Men with long hair, woman with no head covering

[I'm_Sorry]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16

I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

Are women to cover their head?

Is "makeup" worldly?

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

1 Corinthians 11:3-16

I've always had trouble understanding what Paul is stating.

Regarding men with long hair and nature.

Nature has it that hair grows and does not stop growing.

Nature within culture are it's customs e.g. custom for men to cut their hair.

What is natural?

What is natural is to live in a cave wearing a home woven blanket and eating nuts and berries. What is natural is to wash in a river and then use the same river for drinking water.

What is not natural is to use electricity, drive a car, use a fridge, watch television, read books, fly in a plane or use an actual toilet.

So perhaps 'natural' is not really the way to go.

Regarding women and makeup, this is in no way natural to my understanding, it is artificial beautifying.

See above. What is 'natural' is to not use a comb or a hairbrush and to wash in a river, if you can find one.

What is 'artificial' is to use soap. I presume you use soap? Congratulations; that is artificial beautifying.

Again, in the context of modern life these are meaningless categories and I would advise you to lose them.

the book of Enoch talks about Azazel teaching man the beautifying of the eyes.

Enoch 6

So what are we to do brothers and sister?

Are men to cut their hair?

If a man wants to cut his hair then he can. If he prefers not to, then he can do that as well.

Neither you nor I are the Barber Police.

Are women to cover their head?

If a woman wants to wear a hat or a scarf then she can. If she prefers not to, then she can do that as well. Her reasons for doing this are her own; she can choose.

Anyone attempting to impose either of these on any woman is behaving in an oppressive manner.

Is "makeup" worldly?

See comments about 'unnatural' above. Makeup is no more 'worldly' than soap, shampoo, deodorant, conditioner etc.

If people want to wear make up they can. If they prefer not to, that is fine as well.

People get to choose.

I seek discussion, teaching and understanding.

Many thanks brethren.

No problem.

 

[AarontheStudent]

Paul thinks the church should veil their heads when they pray together. The idea behind this was that it kept the person from being distracted from their prayer.

But Paul's opinion may be just that -- an opinion.

Jesus didn't cover his head every time he prayed. And more importantly, Jesus says your prayer is heard whether you even said it or not.

"14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him? "

Well, honestly Paul, I've only ever observed that from man.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

If a man wants to cut his hair then he can. If he prefers not to, then he can do that as well


If a woman wants to wear a hat or a scarf then she can. If she prefers not to, then she can do that as well.

Thank you for replying

Is this what Paul is stating?

I cant seem to read that from the text.

He's saying its not ok.

What does Paul mean by "doesn't nature itself teach you"

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Paul thinks the church should veil their heads when they pray together. The idea behind this was that it kept the person from being distracted from their prayer.

But Paul's opinion may be just that -- an opinion.

Jesus didn't cover his head every time he prayed. And more importantly, Jesus says your prayer is heard whether you even said it or not.

Thank you for replying

Does long hair on men bring shame?

Does an uncovered head of a woman bring shame?

 

[AarontheStudent]

Maybe back then it did. Nowadays, you go to church and see long hair on men, unveiled heads on women, and do you think they're bringing shame on themselves?

I would hope not. "Judge not lest ye be judged," as it's put.

 

[Catherineanne]

Thank you for replying

Is this what Paul is stating?

I cant seem to read that from the text.

He's saying its not ok.

What does Paul mean by "doesn't nature itself teach you"

Fashion is cultural, not universal. Fashions change. What is indecent in one age is perfectly acceptable in another. What is acceptable in one country is not acceptable in another. This is a factor of culture, not a factor of God's Universal Truth.

Remember the Garden of Eden? God was unhappy when Adam and Eve started to cover themselves; from God's point of view we were created to be innocent and uncovered.

Paul is speaking to the fashions of his day, not to the fashions of our day. We can take the spirit of what he says without following the actual fashion statements.

And he is mistaken about nature; see my post above.

 

[Catherineanne]

Paul thinks the church should veil their heads when they pray together. The idea behind this was that it kept the person from being distracted from their prayer.

But Paul's opinion may be just that -- an opinion.

Jesus didn't cover his head every time he prayed. And more importantly, Jesus says your prayer is heard whether you even said it or not.

"14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him? "

Well, honestly Paul, I've only ever observed that from man.

Actually, Jesus probably DID cover his head every time he prayed. He was a Jew, after all, and Jews do not pray uncovered.

 

[AarontheStudent]

I don't think his head was covered when he prayed on the cross, among other incidences where it would seem to be unveiled.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Maybe back then it did. Nowadays, you go to church and see long hair on men, unveiled heads on women, and do you think they're bringing shame on themselves?

I would hope not. "Judge not lest ye be judged," as it's put.

I don't think so, but God's word is the standard, I wouldn't judge them but His word says something else regarding how each sex should appear in the body of Christ.

I feel shamed when long hair is criticized on men, but this is justified biblically in 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 so I'm seeking understanding.

The counter claim I see here is that 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 is specific for the time it was written and that Paul was wrong on nature.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't think his head was covered when he prayed on the cross, among other incidences where it would seem to be unveiled.

Good grief.

Jews will always cover their heads to pray; men and women, as a sign of their obedience to God. Clearly if nailed to a cross there will be an exception, but that does not disprove the general rule.

 

[AarontheStudent]

God made man in his likeness. It's Paul who thinks hair is shameful.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Good grief.

Jews will always cover their heads to pray; men and women, as a sign of their obedience to God. Clearly if nailed to a cross there will be an exception, but that does not disprove the general rule.

When did head coverings come to be?

Do you have a biblical reference?

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't think so, but God's word is the standard, I wouldn't judge them but His word says something else regarding how each sex should appear in the body of Christ.

I feel shamed when long hair is criticized on men, but this is justified biblically in 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 so I'm seeking understanding.

The counter claim I see here is that 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 is specific for the time it was written and that Paul was wrong on nature.

Where does the Bible say that the Bible is the Plumbline by which we can judge our brothers and sisters?

I commend Isaiah 28:16,17 to your attention.

Plumbline verses: 22 Bible verses about Plumb Line

 

[Catherineanne]

When did head coverings come to be?

Do you have a biblical reference?

I am not in the habit of bearing false witness.

Show me the verse which says I have to give you a Bible reference for every statement of truth I make and I will provide it.

 

[Catherineanne]

God made man in his likeness. It's Paul who thinks hair is shameful.

No, it is the culture within which he is speaking.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Where does the Bible say that the Bible is the Plumbline by which we can judge our brothers and sisters?

I commend Isaiah 28:16,17 to your attention.

Plumbline verses: 22 Bible verses about Plumb Line

Are you inferring Paul is judging?

This is Paul's claim.

Is it not truth?

If so, what is?

 

[Catherineanne]

Are you inferring Paul is judging?

This is Paul's claim.

Is it not truth?

If so, what is?

What (or rather who) does the Bible say truth is?

(Clue; it isn't a book.)

 

[I'm_Sorry]

I am not in the habit of bearing false witness.

Show me the verse which says I have to give you a Bible reference for every statement of truth I make and I will provide it.

I'm not arguing I'm asking you to provide biblical evidence for head covering.

If you don't want to use the bible, use historical accounts.

If you don't at all, I'll research it.

My statement here is that I seek understanding and teaching.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

What (or rather who) does the Bible say truth is?

(Clue; it isn't a book.)

I understand it isn't a book, but the Holy Spirit breathed the NT through the born again saints in Christ Jesus and Holy Spirit filled prophets, men of God.