When is lying not sinful?

[RDKirk]

Subjective morality is not taught in God's Word.
Morals are not subjective.
God lists certain things that man is not to do that is wrong and this would be in application to willingly doing something evil and it does not apply to accidents or rape victims, etc.


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Actually, morality is subjective to God. God is not subject to morality, morality is subject to God.

For instance, it is God who determines in what context speaking something other than actuality is a lie (immoral) or tactical deception (moral); it is God who determines in what context homicide is murder (immoral) or war (moral).

God makes those determinations--the morality of the acts is subject to Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that just as killing in a God-directed war is not murder, tactical deception in a God-directed war is not lying.

Yes, I would agree with that tactical deception is not lying. But I have recently changed my view on saying words that are actual lies. Nowhere is it stated that Rahab in James 2 and Hebrews 11 that she is lying and praised for that. Also, there is no indication in the text of Exodus that the Hebrew midwives were lying, either. Assumptions are made to draw that conclusion. But we know that they feared God. This means they valued God's good ways more than their own lives.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, morality is subjective to God. God is not subject to morality, morality is subject to God.

For instance, it is God who determines in what context speaking something other than actuality is a lie (immoral) or tactical deception (moral); it is God who determines in what context homicide is murder (immoral) or war (moral).

God makes those determinations--the morality of the acts is subject to Him.

Well, the same moral laws do not always apply to God like they do for us.
He is the potter and we are just the clay.
God cannot murder because He owns all life.
Yet, man can murder.
God cannot steal, because He owns everything.
Yet, man can steal.
Yet, we do know that it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).
So God never says something to us that is not true.
Now, as for the devil: Jesus says, "...and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44).

But I do not think one day God will change and then start to lie if that is what you mean.
God is good and He has certain standard of morality or goodness that is beyond even man's ways.
He is beautiful. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty!


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[RDKirk]

Yes, I would agree with that tactical deception is not lying. But I have recently changed my view on saying words that are actual lies. Nowhere is it stated that Rahab in James 2 and Hebrews 11 that she is lying and praised for that. Also, there is no indication in the text of Exodus that the Hebrew midwives were lying, either. Assumptions are made to draw that conclusion. But we know that they feared God. This means they valued God's good ways more than their own lives.


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Rahab's entire conversation with the Jericho soldiers was to deceive them. No point in playing semantic games about the words themselves. Satan can speak absolute fact with the intent to deceive, and even though his actual words were facts, it was still all a lie.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You keep making me want to reply! Stop it.

Sometimes good conversations are just hard to let go.

*Gives you a macho man hug*

Last one. I subscribe to absolute morality too. Rape is absolutely wrong in all contexts in which rape occurs. But rape is still just a result of an action, not the action itself. Rape goes beyond intercourse (the action). What differentiates rape from other forms of intercourse? Intention and context.

Alright. I can see it involves intent. There is no denying That is what makes it rape.
Yes, it involves context or a situation for that to happen, too. My point is that God's laws do not always classify certain things to accomodate the wording of "intent" and "context" in such a neat way. They say, "Do not do this" or "Do not do that." and it does not say that certain things are included in as you say. For example: A rape victim is not classified as having committing sex before marriage laws. There is no intent on her part. It is about picking up the pieces if such an unfortunate thing happens (intent by another and context). She did not commit fornication or adultery. Yet, one could say that she might have, but she didn't. But one cannot oversimplify the issue or matter and say she just had sex before marriage. It was not her choice by what had happened. She was a victim of a forced situation. Her case is different at least according to how Scripture words things.

And to loop this back on topic, this is how I see lying too.

If you were to talk to me 24 hours ago, I would have agreed with you.
But God has a way of showing us new things that we could not see before.

In either case, may God bless you.
And please have a good night.


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[Sabertooth]

Yet, we do know that it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).
So God never says something to us that is not true.

Along with the fact that God doesn't lie, He doesn't need to lie. All that He has to do is withhold information or, similarly, impair someone's senses.

We see this throughout the Old Testament where besieging armies turned on themselves because they misunderstood their battle situation.

We see that blinding in two New Testament occurrences, too:

• Jesus, on the road to Emmaus, and
• Peter's jailbreak

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rahab's entire conversation with the Jericho soldiers was to deceive them. No point in playing semantic games about the words themselves. Satan can speak absolute fact with the intent to deceive, and even though his actual words were facts, it was still all a lie.

Here are two really good articles that say it better than I can.
Especially the second one. Wow. Really good.

Does the Bible Sanction Rahab's Lying?
Does the Story of Rahab Mean that God Condones Lying?


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[Apex]

Sometimes good conversations are just hard to let go.

*Gives you a macho man hug*



Alright. I can see it involves intent. There is no denying That is what makes it rape.
Yes, it involves context or a situation for that to happen, too. My point is that God's laws do not always classify certain things to accomodate the wording of "intent" and "context" in such a neat way. They say, "Do not do this" or "Do not do that." and it does not say that certain things are included in as you say. For example: A rape victim is not classified as having committing sex before marriage laws. There is no intent on her part. It is about picking up the pieces if such an unfortunate thing happens (intent by another and context). She did not commit fornication or adultery. Yet, one could say that she might have, but she didn't. But one cannot oversimplify the issue or matter and say she just had sex before marriage. It was not her choice by what had happened. She was a victim of a forced situation. Her case is different at least according to how Scripture words things.



If you were to talk to me 24 hours ago, I would have agreed with you.
But God has a way of showing us new things that we could not see before.

In either case, may God bless you.
And please have a good night.


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I understand your point of view. I, also, know where we differ now. This might surprise you, but I do not think intention and context mattered under the Mosaic Law. This is why a cripple was not able to enter the temple or serve as a priest. Good intentions could never make him whole. However, Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses, instead I believe we are under the Law of Christ. I define the Law of Christ as loving God with all my being and loving others. All my ethics get filtered through this law. Love is intentional. Love is contextual. Sin is doing something that is unloving either to God or others.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Along with the fact that God doesn't lie, He doesn't need to lie. All that He has to do is withhold information or, similarly, impair someone's senses.

We see this throughout the Old Testament where besieging armies turned on themselves because they misunderstood their battle situation.

We see that blinding in two New Testament occurrences, too:

• Jesus, on the road to Emmaus, and
• Peter's jailbreak

Blinding is probably what happened with the two guards that were watching Peter.
But it could also be that God made them to partake of a really deep sleep, too.


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[Kenny'sID]

Glad to see others have had this same question...it's something I've wondered about.

Here's one that didn't seem to bother God.

Genesis 26:7
And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.

All I'll add for now is, it appears lying isn't always cut and dried wrong and if it is, it's an acceptable wrong God seems to overlook in certain cases.

Lying to stop an evil instead of to do one is OK?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I understand your point of view. I, also, know where we differ now. This might surprise you, but I do not think intention and context mattered under the Mosaic Law. This is why a cripple was not able to enter the temple or serve as a priest. Good intentions could never make him whole. However, Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses, instead I believe we are under the Law of Christ. I define the Law of Christ as loving God with all my being and loving others. All my ethics get filtered through this law. Love is intentional. Love is contextual. Sin is doing something that is unloving either to God or others.

Yes, I agree that we are not under the Law of Moses or the whole of the many commands in the Torah. I believe we are under the commands of the New Testament, as well. But I believe that the two greatest commands like loving God and loving others is defined for us with the other more detailed commands in the New Testament.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Glad to see others have had this same question...it's something I've wondered about.

Here's one that didn't seem to bother God.

Genesis 26:7
And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.

All I'll add for now is, it appears lying isn't always cut and dried wrong and if it is, it's an acceptable wrong God seems to overlook in certain cases.

Lying to stop an evil instead of to do one is OK?

Sarah technically was Abram's half sister.

Here is a good article on this one.

Did Abram Really Lie?


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[Kenny'sID]

Sarah technically was Abram's half sister.

Here is a good article on this one.

Did Abram Really Lie?

And in if we know we all came from Adam, she
was his full sister. Still, for all intents and purposes, it was a lie, meant to deceive, and to keep a bad thing from happening.

I didn't read the link because I seriously doubt Issac was thinking it was his half sister, and that's why he'd say that. He pretty well admits he lied.

 

[Sabertooth]

Blinding is probably what happened with the two guards that were watching Peter.
But it could also be that God made them to partake of a really deep sleep, too.

Check out the "God at Work" paragraph in THIS TESTIMONY...

It is another situation where subterfuge was quite necessary.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And in if we know we all came from Adam, she
was his full sister. Still, for all intents and purposes, it was a lie, meant to deceive, and to keep a bad thing from happening.

I didn't read the link because I seriously doubt Issac was thinking it was his half sister, and that's why he'd say that. He pretty well admits he lied.

No. Sarai was Abram's half sister. He did not lie about that.

"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." (Genesis 20:12).

In other words, Abram was only sharing a little bit of truth and not the whole truth, which is not the same as lying. Jesus did this many times. He did not reveal the whole truth to people that He was God to all people during His ministry.


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[CrystalDragon]

There is a difference between reporting and approving.
God does not teach that it is ok to lie, but he knows our weaknesses and works with them.

Didn't God send lying spirits at least once in the Bible?

Also I think that lying wouldn't be a sin if the lie was for the purposes of saving someone's life, like people hiding Jews from the Nazis.

 

[Jim Langston]

What does this mean ? 1 Corinthians 10:23

That, I believe, is saying nothing is, of itself, sin. Drinking is not sin, being a drunkard is sinful. Eating is not sin, being a glutton is sinful.

 

[RDKirk]

No. Sarai was Abram's half sister. He did not lie about that.

"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." (Genesis 20:12).

In other words, Abram was only sharing a little bit of truth and not the whole truth, which is not the same as lying. Jesus did this many times. He did not reveal the whole truth to people that He was God to all people during His ministry.


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The deception in both circumstances was not that Sarah/Sarai was Abraham's/Abram's sister. The deception was that Sarah/Sarai was not Abraham's/Abram's wife. Lots of cultures married their sisters--if she had been both his sister and his wife, that would have been shruggable.

The deception was that she was free to be taken in marriage. People today--unfortunately even Christians-- like to define "lie" according to whether the words depict physical facts--that's Greek epistemology. We in the West are steeped in Greek epistemology.

But God doesn't do Greek epistemology. The fact is that Abram/Abraham used clever wording to deceive two leaders, and God called him on it both times.

 

[toLiJC]

Then how do you account for Rahab, the Hebrew mid wives, the battle at Ai, the spies sent into the Promised Land, and God sending a lying spirit to Ahab?

Granted, I am not saying God lies. The Scriptures say it is impossible for God to lie. But I think we have to define what lying is and what other occurences of what appears to be lying but it is not.

For example: Spies can lie as a part of their job in covert operations, but they are not considered disloyal to their own country. If the spy lies to their own country, then there is a problem. They may be a double agent or working for their own self interests.

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in short, if God lied to somebody, then it is certain the god that lied was not the true One - there are at least two gods (as it is explained in 1 John 5:19-21) the true One and the wicked/evil one, if the true One was seen to lie, then it is certain His lie was not a lie, otherwise He would not be true and would be sinful, but whether that one that was seen to lie was really the true God?!

Blessings

 

[razzelflabben]

First let's clear one thing up...Annais and Sapphire lied to the HS not just any lie, so a bad example when answering this question. The best we could do with this example is say never is it okay to lie to the HS.

Now that being said, after praying over the issue here is my answer. We are today under the NT law of Love which says that Love rejoices in truth. The counter to this according to I Cor. 13 is evil. IOW's Love does no evil but rejoices in truth. If we look further into the law of Love we see that Love does no harm. So what is really being said here is that the law says that we are to speak the truth in Love but a "lie" like that of a joke where no one is offended is not sin. If the joke hurts someone it is a sin, end of story. So let's say that I am playing with our son which I do sometimes, he comes in to get a snack and I say, "don't you ever do that again" now he knows I am joking and plays along with "watch me" and so it goes...no harm no foul. On the other hand if I offend him in some way with my joke it is sin because it was not done in Love.

Before we move on from here let me make one thing clear about this. Not every offense does harm so the issue is NOT if someone is offended as we see today anything can cause an offense. The issue is harm. Love does no harm.

Okay, this is further clarified in the OT law where it says that we are not to bare false witness against our neighbor. A false witness or testimony would without doubt do harm as I have been the receiver of on more than one occasion. A false testimony does nothing at all to bring someone into a right relationship with God. See, the purpose of Love is reconciliation/restoration and everything we do is to bring about this goal....so if the "lie" is not bringing about reconciliation/restoration of some kind it is not Love.

One more comment, where it is true that God cannot lie it is also true from scripture that He can send a lying spirit...thus it would seem to me that God alone can judge what is and is not okay and as such our only hope of being without sin is to do everything we do in the yielding of ourselves completely to the HS and in that learn to live constantly in the Love that rejoices in truth.

That's my two cents.