The Mosaic Law also required them to leave their "forelocks" uncut in the same verse that directs them not to cut the edges of their beards, so it wasn't just the beard left long.
Correct. Thanks for getting the reference.
 
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Blade

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Pauls day.. was SO much different then ours. Saved Jews would (some) would sin then try to offer a sacrifice for that sin. Paul told there.. there is no more sacrifice for sin. Christ can't die again. My point is.. all is for us.. yet some was written to a people that lived SO MUCH different then we do. God does not demand women to keep there head covered or be quite or not preach. There are some that still follow this.. to them we say PRAISE GOD! JESUS is lord.. thats what matters.

This WALK is a personal one. We work our own salvation with fear and trembling. "Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
 
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Thursday

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Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16


I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?

Is "makeup" worldly?

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.

I think Paul's point is that we should dress appropriately and not try to shock or scandalize others by our dress. Fashions change and we should be careful that our appearance does not cause harm.
 
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Catherineanne

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However, Paul said, "because of the angels". So Paul, at least, doesn't think he is merely giving a culturally-informed opinion. If we accept his writings as inspired, where does that leave us here?

Angels don't care what people wear. Why should they?
 
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Catherineanne

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Length of hair is relative...

In that time in that culture a man's hair was normally longer than what we we consider "cut hair" (especially a Rabbi's) so having longer hair does not equal "worldly" in fact a short neat cut or style IS worldly (but not really just culturally relative).

In my personal opinion, women wearing a head covering in reverence of God is very becoming and in ancient times in those middle eastern cultures it was the norm. The early Christian church followed this norm and when women were dedicated to God (like early nuns) they wore them 24/7 just like Muslim women today.

Good grief.

Moslem women do NOT wear head coverings all day; they can and do remove them in their own homes and have their hair uncovered, as long as all the people in the home are either other women, children or men who are appropriately related to them.

Moslem women cover before unrelated men. Christian women who cover do so for God, not for men.
 
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Catherineanne

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Wow, Paul's writings were completely and totally inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus are the word of God. If you disregard entire chunks of scripture based on some cultural stance you are in big trouble already.

Not quite. Paul himself makes a distinction between the words he uses which are from God and the words he uses which are his own opinion.

And we all disregard entire chunks of Scripture. Unless you happen to have cut off your own right hand or plucked out your own eyes (which I do not recommend).
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Angels don't care what people wear. Why should they?

Genesis 6:4

Book of Enoch.


If Angels didn't commit this abomination with the daughters of men, who is Abaddon in Revelation 9:11 ?

Why is he in Tartarus?
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Haipule

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Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16


I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?

Is "makeup" worldly?

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.
Difficult passage to translate!

First of all, these words of Paul were very simple words to the Corinthians, many of whom where illiterate.

Second, Paul is always trying to establish order with the Corinthians. Apparently, they were the "Animal House" of the early churches.

Paul here seems to be having some fun with words throughout the passage.

Verse 3 is figurative: the (authority)head of the man(husband) is christos. The (authority)head of the woman(wife) is the man(husband). The (authority)head of christos is God.

Paul is establishing authority structures.

In verse 4, Paul is using metaphors except for "praying" which here is public speaking prayers with others and "prophesying" is speaking in front of others. Paul is saying that men should not do so with there head down(to speak ashamedly not literally head down). That would dishonor his (authority)head who is christos. Nothing to do with wearing a hat or having long hair.

Likewise, if women do the same, public prayer, public speak, they should not do so unveiled: to speak indiscreetly, in such a manner that would dishonor her (authority)head who is her husband.

In the end verse 6 the shaved head of a women is literal. If it is a dishonor for her to have a shaved head, let her cover it. If not, who cares!

If a woman going through chemo therapy has no hair, let her cover, or uncover as she pleases. Or, a woman that shaves their head but likes to wear wigs. Or if you convert a female Hindu monk and bring her to church.

I, as a medial professional here on Maui, have a group of shaven head female Hindu monks whom all love me. I always tell them, "If you grew out your hair, you could get more dates!" :)

Well, that's the long and short of it. :)
 
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Peter J Barban

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Wow, Paul's writings were completely and totally inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus are the word of God. If you disregard entire chunks of scripture based on some cultural stance you are in big trouble already.
I totally agree.

Also, Paul was multicultural and an experienced missionary. Furthermore, though he did not call himself one, he was one of the greatest prophets of the church - with revelation, visions and dreams directly from God.

Before declaring Paul's words totally cultural, we first must acknowledge that our words are totally cultural. And if our thoughts are dominated by our culture, why are we so sure we have more truth than the Apostle Paul?
 
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Catherineanne

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Long hair was hard to keep looking nice and clean during a time when people only took a bath a couple times a week.

What ancient society are you talking about?

Therefore, with men being the most strenuous of workers, they typically kept their hair short while women wore a veil to help keep theirs from getting dirty.

Again, what ancient society are you talking about? Women have ALWAYS worked just as hard as men. Always. See Proverbs 31.

The whole concept of women sitting around doing nothing but look pretty is a very, very modern phenomenon.

These were practical things which evolved into expectations of appearance in social settings. Men with long hair were usually pampered or wealthy, which was yet another reason for dislike among the lower or otherwise working classes.

Again, what society are you talking about?

Therefore, to not wear a veil or for a man to have long hair was ultimately going out of one's way to serve vanity- something particularly ill received in a church setting.

Good grief.
 
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