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Speak in Tongues - essential :

Ken Rank

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Yes, God is speaking to Himself, the things we need but don't even know about, or how to pray for them.

You may not associate this verse to speaking in tongues, but those who know about speaking in tongues recognize that this is what happens.

For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need? And a verse that uses the word 'sign' very clearly to denote Christ as a child and prophetic fulfillment is also really understood to be speaking about tongues but only recognized as such by those who speak in tongues... even though you aren't speaking in tongues, it is really God speaking through you to Himself?

A. God in't the author of confusion and I am lost
B. God is no respecter of persons

You have taken one "gift" and exalted it above others making it so that having the Spirit is = to this gift when the Scripture doesn't plainly state that. We shouldn't have to play connect the dots with so serious a thing.... to the Israelite God said concerning the Sabbath, "it is a sign between me and you." You have no verse making such a claim pertaining to tongues but act as if you do. That act, respectfully, does divide brethren because "you get" and "somebody else doesn't" and that makes them less than you and less in God's eyes.

You can have the last word... this wasn't a place for me to make the case against tongues but I think I will take the information I have accumulated over the last 20 years on this and lay it out in another thread. Blessings!
 
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1stcenturylady

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I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need? And a verse that uses the word 'sign' very clearly to denote Christ as a child and prophetic fulfillment is also really understood to be speaking about tongues but only recognized as such by those who speak in tongues... even though you aren't speaking in tongues, it is really God speaking through you to Himself?

A. God in't the author of confusion and I am lost
B. God is no respecter of persons




You have taken one "gift" and exalted it above others making it so that having the Spirit is = to this gift when the Scripture doesn't plainly state that. We shouldn't have to play connect the dots with so serious a thing.... to the Israelite God said concerning the Sabbath, "it is a sign between me and you." You have no verse making such a claim pertaining to tongues but act as if you do. That act, respectfully, does divide brethren because "you get" and "somebody else doesn't" and that makes them less than you and less in God's eyes.

You can have the last word... this wasn't a place for me to make the case against tongues but I think I will take the information I have accumulated over the last 20 years on this and lay it out in another thread. Blessings!

I have not exalted tongues above the other gifts. Isn't this OP about tongues? My favorite gift that God has given me is receiving his rhemas.
 
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I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need? And a verse that uses the word 'sign' very clearly to denote Christ as a child and prophetic fulfillment is also really understood to be speaking about tongues but only recognized as such by those who speak in tongues... even though you aren't speaking in tongues, it is really God speaking through you to Himself?
You DO have a point there, Ken, that deserves a serious and careful response from any of our Pentecostal friends. Lets see. :)
 
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ToBeLoved

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So if the gifts ended..so did the Gospel.
The devilish falsehood of cessationism just continues to show itself to be preposterous .
Now that makes sense. smh :scratch: :doh:

I think if the gospel ended, Jesus would have told us that.
 
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Nope he said Go heal the sick preach the gospel drive out devils etc
So if the gifts ended..so did the Gospel.
Now that makes sense. smh

Not really. What it tells us is that these gifts, which were routine or commonplace in the early church, existed in order to help spread the Gospel to the unbelieving world AND THAT when that objective was fulfilled and the church was established throughout the Roman world from Britain to Africa to the Middle east, they ceased except for rare instances. God gave them for a purpose and that purpose was accomplished.

The Gospel had not ceased; on the contrary, the Gospel had been planted and converts baptized throughout the known world...just as the Great Commission given by Christ to his Apostles had directed. Matthew 28:19
 
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I see you still do not see that tongues spoken by someone by themselves edifies that person. And 1 Corinthians 14:2 is not interpreted as you do by anyone else, including God. It is twisting a scripture you do not want to believe.

That is a selfish satisfaction. Therefore, it cannot be considered as spiritual gift. You are twisting Paul's letter as pointed out by Peter(2 Peter 3:16)
 
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That is a selfish satisfaction. Therefore, it cannot be considered as spiritual gift. You are twisting Paul's letter as pointed out by Peter(2 Peter 3:16)

That is like saying obeying Christ to receive eternal life is selfish. Forbid not to speak in tongues.
 
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Ken Rank

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One of the most repeated prophecies in the OT is the calling of Israel back out of the nations they were scattered into. Israel was scattered into the nations.... and messiah said, "I have not been sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Those in the nations... so what do we see at Pentecost? We see disciples speaking in languages from around the world, the languages of the nations... and people from those nations hearing in their native tongue. A miracle, but not unknown tongues or God speaking through you to Himself for things you don't even know you need.... but a clear indication that the call to Israel in the nations, the fulfillment of one of the most repeated prophecies in the bible, had begun.

That takes Acts 2 out of the conversation completely in regards to everyone speaking in unknown tongues.
 
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REASONS WHY TO TELEION CANNOT MEAN “THE PERFECT” IN 13:10

The most common definitions of the English word "perfect" applied to Corinthians 13:10 would probably include:
(a) being entirely without fault or defect
(b) corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
(c) the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state.

Either of these three or a combination of them is the usual notion the average person attaches to the word. All three are qualitative in nature, a characteristic that renders them unsatisfactory renderings of to teleion. Four reasons demonstrate this:

[1] No other use of teleios in Paul can possibly mean "perfection" in the sense of the absence of all imperfection. In fact, the meaning of “perfection" in Greek philosophers—that of a “perfect" man—is absent from the New Testament." Utopian perfection was a philosophical notion, not a New Testament idea, for this word.“ Elsewhere in Paul the adjective is figurative and refers almost exclusively to a grown man [cf. 1 Cor. 2:6, 14:20, Phil. 3:15; Eph. 4:13; Col. 1:28; cf. also Heb. 5:14].o One other time, in Colossians 4:12, it means "mature" in the Old Testament sense of wholeness and obedience to God's will, and picks up on his ambition for every man as stated in Colossians 1:28." So six of the other seven times Paul uses the word, it means "mature." The remaining use is in Romans 12:1 where its meaning is “complete."
This pattern of usage establishes a strong probability that the word includes the sense of maturity in 1 Corinthians 13:10, especially since its other two uses in 1 Corinthians have that sense.

[2] In the immediate context of 1 Corinthians 13:8–13, a qualitative word such as "perfect" is unsuitable in light of the apodosis of the sentence in 13:10, “Perfect" is not a suitable opposite to ek merous ["partial"). A better meaning would be "whole" or "complete" as antithetical to ek merous.

[3] The terminology of 13:11 is most conclusive because it is an analogy with the stages of human life [i.e., nēpios (“child"] and anēr ["man"]].

(a) The analogy directly impacts the meaning of to teleion in 13:10 because it sets up a teleios/nēpios antithesis in verses 10–11 that is relative, not absolute, and therefore incompatible with the concept of perfection. The difference between childhood and adulthood is a matter of degree, not one of mutually exclusive differentiation.
(b) The nēpios/anēr antithesis in verse 11 has the same contextual effect of ruling out the notion of an ideal state as denoted by the translation “perfect."[4] The terminology of 13:12 requires an allusion to degrees of revelatory understanding, not perfection or freedom from imperfection. The verbs blepomen ("I see") and ginõskõ ("I know") correlate with the gifts of prophecy and knowledge and their limited insights compared with the complete understanding that will prevail in the future. This is quantitative, not qualitative, so to teleion must have the same quantitative connotation.

Hence, both etymological and contextual considerations argue emphatically against the meaning "perfect" for to teleion.

REASONS WHY TO TELEION MUST MEAN “COMPLETE” OR “MATURE”

Corresponding to the reasons for not translating "the perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 are four considerations pointing toward the meaning “complete” or "mature" for to teleion.

1. The idea of totality, wholeness, or completion controls the New Testament usage of teleios. In the present connection, totality takes on an added dimension: "Yet in the main the feeling of antiquity . . . was that only an 'adult’ can be a 'full' man; hence these senses can overlap in Paul."' The thought behind the overlap of "complete" and "mature" in this word's usage is that in the minds of the ancients, adulthood represented a degree of completeness not present during childhood. If ever a clear case for this overlap in meaning existed, 1 Corinthians 13:10 is that case. The background of teleios not only allows for the overlap, the circumstances of the context also require the dual concept of “complete-mature."

2. Another reason for this meaning is the consistent sense of the teleios/ nēpios antithesis in Paul, the New Testament, and all Greek literature. Whenever in the proximity of nēpios, as it is in 1 Corinthians 13:10–11, teleios always carries the connotation of adulthood versus childhood [1 Cor. 2:6 and 3:1; 14:20; Eph. 3:13–14; cf. Heb. 5:13–14)." In 1 Corinthians 2:6 Paul speaks of imparting wisdom to tois teleiois (“the mature"), but he encounters an obstacle because, according to 1 Corinthians 3:1, his readers are nēpiois ("infants"]. In 1 Corinthians 14:20, his command to the Corinthians is to be children (nēpiazete) in malice but adults (teleioi) in understanding. In Ephesians 4:13–14, his goal is for all members of Christ's body to attain to the unity of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, i.e., to a teleios anēr ("mature man"), so that they be no longer nēpioi (“children"). The writer of Hebrews echoes this antithesis in 5:13–14 when he compares elementary teaching to milk that is suitable for a nēpios ("child" or “infant") with solid food that is suitable for teleiōn ("the mature").

3. First Corinthians 12–14 has many parallels with Ephesians 4:1-16, a passage that teaches the gradual maturing of the church through the present age. That correspondence is all the more instructive in light of Paul's presence in Ephesus while writing 1 Corinthians. He was probably teaching the Ephesian church the same principles he penned in the Corinthian letter. Then about five years later, as he wrote back to the Ephesian church, he found it necessary to reemphasize and develop the same truths about growth in the body of Christ that he had instructed them about while present with them. The similarities between the two contexts include the following:
  • All Seven unifying influences listed in Ephesians 4:4-6 are present in 1 Corinthians 12–14 [1 Cor. 12:4-6, 13; 13:13, 14:22). Particularly noticeable are one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one baptism, and one God and Father of all.
  • Emphasis on unity in the body [1 Cor. 12:4-6, 11–13, 24—26; Eph. 4:3, 13) along with the diversity of the body's members (1 Cor. 12:14—26; Eph. 4:11, 16) pervades each passage.
  • The noun meros (“part") in both passages depicts individual members of Christ's body (1 Cor. 12:27; Eph. 4:16).
  • Corporateness of the body (1 Cor. 12:27a; Eph. 4:15–16) combines with an individualistic focus [1 Cor. 12:27b; Eph. 4:4, 7, 16) as a ruling consideration in both places.
  • The general subject under discussion in Ephesians (Eph. 4:7, 11) is spiritual gifts as it is in 1 Corinthians 12–14.
  • The figure representing the church in both passages is the human body, as it is always when Paul talks about spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 4:4, 15–16; cf. Rom. 12:3-8).
  • Edification of the body of Christ is the stated objective in both sections (1 Cor. 14:12, 26; Eph. 4:12, 16).
  • Growth from childhood to adulthood is portrayed in Ephesians 4:13–14 as it is in 1 Corinthians 13:11,
  • The nēpios/teleios anēr antithesis is found in Ephesians as it is in 1 Corinthians 13:10–11 (Eph. 4:13–14)
Love is the overarching quality in the growth process in both passages [1 Cor. 13:1-13; Eph. 4:15–16).
Since Ephesians 4:1-16 offers a distinct picture of a gradually developing and maturing body of Christ," the probability is strong that Paul intends to convey the same in 1 Corinthians 13:11, Though he may not say explicitly “the complete or mature body" [i.e., the complete or mature body with reference to revelatory activity) in 1 Corinthians 13:10, he had doubtless taught them verbally at some time during his extended eighteen-month residence in Corinth (as he did the Ephesian church) regarding this analogy so that it was perfectly clear to them what he was talking about. It remains for the interpreter to clarify what he meant by resorting to another of his writings quite relevant to 1 Corinthians.

4. The illustration of 13:11 is hardly suitable to refer to the difference between the present and a period after the parousia. So, the analogy of verse 11 must be supplying data supplemental to what is in verse 12.

a. To say that the parousia is in view in verse 11 is to see Paul as using his own adult status to illustrate a perfection that follows the parousia. Yet, in Philippians 3:12, he views himself as incomplete in his current state as an adult [teteleiōmai ("I am brought to completeness"), a perfect tense; cf. gegona, 1 Corinthians 13:11, which has a present force: "now that I am a man"). In fact, in the very next verse, 1 Corinthians 13:12, he disclaims such a completed state by noting that currently he is among those whose present state is that of conspicuous limitations." This state of incompletion in Paul as an adult negates any possibility that he intends his adulthood of verse 11 to correspond to the state of ultimate completion in verse 12. It is also contrary to Pauline Christian humility as reflected elsewhere in the apostle's Writings that he would choose such an illustration (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:9; Eph. 3:8; 1Tim. 1:15)

b. The nature of the transition from childhood to adulthood is not Sudden as will be the change at the parousia. It is a gradual process. Adolescence is a transitional period between childhood and adulthood.

c. By nature, the process described by katērgēka ("I render inoperative") in 13:11 indicates an altered condition that Continues. It is a dramatic perfecto It indicates "a change of state which still continues; the emancipation from childish things took place as a matter of course, . . . and it continues."* If Christ did not return before a permanent body of New Testament revelation was finished, a degree of completion would arrive that would render unnecessary a continuation of the process involving the revelatory gifts.

d. The difference between childhood and manhood is a feeble illustration of the vast difference between the Christian's present state and that which will exist after the parousia.

- From Understanding Spiritual Gifts - A verse by verse study of 1 Corinthians 12-14 by Robert Thomas (Professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary in Sun Valley, CA).
My apologies for the late reply.
A good intro to my reply would be with Gordon D. Fee’s following remarks;
Gordon D. Fee God’s Empowering Presence, 1994 p.207
It is perhaps an indictment on Western Christianity that we should consider to be “mature” our rather totally cerebral and domesticated—but bland—brand of faith, with the concomitant absence of the Spirit in terms of his supernatural gifts! The Spirit, not Western rationalism, marks the turning of the ages, after all; and to deny the Spirit’s manifestations is to deny our present existence as eschatological, as belonging to the beginning of the time of the End.

When I first read this material, it was on a mobile phone, where having initially thought that I had misread paragraph [1] that oddly said that the New Testament is devoid of any mention of ‘perfection’ relating to the ‘perfect man’, I then scrolled down to see who would have said such a strange thing; when I realised that it was Thomas the remarks by Fee came to mind regarding a similar article that Thomas wrote in 1974 which can be found in the following spoiler in Fee’s 1 Corinthians on 13:10.

The question needs to be asked of Thomas as to where he has been when who knows how many of his compatriots have both pondered and struggled over Paul’s meaning in Matthew 5:48 with “Be perfect [teleios], therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect [teleios]”. Of course it could be that Thomas is content to believe that we will not be perfect when we are united with the Son in his heavenly Kingdom, which certainly stands against all of the orthodox doctrine that I am aware of on this subject; this is another reason why so many Evangelicals since around the time of Thomas’s book (1978) had become increasingly uncomfortable with the precepts that undergird the cessationist worldview.


As to his objections to the following three definitions as being unsuited as a translation for telion, he has again gone against not only the plain meaning of the passage but probably with 95-99% of scholarship on the meaning of the word.
  • being entirely without fault or defect
  • corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
  • the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state.
It seems that Thomas is obviously fully aware that Paul is talking about the Parousia but as he is also fully aware that the old understanding that Paul was supposedly speaking of either the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ, the writing of the last New Testament Book, or with the completion of the Canon, then he has of course attempted to throw in the proverbial spanner by attempting to say that the plain meaning of the text is not what Paul meant; why would anyone not deem our future inheritance where we will be united with Christ in a perfect state as not in fact being anything else but perfect?

As the material by Thomas is now very dated (1978) it would undoubtedly help things to post some contemporary material that is peer reviewed - poor Thomas, after reading his work he sounds much like the doubting Thomas of the New Testament - but again, he was writing in a period where the commentators of the period new very little about the things of the Spirit.

It seems that Thomas is obviously fully aware that Paul is talking about the Parousia but as he is also fully aware that the old understanding that Paul was supposedly speaking of either the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ, the writing of the last New Testament Book, or with the completion of the Canon, then he has of course attempted to throw in the proverbial spanner by attempting to say that the plain meaning of the text is not what Paul meant; why would anyone not deem our future inheritance where we will be united with Christ in a perfect state as not in fact being anything else but perfect?

1 Cor 13_10 (Telios Lexicon).png


1 Cor 13_10 (Thiselton 2000).png

1 Cor 13_10 (Telios, Garland 2003).png


1 Cor 13_10 (Thiselton 2000).png
1 Cor 13_10 (Telios, Garland 2003).png


1 Cor 13_10 (Telios, Fee 1994).png

 
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I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need?
You can be well assured that Pentecostals, or at least those who are Trinitarian, that we are well aware that it God does not pray to himself, where many scholars and commentators will even point this out as we are aware that it is the Holy Spirit who is praying to the Father through us.
 
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Righttruth

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That is like saying obeying Christ to receive eternal life is selfish. Forbid not to speak in tongues.

Christianity demands, suffering, sharing and serving one another, not speaking gibberish for a deluded personal satisfaction! Crafty Paul gave a long rope to mockers in Corinth to stop this nuisance by preferring prophecy. History tells clearly that they took that advice and this stopped for hundreds of years only to be relapsed about one hundred years back in USA.

Furthermore, Paul never categorized speaking unknown tongue as a spiritual gift.
 
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Christianity demands, suffering, sharing and serving one another, not speaking gibberish for a deluded personal satisfaction! Crafty Paul gave a long rope to mockers in Corinth to stop this nuisance by preferring prophecy. History tells clearly that they took that advice and this stopped for hundreds of years only to be relapsed about one hundred years back in USA.
Yes, I suppose that when Paul said (14:5) "I wish that you all spoke in tongues" that he was merely being crafty in your view and when he instructs the Church to speak in tongues to the Father on three occasions during our meetings that he was being crafty as well.

Furthermore, Paul never categorized speaking unknown tongue as a spiritual gift.
Uh!!!!!!!!
 
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1stcenturylady

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Christianity demands, suffering, sharing and serving one another, not speaking gibberish for a deluded personal satisfaction! Crafty Paul gave a long rope to mockers in Corinth to stop this nuisance by preferring prophecy. History tells clearly that they took that advice and this stopped for hundreds of years only to be relapsed about one hundred years back in USA.

Furthermore, Paul never categorized speaking unknown tongue as a spiritual gift.

I have experience in the spiritual gifts which trumps your lack of experience. This is why I have faith and you don't. This is also why I am able to hear his voice, because I understand what the word means, and you are wrapped up in your human reasoning. Seeing as you again used the "G" word, you are going on ignore. I have no time for reckless blasphemers.
 
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Righttruth

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I have experience in the spiritual gifts which trumps your lack of experience. This is why I have faith and you don't. This is also why I am able to hear his voice, because I understand what the word means, and you are wrapped up in your human reasoning. Seeing as you again used the "G" word, you are going on ignore. I have no time for reckless blasphemers.

Self-claim, self-proclamations are like modern technology selfies: pure selfish arrogance and self-centeredness !. Your personal experience cannot be be categorized as something spiritual. Considering unknown tongue as motivated by the Holy Spirit is a deluded human reasoning. Attaching that to the Holy Spirit is a blasphemy. I am concerned in proclaiming the way to the truth.

By the way, do you hear His voice that cannot be understood?
 
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Righttruth

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Yes, I suppose that when Paul said (14:5) "I wish that you all spoke in tongues"

Please don't mix up spiritual gift to personal utterance whenever the word 'tongue' is mentioned. Paul is actually referring to different languages he was able to speak, probably Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek,etc. Notice he never spoke in an unknown tongue in the congregation. Neither anyone else, Jesus and His chosen apostles included.

that he was merely being crafty in your view and when he instructs the Church to speak in tongues to the Father on three occasions during our meetings that he was being crafty as well.
Uh!!!!!!!!

The word 'crafty' is used by him to explain his method, not by me. Could you quote the verses for me. Again don't mix up tongues of Pentecost with mockery of utterances in notorious Corinth. We are dealing with a split tongue of a serpent so to say. Paul definitely considered them separately.
 
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Please don't mix up spiritual gift to personal utterance whenever the word 'tongue' is mentioned. Paul is actually referring to different languages he was able to speak, probably Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek,etc. Notice he never spoke in an unknown tongue in the congregation. Neither anyone else, Jesus and His chosen apostles included.
There are certain things in life that are absolutes, such as the sun rising in the East, that apples fall to the ground and that tongues are always directed toward the Father in inarticulate unintelligible sounds. Paul has not provided us with any indicators that tongues can be used to speak to others, which is something that you obviously already know, but for whatever reason that is unknown to us, you still keep on trying to pull this old humanist folly.
 
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Ken Rank

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You can be well assured that Pentecostals, or at least those who are Trinitarian, that we are well aware that it God does not pray to himself, where many scholars and commentators will even point this out as we are aware that it is the Holy Spirit who is praying to the Father through us.
That's fine.... do whatever you believe you are truly being led to do. Shalom.
 
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Alithis

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Self-claim, self-proclamations are like modern technology selfies: pure selfish arrogance and self-centeredness !. Your personal experience cannot be be categorized as something spiritual. Considering unknown tongue as motivated by the Holy Spirit is a deluded human reasoning. Attaching that to the Holy Spirit is a blasphemy. I am concerned in proclaiming the way to the truth.

By the way, do you hear His voice that cannot be understood?
Actually stating the things of God are of the devil is the same thing the Pharisees accused Jesus of.
And then Jesus warned about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...
 
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Not really. What it tells us is that these gifts, which were routine or commonplace in the early church, existed in order to help spread the Gospel to the unbelieving world AND THAT when that objective was fulfilled and the church was established throughout the Roman world from Britain to Africa to the Middle east, they ceased except for rare instances. God gave them for a purpose and that purpose was accomplished.

The Gospel had not ceased; on the contrary, the Gospel had been planted and converts baptized throughout the known world...just as the Great Commission given by Christ to his Apostles had directed. Matthew 28:19
that was a me being cynical. Should have put an emoji in there. Updating post.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Actually stating the things of God are of the devil is the same thing the Pharisees accused Jesus of.
And then Jesus warned about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...
I believe that that was particular because the Pharisee's believed Jesus was close to God, yet assigned the devil to Him. I'm not sure that can even happen anymore in this way.
 
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