The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[stuart lawrence]

Some people have a very strange understanding. They think if they don't get drunk, use foul language, have extra marital affairs or smoke, that is basically living a holy life.
Blind people. The people Jesus reserved his harshest words for were those who did not practice what they preached. They reeled the partial letter of scripture off making demands of the people they themselves did not adhere to.
They neither loved God, or their neighbour. But they did love the praise of men.
Those are fatal charges.
Those who tell you, you must obey the law, then demand of you what they do not demand of themselves, they constantly break the second most important commandment, the commandment Paul said is the fulfillment of the law.
Flee such people, or they will crush you with their demands, while they themselves carry on constantly sinning

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, this is really is not a loving and respectful response to the verse in Revelation I put forth, my friend. It says in Revelation that those who WORK abomination (sin) will not enter the holy city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth. I really do not see how OSAS or a sin and still be saved gospel works with this verse in Revelation.

As for your reference to the evil one:
1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil.
John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light unless their deeds should be reproved.
1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


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Would you rebuke Jesus for not giving loving responses when he told the religious pharisees they were:
Whitewashed tombs
Hypocrites
Liars
Sons if the devil
Sons of vipers
Etc

 

[stuart lawrence]

OUR OWN righteousness without the Holy Spirit, is as filthy rags, so yes. But if you think with the Holy Spirit, then you don't know the power of the Spirit."

Paul had the Holy Spirit:
Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law...
Phil3:9

 

[Dan61861]

Pride Jason...the devil and his children are self righteous.

Jason, I was responding to James 2:19

Saying it’s because of Pride Jason, the devil and his children are self righteous.

Notice, verse 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jason, you seem to ignore the works James is talking about.

James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

• We are not to Judge others by appearance. We are to help the poor.
• We are no respect of person.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

• We are to Love our neighbor as ourselves. Something Stuart and I have been screaming throughout the thread.

James2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

• Stuart and I have been shouting this throughout the thread. Even James is warning you, don't put yourself under the Law

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

• We are not under the Law, something Stuart and I have been shouting throughout the thread.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

• Wow mercy, something Stuart and I have been shouting throughout the thread.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

• Compassion, Feed the poor, cloth the poor.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

• What works is James talking about? Not the Works of the Law.

1. The works of Love, mercy and compassion.
2. Love for the poor
3. Love your Neighbor
4. mercy, it rejoiceth against judgment.
5. Compassion, Clothe and feed those in need.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

Galatians 5:14 does not say love God. It only says love your neighbor. This "loving your neighbor" was the fulfilling of the Old Law. Paul uses this as an example to show that the OT law is fulfilled by us loving others. But does not the OT also tell us to love God, too? It sure does. So Paul here is not saying that just loving your neighbor is all you need to do. That is not the point he is making. He is trying to get those who are into circumcision salvationism to follow the new ways of the New Covenant.

Also, just telling a person to love God and love their neighbor does not automatically mean they are loving God and loving their neighbor according to God's Word. The rest of the detailed commands fills us in as how to properly love God and our neighbor.


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Jesus command was to pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin. I'm sure you wouldn't claim your eye has never caused you to sin in thought or deed. So are you physically blind Jason? Have you gouged out your eyes so you may enter heaven?

You Keep stating:
If we love Jesus we will obey his commands
Anyone who does not obey his commands is a liar and the truth is not in him
Unless we repent of sin we are condemned
Have you repented daily for not obeying Christ and gouging out your eyes?
Is the truth not in you for failing to gouge out your eyes?
Does it prove you are a liar and you don't love Christ?

Can you not see where your wooden literalist quoting of the letter leads you? Are you blind to that?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So when you bear false witness, and refuse to repent of it, where does that leave you?
And when you lie and refuse to acknowledge it, saying you don't remember what you have stated on numerous occasions, where does that leave you?

So you remember everything you have said exactly that you have repeatedly said on a forum before?
Maybe your memory is better than mine. Let's be thankful for God for that.
But I asked you to show me the post # and you refused.
So you are simply acting childish and not honorable in any way.

It's always the same with people who like to stress it us what the individual must do to be saved. They don't practice what they preach/ demand of others, and simply excuse and justify their own sin as no sin at all. In truth Jason, you are the one who is Antinomian, not me, Dan, or tobeloved

Antinomianism is the belief that the moral law does not apply to one's good standing with God. Far as I understood, you, Dan, and ToBeLoved all believe that the keeping of the moral law has nothing to do with one's salvation. Although, you will also double talk (i.e. the double message of Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved gospel) and say that a believer will generally live holy. How you define this holiness is simply a mystery. While those in your camp will say that a believer will be more Christ like, this really is not the case because you all believe 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that you will always be in sin. This means one is enslaved to their sin. Jesus has not set the captives free. Yet, with Jesus, many have stopped sinning. Now, I know, you have a cover story for that. You will say how someone you know has stopped sinning when they first accepted Christ. But what about now? How is their spiritual life now? Are they enslaved to sin or set free from it? Even if you and others in your camp were to live holy, it is still not morally correct because your main message is making people think they can use God's grace as a license to sin (Even though you say later that this is not the case). For if you do not stress that a believer must live holy every time you preach your version of the gospel, you are giving people the wrong impression about God's grace.



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[stuart lawrence]

So you remember everything you have said exactly that you have repeatedly said on a forum before?
Maybe your memory is better than mine. Let's be thankful for God for that.
But I asked you to show me the post # and you refused.
So you are simply acting childish and not honorable in any way.



Antinomianism is the belief that the moral law does not apply to one's good standing with God. Far as I understood, you, Dan, and ToBeLoved all believe that the keeping of the moral law has nothing to do with one's salvation. Although, you will also double talk (i.e. the double message of Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved gospel) and say that a believer will generally live holy. How you define this holiness is simply a mystery. While those in your camp will say that a believer will be more Christ like, this really is not the case because you all believe 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that you will always be in sin. This means one is enslaved to their sin. Jesus has not set the captives free. Yet, with Jesus, many have stopped sinning. Now, I know, you have a cover story for that. You will say how someone you know has stopped sinning when they first accepted Christ. But what about now? How is their spiritual life now? Are they enslaved to sin or set free from it? Even if you and others in your camp were to live holy, it is still not morally correct because your main message is making people think they can use God's grace as a license to sin (Even though you say later that this is not the case). For if you do not stress that a believer must live holy every time you preach your version of the gospel, you are giving people the wrong impression about God's grace.



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Antinomianism is excusing sin as I understand it, or denying you sin when you do. In that context it is you who is Antinomian not us.
Anything I have repeatedly stated that is a core belief of mine I would remember, as would you or anyone else

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What makes you so sure that Jason doesn't obey all of Christ's commands? What do you know of for sure that Jason has done? Assumptions don't count.

I make sure I obey those commands where the punishment leads to spiritual death (like not hating, not lying, not looking at others in lust, helping the poor, etc.). Other commands like "pray without ceasing", "bear with them that preach another Jesus," and others like it (that make no mention of spiritual death if they are disobeyed) while important to me, do not take the priority of the focus of my life currently because I am still learning more about these smaller (but important) commands in the New Testament. It takes a lot of time just to study and apply all of these commands in the New Testament. It is not an overnight process.


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[stuart lawrence]

I make sure I obey those commands where the punishment leads to spiritual death (like not hating, not lying, not looking at others in lust, helping the poor, etc.). Other commands like "pray without ceasing", "bear with them that preach another Jesus," and others like it (that make no mention of spiritual death if they are disobeyed) while important to me, do not take the priority of the focus of my life currently because I am still learning more about these smaller (but important) commands in the New Testament. It takes a lot of time just to study and apply all of these commands in the New Testament. It is not an overnight process.


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So under your law of righteousness you can only be bothered to obey commands you believe will condemn you if you break them?
Hmmm

So bearing false witness is ok. If you break that command it won't condemn you.
I see where your logic lies

 

[1stcenturylady]

Can your flesh please God?

It is God that washes us white as snow. It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed onto us that makes us righteous. We believe in Christ. Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness. Abraham looked forward to his redeemer, we look back towards are redeemer. Christ is that redeemer.

In Christ
Daniel

Do you not know the scriptures on our flesh either and again, the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Antinomianism is excusing sin as I understand it, or denying you sin when you do. In that context it is you who is Antinomian not us.
Anything I have repeatedly stated that is a core belief of mine I would remember, as would you or anyone else

There are sins that lead to spiritual death and there are sins that do not lead to spiritual death (1 John 5:16-17). We know these are sins that relate to the spiritual realm of one's right standing with God because how would a believer know if a person is committing a sin that leads to physical death? Is this every time a believer gets sick? Are we to assume that righteous people never get sick and cannot be on death's door?

Also, again, you, Dan, and ToBeLoved have stated numerous times that you do not have to obey the moral law so as to be right with God. You believe that it is your belief on Jesus alone that saves you. I believe that keeping the moral law is necessary as a part of one's right standing with God. Minor transgressions like not taking out the garbage last week, or going over the speed limit a little is not going to condemn a believer. Not all sins lead to spiritual death. There are degrees of sin (Which you prefer to ignore). For there are unforgiveable sins even. Jesus says, there is a greater sin. Jesus said the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law.

Jesus made it very clear that disobedience to certain commands leads to spiritual death (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:14-30, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:26).


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[1stcenturylady]

I make sure I obey those commands where the punishment leads to spiritual death (like not hating, not lying, not looking at others in lust, helping the poor, etc.). Other commands like "pray without ceasing", "bear with them that preach another Jesus," and others like it (that make no mention of spiritual death if they are disobeyed) while important to me, do not take the priority of the focus of my life currently because I am still learning more about these smaller (but important) commands in the New Testament. It takes a lot of time just to study and apply all of these commands in the New Testament. It is not an overnight process.


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Pray without ceasing doesn't mean on your knees. It means you're conscious of God all the time, listening for His leading - for Him to speak, as prayer is a two way conversation. Pondering scripture where the Holy Spirit gives revelation. Being lead how to handle people with love, in person or on the internet. All this is prayer - communication with the Holy Spirit.

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are sins that lead to spiritual death and there are sins that do not lead to spiritual death (1 John 5:16-17). We know these are sins that relate to the spiritual realm of one's right standing with God because how would a believer know if a person is committing a sin that leads to physical death? Is this every time a believer gets sick? Are we to assume that righteous people never get sick and cannot be on death's door?

Also, again, you, Dan, and ToBeLoved have stated numerous times that you do not have to obey the moral law so as to be right with God. You believe that it is your belief on Jesus alone that saves you. I believe that keeping the moral law is necessary as a part of one's right standing with God. Minor transgressions like not taking out the garbage last week, or going over the speed limit a little is not going to condemn a believer. Not all sins lead to spiritual death. There are degrees of sin (Which you prefer to ignore). For there are unforgiveable sins even. Jesus says, there is a greater sin. Jesus said the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law.

Jesus made it very clear that disobedience to certain commands leads to spiritual death (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:14-30, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:26).


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Under a law of righteousness you have to faultlessly obey the law to be righteous/ justified before God.
You cannot obey some of the law and that entitles you to be righteous, you have to obey all of it.
As you admit you don't. According to your belief, you are not righteous/ justified before God

 

[1stcenturylady]

Paul had the Holy Spirit:
Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law...
Phil3:9

Read the rest

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Loving God and your neighbour only fulfilled the old law, not NC law/ commands.
Where did you get that idea from?

Look at the context. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law (or New Covenant Laws or Commands). Paul is trying to tell them to love their neighbor as a fulfillment of the Old so as to get them to move on to the New. He does not want them to focus on the Old ways of circumcision salvationism. Paul makes this point again in Romans 13. He says that loving one's neighbor, they will fulfill the Old law of "do not covet", "do not kill", etc. Romans 13 comes off the heels of Romans 9-11 that is a chapter focused on Israel and their salvation. Currently Israel is following the Old ways like cirumcision, etc.


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[stuart lawrence]

Our own righteousness without the Holy Spirit, is as filthy rags
"

You don't have a righteousness of your own, with the Holy Spirit. Your righteousness is faith in Christ. Paul differentiated between the two

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Under a law of righteousness you have to faultlessly obey the law to be righteous/ justified before God.
You cannot obey some of the law and that entitles you to be righteous, you have to obey all of it.
As you admit you don't. According to your belief, you are not righteous/ justified before God

I did not write 1 John 5:16-17. Take it up with God if you do not like it.


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[stuart lawrence]

Look at the context. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law (or New Covenant Laws or Commands). Paul is trying to tell them to love their neighbor as a fulfillment of the Old so as to get them to move on to the New. He does not want them to focus on the Old ways of circumcision salvationism. Paul makes this point again in Romans 13. He says that loving one's neighbor, they will fulfill the Old law of "do not covet", "do not kill", etc. Romans 13 comes off the heels of Romans 9-11 that is a chapter focused on Israel and their salvation. Currently Israel is following the Old ways like cirumcision, etc.


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Reread my post quoting rom8:9&10

Paul clearly states WHATEVER commands there might be are fulfilled by love.

You will have to twist scripture once agaun won't you

 

[1stcenturylady]

Under a law of righteousness you have to faultlessly obey the law to be righteous/ justified before God.
You cannot obey some of the law and that entitles you to be righteous, you have to obey all of it.
As you admit you don't. According to your belief, you are not righteous/ justified before God

Stuart, we are righteous if all our sins are forgiven. Jason walks in the light, so the only sins he commits are those he commits WHILE walking in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. 1 John 1:7

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul had the Holy Spirit:
Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law...
Phil3:9

Read the rest

Just so that you understand where I am coming from:
I believe this is talking about the Old Law. Also, in Philippians Paul is recounting his experience of being within the "False Pharisee Religion", as well.

The word "law" is usually surrounded by talk about circumcision or the Law of Moses and not all law in general or New Covenant Law. In fact, the commands or laws in the New Testament were not even completely written out yet when Paul was writing to the various different churches.


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