Please Explain How these Passages are Consistent with Calvinism

mark kennedy

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Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Not about salvation???!!
A text without a context is a pretext and the argument your making is called a strawman.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? (Romans 2:3)
Who are you to judge someone else or do you have so much contempt for the grace of God? When you judge another you are condemning yourself.

For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. (Romans 2:11,12)
Christians are not called to be self righteous, they are called to receive the righteousness of God is Christ by grace through faith. How you could miss this in Romans of all places is a mystery to me. Paul goes on for 2 and a half chapters detailing how both Jew and Gentile are guilty before God and that none are righteous, no not one. This is the bottom line for the Apostolic witness:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:21-23)
This is 100% consistent with what Peter and the other Apostles taught:

He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:42,43)
This was universally affirmed at the Council of Jerusalem by the entire church:

“Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:7-11)
NO! Peter tells us, it's not by works of the law, it's by grace through faith.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Right. It's only those whom the Father gave to Christ as his disciples who could not be snatched away. Judas was in their company, but he did not have Faith in the Messiah.
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70)

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
Jesus always knew Judas was a child of perdition, it was even prophesied right down to the price of his betrayal.
 
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ladodgers6

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This is a perfect example of man made dogma teaching the exact opposite of the Word of God.
Only empty words. This is all you have to say in response to my whole post?
 
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mark kennedy

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Thought I would extend an invitation to a formal debate on the subject matter, 'In Defense of Calvinism', in case anyone is interested:

Why, if I believed what some preach about the temporary, trumpery salvation which only lasts for a time, I would scarcely be at all grateful for it; but when I know that those whom God saves He saves with an everlasting salvation, when I know that He gives to them an everlasting righteousness. (A Defense of Calvinism by C. H. Spurgeon)
I'll be using the Spurgeon essay as a guide to details like eternal security, predestination and unlimited atonement and the charge that, ‘Calvinism is a licentious religion’.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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That's not the only distinction. Not only do they seek, but they persist in doing good.
Yet I showed you in Romans 3 that Paul continues his dialogue on all people not one, none righteous. It's important to not isolate your one verse to prove a predisposition. That is eisegesis.
 
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redleghunter

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This says nothing about a person walking away from God of their own free will.
Correct. Now when someone walks away in your model, which of the things Paul lists in Romans 8 makes the person walk away?
 
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redleghunter

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The bible is quite clear:

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live
Now please provide the exegesis and what connects each of those verses under the same context.
 
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ladodgers6

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Thought I would extend an invitation to a formal debate on the subject matter, 'In Defense of Calvinism', in case anyone is interested:

Why, if I believed what some preach about the temporary, trumpery salvation which only lasts for a time, I would scarcely be at all grateful for it; but when I know that those whom God saves He saves with an everlasting salvation, when I know that He gives to them an everlasting righteousness. (A Defense of Calvinism by C. H. Spurgeon)
I'll be using the Spurgeon essay as a guide to details like eternal security, predestination and unlimited atonement and the charge that, ‘Calvinism is a licentious religion’.

Grace and peace,
Mark
My brother, I love Spurgeon. I'll be over there.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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HONK! Wrong answer, but thank you for playing. You get a lovely consolation gift, though, a three week all paid vacation in Purgatory, where you will get a close, personal training in how to not judge, and how to love.

Okay, the above is sarcastic.

How about this. How does one learn anything? By being taught, sometimes by first hand experience (fire is hot) and sometimes by example. We all have someone who taught us to love, whether parents, friends, sweethearts, whatever. Even as unsaved people understand love (in an incomplete way) so, they can be kind, even if they are not saved.

HONK! Ignore list.
 
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redleghunter

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That's not what the bible says, that's the man made dogma created by Calvin. Jesus said those who obey will remain in his love, NOT those who remain in his love will obey.
God did say in Ezekiel 36:

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
 
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redleghunter

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I did no such thing. It is only Calvinist twisting to avoid the obvious flaws in their doctrine.

God does choose his elect based upon their merit, ie., the extent to which they cooperate with his grace.

Our actions in the flesh will determine our eternal destiny.
The flesh and the actions of the flesh are always associated with law and death. Compared to living according to the Spirit.

Romans 7:

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
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redleghunter

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Of course you don't.

You don't think he was speaking of you here either, but he could be if you don't listen. He is speaking to all of us and giving us a clear warning.

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Who are "the least of these?"
 
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redleghunter

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Romans 2 isn't about losing salvation, what Paul discusses for nearly three chapters is the need for salvation.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? (Romans 2:3)
Who are you to judge someone else or do you have so much contempt for the grace of God? When you judge another you are condemning yourself.

For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. (Romans 2:11,12)
The church in Rome was Jewish originally, converted at Pentecost. There was a serious division in the early church when the Samaritans and then the Gentiles were included. At Jerusalem the Pharisees argued that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be saved, Peter stood up and argued that neither 'we' (the Jews), nor our fathers,could bear the yoke of the Mosaic Law. Further he argues that the Gentiles are purifying themselves by grace through faith. Justification by grace through faith isn't uniquely Pauline and it didn't originate in the Protestant Reformation, it's the Apostle's doctrine period.

By now at Rome they are well aware of the mission to the Gentiles in Cyprus, Galatia Asia Minor and Greece. They are living in profoundly pagan culture and struggling with the inclusion of the Gentiles into the covenants and promises of Israel. Paul is arguing that there is no difference, Jews are sinners saved by grace and that redemption is being offered to Gentiles who can receive it by faith, apart from works.

So far the thread appears to be set up as a strawman, a version of Calvinism that simply does not exist. Neither John Calvin nor any traditional Calvinists have taught that you can live like the devil and still be saved. What they have always taught is that salvation starts with justification, apart from works of the Law or any human agency or self will. Further they have always taught that sanctification must necessarily follow.

Paul was slandered for his preaching of grace:

However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “- Let us do evil that good may result?” Their condemnation is deserved! What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin (Romans 3:7-9)
Peter, the Apostles and all true ministers teach that we are saved by grace apart from works. What is the problem with eternal security? Is there another kind of security through faith in the gospel, what's the alternative, temporary security?

I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. While I was with them, I protected them and guarded them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. (John 17:11,12)
What is the mark of a disciple?

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)
Calvinists do not now nor have they ever taught that you need not bear fruit, the insinuation is slanderous. Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)
A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could teach a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked. We will receive that full recompense of righteousness and be glorified forever based on Christ's merit, it is never our own.


Calvin never said that nor do I, nor would any self respecting Calvinist would deny that we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (Rom. 3:28)

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. (Rom. 7:13)​

The law convicts us of sin, grace saves us from it.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Exegesis....much needed in this thread.

:oldthumbsup:
 
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redleghunter

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2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you

1. Who is the audience here?

2. What translation are you using?

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Don't know which English translation you are using but here is a literal word for word in context:

1 Timothy 1: LEB

18 I am setting before you this instruction, Timothy my child, in accordance with the prophecies spoken long ago about you, in order that by them you may fight the good fight, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some, because they have rejected these, have suffered shipwreck concerning their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, in order that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

If you are going to toss verses about, you should really explain them in context. Apply some exegesis.

You are operating from a presupposition of antinomianism. No one here advocates such as @mark kennedy so eloquently pointed out.

Now two things could be happening with regards to "shipwrecked." It could be (1) these named individuals rejected the true gospel and followed a false one which would clearly be a shipwreck. Or (2) these named individuals were turned over for church discipline.

Given the context of the introduction given by Paul the subject is false teaching:

Paul begins his epistle with a warning against false doctrine and myths (verses 3–4) and a charge to remain true to “sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel” (verses 10–11). Paul then provides the names of Hymaneaus and Alexander as examples of what can happen when someone does not fight the good fight and keep the faith and a clear conscience.
 
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Monk Brendan

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When you said,
HONK! Ignore list.
I was replying to your previous post:

Those under the law are not free to do good works. Their works are all self-serving;therfore, they are as filthy rags.

If I were trying to gain Heaven by giving my neighbor a cup of water then I am not giving the water to my neighbor. I am giving it to myself.

Unless one is saved by grace, he cannot please God, nor love neighbor.

That post does not show a whole lot of God's love, mercy, or charity, does it. It also shows a superabundance of pride in being one of God's Elect. I wonder what people that would use such an answer would say when Jesus says, "I was hungry, and you gave me no food."
 
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mark kennedy

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That post does not show a whole lot of God's love, mercy, or charity, does it. It also shows a superabundance of pride in being one of God's Elect. I wonder what people that would use such an answer would say when Jesus says, "I was hungry, and you gave me no food."

I think Jesus was a little more creative when explaining grace, we know the Prodigal returned with nothing but was forgiven, that one is easy. But when you look at the parable of the Pearl of Great Price and the field where a man found a treasure, in both cases it says they went out and sold all they had with great joy. Yes, justification by grace through faith is 'unmerited favor' but in order to receive it you have to surrender all.

Virtually everyone can agree that you must come under conviction of sin, no serious question about that. I don't think I would get much of an argument either way that repentance and justification are the first step in the sanctification process. Indeed there is nothing I can do to earn salvation, nothing I can give in exchange for my soul. Paul describes it this way, you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness (Romans 6). James tells us you must believe and not have doubts:

But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do. (James 1:6-8)
By the way, that's with regards to the prayer for the wisdom to do God's will. God's grace is the 'unmerited favor' that costs us everything, because with great joy we go out and sell all we have. We must make a choice to either serve sin as slave or righteousness as slaves, the only middle ground is being double minded and unstable in all our ways.

It could cost you worldly possessions as it did the church in Smyrna. You could be persecuted for righteousness sake, Jesus warns in the Beatitudes. But you should jump and shout and leap for joy because they persecuted the prophets who were before you in the same way.

Indeed we are saved by grace through faith, no Catholic, Orthodox or Arminian would dare deny that. We are sanctified by grace and as James tells us, if we don't know how to walk in the righteousness that is by faith we should ask God, who gives us all things in Christ. Grace saves, grace sanctifies, grace equips us for ministry, the very Greek word for gifts of the Holy Spirit, that builds the body of Christ is literally, 'grace'.

We go the extra mile, give asking nothing in return, turn the other check and forgive even as we are forgiven. Why should be be counted as sheep among wolves, strangers and aliens, fools for Christ's sake? We have the righteousness of God, rulers along with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Here's the thing and I know I'm given to rambling posts. Well before we can bear fruit the seed must die and be buried. When it springs up there are hazards, a hard unbelieving heart, persecution, the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches. But the promise of God is that should we receive the word and nurture it like a farmer carefully tends to his crops, it will bear fruit in abundance.

Indeed grace though faith is a free gift, but let us not neglect to warn that the price is, it will cost you everything. No easy believism here, just the promise that it's worth it.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Monk Brendan

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Indeed grace though faith is a free gift, but let us not neglect to warn that the price is, it will cost you everything. No easy believism here, just the promise that it's worth it.

Thank you for the sermon, Reverend Mark!

You just don't get it about me, do you? I have been living in a monastery (in utter poverty) for 21 years! I have given EVERYTHING I am, and everything I have to Jesus, as a free gift, without expecting ANYTHING back. Right now we are just 30 days from being thrown out of the building where we live. I am not in fear about it (well, maybe a little, but I have given the situation to God,) I am doing all that I can to address the issue, and if God wants us out of here, we'll leave. We'll end up on the streets, but I will still be praising Jesus. And if I die homeless, and God has not ELECTED me to get to heaven, then I will go to hell praising Jesus.

NOW do you understand?

Did you think you were dealing with a neophyte? Did you think (when launching into that sermon) that I was some newbie in Christ? I am 66 years old. I was learning the Gospel (IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH) before you were born! Don't try your cookie cutter on me, because I will break out of the mold. Just like Jesus did when everybody was expecting a king, and he came as a suffering servant.

And DON'T expect God to do what you expect from your study of the Bible. God never does what we think He is supposed to do.
 
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