Speak in Tongues - essential :

[Ken Rank]

Speaking in tongues is not a learned second or even third language. It is unknown to the speaker, and to the hearers, except supernaturally interpreted.

If it is unknown to you, then what is the point? You are saying things to God that only He understands that is really being spoken by the Spirit (which is God) through you so in actuality God is speaking to Himself through you? What is the point?

 

[Ken Rank]

"God is not the author of confusion" -- a verse much bandied about, and agreed upon by all, I guess.

Something happened in Acts ch 2 -- many onlookers thought it was the result of the believers being drunk (which was not true, it just looked that way) -- but the point is; GOD WAS THE AUTHOR of what happened at Pentecost.

Are we agreed on THAT at least?

I want to know if anyone here thinks God was NOT the author of what happened in Acts 2, for it seems some are saying that God is NOT the author of similar things that may be happening yet today.

Acts 2 has the beginning of the call into the nations and there around where the Upper Room was, was people from many nations. So, the Spirit moved those that where there, they spoken in foreign languages and we know this because the foreigners who were there heard in their own languages. A miracle, no doubt.... but not a sign that everyone who comes in faith will speak in other or unknown languages.

 

[Anto9us]

I want to know if anyone thinks "THE PERFECT" has come already, the TELEIOS mentioned in Corinthians, a COMPLETENESS of things at which point the charismatic gifts would in fact CEASE, VANISH AWAY...

Can anyone look around at this world today and say "the Perfect" has come?

No, it was not "the completion of the Canon" -- that is not even agreed upon by all Christians TO THIS DAY -- and everyone knows it, RCC, Orthodox, Protestants have different Old Testaments and Coptic Ethiopian Orthodox even have additional NEW Testament books

THE PERFECT was not the 'completion of the Bible' as Cessationists contend -- is anyone looking for real PERFECTION, COMPLETENESS, etc IN THE FUTURE WHEN CHRIST COMES BACK?

or is this now AS GOOD AS IT GETS like the Full Prets say ?

 

[CrystalDragon]

Absolutely !!!

Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues as the spirit gives direct undefileable contact with GOD !

Just as in the beginning ..Acts 2v4.. included Mary the mother of Jesus....

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (MUST)

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth....according to the word, to pray in the Spirit :

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


the first 2 is your part...the third is Gods seal of approval !

Holy Ghost + speaking in tongues .. no tongues no Spirit..

Ro 8:9 .............Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Not to be confused with the demonstration IN THE CHURCH (max 3) to show you are who you say you are !!
when you pray..go to your closet, private place and pray...


confess Jesus Christ..his way...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

package deal

obtain the Grace,Mercy and Faith that Jesus Christ has made avaliable to whomsoever will..

or have the adversaries religious confusion..just words no power !

The only "speaking on tongues" was during Pentecost, when the Apostles could communicate with everyone in their own language. "Praying in tongues" as in just random gibberish that comes to you is the opposite and simply that, random gibberish.

 

[Anto9us]

not a sign that everyone who comes in faith will speak in other or unknown languages.

I agree with that, Ken, I never claimed "that everyone who comes in faith will speak in other or unknown languages"
like Paul said "do all speak with tongues?"

Point is -- GOD WAS THE AUTHOR of the Pentecost experience, though it did in fact make many think that the disciples were full of new wine.

 

[Anto9us]

1Co 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The key here is whether anyone thinks "when that which is perfect is come" - mentioned in 1 Cor 13:10 - has indeed already COME or is yet to be expected.

There is absolutely no justification to use eisegesis trying to make "the completion of the New Testament" equivalent to THAT WHICH IS PERFECT -- none whatsoever

 

[1stcenturylady]

If it is unknown to you, then what is the point? You are saying things to God that only He understands that is really being spoken by the Spirit (which is God) through you so in actuality God is speaking to Himself through you? What is the point?

Yes, God is speaking to Himself, the things we need but don't even know about, or how to pray for them.

You may not associate this verse to speaking in tongues, but those who know about speaking in tongues recognize that this is what happens.

For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[Anto9us]

The only "speaking on tongues" was during Pentecost

Absolutely FALSE.
It was happening at Corinth, much later, Paul wrote much about it long after Pentecost.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The only "speaking on tongues" was during Pentecost, when the Apostles could communicate with everyone in their own language. "Praying in tongues" as in just random gibberish that comes to you is the opposite and simply that, random gibberish.

Please do not use derogatory slurs against a gift of God. You may presently be ignorant that the "G" word is offensive, but now you know.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Please do not use derogatory slurs against a gift of God. You may presently be ignorant that the "G" word is offensive, but now you know.

Thanks for the correction—I never thought of "gibberish" as offensive, but if it is I apologize for its misuse. I thought that the only "speaking in tongues" though just meant uniting all the languages.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Thanks for the correction—I never thought of "gibberish" as offensive, but if it is I apologize for its misuse. I thought that the only "speaking in tongues" though just meant uniting all the languages.

I saw that you see speaking in tongues as only being on the Day of Pentecost. Why? No where is it explained as such in scripture. You may not recognize it but if you re-read Acts 2 carefully, you will see that the devout Jews each HEARD THEM (all of them) speaking their own language. That means their hearing was supernatural, not natural as many teach erroneously. Only the mockers did not receive this supernatural hearing, or interpretation, and claimed they were drunk.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I saw that you see speaking in tongues as only being on the Day of Pentecost. Why? No where is it explained as such in scripture. You may not recognize it but if you re-read Acts 2 carefully, you will see that the devout Jews each HEARD THEM (all of them) speaking their own language. That means their hearing was supernatural, not natural as many teach erroneously. Only the mockers did not receive this supernatural hearing, or interpretation, and claimed they were drunk.

Ohh, okay. I didn't know that it happened at times other than Pentecost What I more meant though was that people think "praying in tongues" means speaking in some sort of language than seems unkown to people, when as shown in both Pentecost and Acts it was in a way the opposite, able to be granted by God to understand each language.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Ohh, okay. I didn't know that it happened at times other than Pentecost What I more meant though was that people think "praying in tongues" means speaking in some sort of language than seems unkown to people, when as shown in both Pentecost and Acts it was in a way the opposite, able to be granted by God to understand each language.

Look at 1 Corinthians 14. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

The ONLY way someone can understand the language spoken in tongues is through the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. They are both given by the same Holy Spirit.

Speaking in tongues when you are by yourself, is beneficial as you are praying the perfect will of God, for things only He knows about. But because He created us for fellowship, he gives us a gift to become part of the process, speaking in tongues. That goes for praise too. In our own language we could never come close to all the praise He deserves.

In church, Paul wants us to wait until someone receives a message FROM God that is unctioned to be presented in tongues, but only if the person that is known for having the gift of interpretation of tongues is present. Not everyone in the church is given this special use of tongues for receiving messages FROM God. But everyone should be able to pray in tongues TO God. So don't let anyone throw you off by saying "not everyone is meant to speak in tongues - period." And quote, 1 Cor. 12, 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

The answer of course is no, but these are like offices for the church, not for us in private.

 

[Phil 1:21]

As I have posted before in this thread, I don't see any tongues-affirming posters in this thread declaring that Tongues MUST accompany the salvation experience -- just that they CAN and DO -- that is NOT a MANDATE that Tongues are essential; everyone is aware that Paul wrote "do all speak with tongues?" and we take it as a rhetorical question with an assumed NO answer.

Actually, that’s the exact case the OP tries to make. Hopefully he has since realized the error of his assertion.

 

[Anto9us]

I posted earlier about a charismatic Episcopal church I used to go to where -- in the service -- they went completely "BY THE BOOK"; that is, the strictest guidelines in Corinthians about "no speaking in Tongues unless it is interpreted".

All things lawful, not all things expedient in Corinth WHERE THERE WERE KNOWN ISSUES with Tongues used unseemly.

I do not feel that charismatic/Pentecostal denominations are under any obligation to refrain from everyone praising TO GOD in their prayer languages -- I mean, they just DON'T -- everybody raises hands and praises in prayer language all at once and that's fine; it's not like anyone is PROCLAIMING A MESSAGE
TO THE CONGREGATION
that goes un-interpreted

diverse kinds of tongues
tongues of men and of angels

Acts 2 - the day of Pentecost - doesn't even scratch the surface of
the full range of Tongues that Paul wrote about and that still goes on today

No, "THAT WHICH IS PERFECT" has not come yet -- by no means -- anybody else expecting BETTER THINGS AHEAD when Jesus comes back?

 

[Anto9us]

Here is the OP in its entireity:

====================================
Absolutely !!!

Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues as the spirit gives direct undefileable contact with GOD !

Just as in the beginning ..Acts 2v4.. included Mary the mother of Jesus....

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (MUST)

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth....according to the word, to pray in the Spirit :

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


the first 2 is your part...the third is Gods seal of approval !

Holy Ghost + speaking in tongues .. no tongues no Spirit..

Ro 8:9 .............Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Not to be confused with the demonstration IN THE CHURCH (max 3) to show you are who you say you are !!
when you pray..go to your closet, private place and pray...


confess Jesus Christ..his way...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

package deal

obtain the Grace,Mercy and Faith that Jesus Christ has made avaliable to whomsoever will..

or have the adversaries religious confusion..just words no power !
====================================

It seems to me to be a response to some other, on-going thread, I don't know...

 

[Anto9us]

Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues

Even this is, from the OP -- is NOT THE SAME as saying "Tongues MUST accompany the salvation experience"

IT is saying Tongues is immediate outward evidence of "receiving the Holy Ghost"

And I don't see current tongues-affirmers in this thread even saying THAT -- and surely don't see any tongues-affirmers saying :

"Yer NOT SAVED if ya don't speak in Tongues"

What I DO SEE -- again and again -- from the "non-tongues-affirmers" (since they dance away from the Cessationist label)...

what I do see again and again in their posts is:

"The spiritual experience of you in this thread who claim to have a charismatic gift of Tongues -- your Spiritual Experience in INVALID !!"

And that is a real crock to have to hear and read again and again.

They mock by typing made-up, nonsensical words in posts.

They call God's gift GIBBERISH,
when in fact the only GIBBERISH is the postings of the tongues-nay-sayers themselves!

 

[Anto9us]

The Tongues-Nay-Sayers are not merely seeking to INVALIDATE the spiritual experience of a handful of posters in this thread on this little message board -- they in effect would invalidate the spiritual experience of MILLIONS of present day Christians along with MILLIONS asleep in Christ through the last 2000 years!!

MILLIONS !!

 

[swordsman1]

I said no such thing. Being baptized into the Spirit means being dead to sin. I've even written a book on tongues, not only to those who don't believe in tongues, but to those who say you MUST speak in tongues. You don't HAVE TO. But that doesn't mean you don't have the ability. You just don't know it, or care to use it. Every Christian can pray in tongues, but not every Christian receives a message in tongues from God that must be supernaturally interpreted. Thus, do all speak in tongues, do all interpret? No. Praying in tongues is similar, but the direction is TO God, not FROM God.

Mark 16:17 TO God. All who believe and are baptized, though you may receive the sign first, then follow in obedience to be baptized.
1 Cor. 12 FROM God. Like an office in the church. Not given to everyone, anymore than all are apostles

I'm afraid your interpretation of 1 Cor 12:29-30 is wrong. If you think "Do all speak in tongues?" is Paul saying we all have the ability to speak in tongues but some suppress that ability, then you must also say we all have the ability to be an apostle and a teacher and a miracle worker as well. In other words we are all super-human but choose to suppress those abilities.

No, read the passage in context. Paul has just given a lengthy discourse about the diversity of the gifts in 1 Cor 12:12-28, saying that just as each part of the human body has a different function, each member of the body of Christ has a different gift. He spells it out plainly in v8-10:

"For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. "​

And he reiterates it in Romans 12:4-6

"For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us."
​

Paul is clearly saying that not everyone has the same gift.

 

[swordsman1]

Hi Ken, Let me explain why I believe the prayer and praise language is a "sign," and more importantly when it comes to praying or praising in tongues, what type of sign. Not only does Mark 16:17 call it a sign as well as the others mentioned, but because it does not require the supernatural interpretation of tongues, (though interpretation of tongues can, at time, be allowed to interpret them as on the Day of Pentecost which the devout Jews received, and the mockers didn't IMO), if all speak in these uninterpreted tongues in a church service, and an uninformed or unsaved person comes in they will think everyone has gone mad (or mock as on the DofP when they thought the 120 were drunk).

The tongues of Acts 2, when people miraculously started speaking foreign languages they never learned, was a sign because like the other 1st century miracles mentioned in Mark 16 it attracted widespread attention and affirmed that God was with them. They knew a miracle of God had taken place and were then ready to hear what Peter had to say. The mockers didn't see it as a miracle because, being the local inhabitants, they did not recognize or understand foreign languages spoken.

Those signs in Mark 16 clearly don't apply to all believers, as not all believers are immune from being bitten by deadly snakes or from drinking poison.