On Free Will

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Jennifer Rothnie

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Are you backtracking? Earlier you said that those who enter through the gate are sheep. Can those who are not sheep enter through the gate?

Jesus uses several analogies in John 10. He uses various symbols to refer to the same person or group across them. For example, Jesus is 'the gate' in John 10:7-10, and the 'shepherd' in other analogies.

In John 10:1-4 He is not the gate, but rather the shepherd, and the gatekeeper opens the gate for Jesus to come through. Presumably, the gatekeeper can enter as well (especially as the gatekeeper likely represents God (Acts 14:27.) Jesus' point in this first section is that the Pharisees are 'robbers' and 'thieves,' for they do not enter by the gate. Jesus is not making a claim that some people and not others have the ability to enter the gate - it isn't the point of the analogy. His authenticity is.

In John 10:11-13 Jesus mentions non-sheep that might potentially enter the fold - wolves and the hired hand. There is no mention of the 'gate' in this section, since it is not a relevant symbol for his point. His point is that the hired hand abandons the flock while the wolf scatters it, but the true shepherd would give up his own life. (Indeed, the sheep in this section represent Israel, not believers, as the Pharisees were supposed to shepherd the flock of Israel, but were forgetting that they were mere 'hired hands' by God.)

In John 10:14-18, Jesus gives an analogy based solely on the shepherd and the sheep. He mentions the sheep who know Him (such as His disciples) and the sheep not currently of the fold that must be brought in to make one flock. The outside sheep only become followers of the shepherd if they follow Christ's lead and join His sheep pen. This analogy has corporate overtones of the Gentiles being led to Christ by the gospel, Jewish and Gentile believers being united in one flock. (Gal 3:27-29) Jesus uses the symbol of sheep to emphasize this point.

This chapter has a lot of tie-in with the prophecy of Ezek 34:

"...Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? ...So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.  ‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.  ‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
“ ‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
 ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken....You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’ ”

While a different analogy with slightly different symbolism, without mention of a gate, Ezek 34 mentions rams and goats in with the sheep, as well as even differences between the sheep. In its symbolism, the religious teachers of Israel are viewed as both bad hired shepherds, fat sheep, goats, etc.

None of the points that Jesus is making in John 10 include a teaching that specific individuals are destined to be sheep that come to His fold while other specific individuals remain either sheep outside the fold or other characters (robbers, wolves, etc.) Again, He speaks prophetically - that He will reach out to the Gentiles (happened by His death) and believers will come into His fold to be part of the one flock.
 
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Jesus uses several analogies in John 10. He uses various symbols to refer to the same person or group across them. For example, Jesus is 'the gate' in John 10:7-10, and the 'shepherd' in other analogies.

In John 10:1-4 He is not the gate, but rather the shepherd, and the gatekeeper opens the gate for Jesus to come through. Presumably, the gatekeeper can enter as well (especially as the gatekeeper likely represents God (Acts 14:27.) Jesus' point in this first section is that the Pharisees are 'robbers' and 'thieves,' for they do not enter by the gate. Jesus is not making a claim that some people and not others have the ability to enter the gate - it isn't the point of the analogy. His authenticity is.

In John 10:11-13 Jesus mentions non-sheep that might potentially enter the fold - wolves and the hired hand. There is no mention of the 'gate' in this section, since it is not a relevant symbol for his point. His point is that the hired hand abandons the flock while the wolf scatters it, but the true shepherd would give up his own life. (Indeed, the sheep in this section represent Israel, not believers, as the Pharisees were supposed to shepherd the flock of Israel, but were forgetting that they were mere 'hired hands' by God.)

In John 10:14-18, Jesus gives an analogy based solely on the shepherd and the sheep. He mentions the sheep who know Him (such as His disciples) and the sheep not currently of the fold that must be brought in to make one flock. The outside sheep only become followers of the shepherd if they follow Christ's lead and join His sheep pen. This analogy has corporate overtones of the Gentiles being led to Christ by the gospel, Jewish and Gentile believers being united in one flock. (Gal 3:27-29) Jesus uses the symbol of sheep to emphasize this point.

This chapter has a lot of tie-in with the prophecy of Ezek 34:

"...Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? ...So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.  ‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.  ‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
“ ‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
 ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken....You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’ ”

While a different analogy with slightly different symbolism, without mention of a gate, Ezek 34 mentions rams and goats in with the sheep, as well as even differences between the sheep. In its symbolism, the religious teachers of Israel are viewed as both bad hired shepherds, fat sheep, goats, etc.

None of the points that Jesus is making in John 10 include a teaching that specific individuals are destined to be sheep that come to His fold while other specific individuals remain either sheep outside the fold or other characters (robbers, wolves, etc.) Again, He speaks prophetically - that He will reach out to the Gentiles (happened by His death) and believers will come into His fold to be part of the one flock.
Again, you did a lot of work, and said nothing that opposes my point, really. In all of the analogies, the sheep are still Jesus'. Where you err is that your seem to think that there are sheep who do not belong to Christ, and will never be part of the flock.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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They got to stay because they were chosen. But where does it say they were chosen because they changed?

They literally change clothing in Matt 22:1-14. No one was wearing wedding garments pre-invite. Most invited kept doing ordinary business in their ordinary garb - some even killed the servants.

When the invitation is opened to all, both bad and good, many then come to the wedding.

Now, the custom was that the king would -provide- the guests with garb for a royal wedding. This isn't people off the street trying to dress in their finest before coming - this is people off the street coming, stripping off their own poor garb, and donning the regal garb provided by the king.

Symbolically, it represents responding to the invitation of the gospel in faith, taking off the old self and putting on the righteousness of Christ.

Yet when the king comes to inspect the guests, one is not wearing the proffered garb. The man has no excuse, he is speechless. He tried to get in without replacing his own garments with the kings. He didn't change; didn't put off his filthy rags and replace them with the righteousness of Christ, and was hence cast out into darkness. Though invited, even coming to the feast, he wasn't chosen as he did not take the proffered gift and change into it.
 
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They literally change clothing in Matt 22:1-14. No one was wearing wedding garments pre-invite. Most invited kept doing ordinary business in their ordinary garb - some even killed the servants.

When the invitation is opened to all, both bad and good, many then come to the wedding.

Now, the custom was that the king would -provide- the guests with garb for a royal wedding. This isn't people off the street trying to dress in their finest before coming - this is people off the street coming, stripping off their own poor garb, and donning the regal garb provided by the king.

Symbolically, it represents responding to the invitation of the gospel in faith, taking off the old self and putting on the righteousness of Christ.

Yet when the king comes to inspect the guests, one is not wearing the proffered garb. The man has no excuse, he is speechless. He tried to get in without replacing his own garments with the kings. He didn't change; didn't put off his filthy rags and replace them with the righteousness of Christ, and was hence cast out into darkness. Though invited, even coming to the feast, he wasn't chosen as he did not take the proffered gift and change into it.
All of the guests were gathered. None of them came willingly. If they had, they wouldn't have needed to be gathered.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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Paul is talking about all who are capable of sinning and have chosen to sin. Infants are not capable of sinning. Christ as an adult was capable of sinning but chose not to.
What is the requirement to be justified in God's eyes? Faith in Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Again, you did a lot of work, and said nothing that opposes my point, really. In all of the analogies, the sheep are still Jesus'. Where you err is that your seem to think that there are sheep who do not belong to Christ, and will never be part of the flock.

Where do you see Jesus' symbology as negating the existence of other sheep and other flocks? In real life, does the existence of one shepherd mean no other shepherd can logically exist? In real life, does the existence of one sheep pen mean no other sheep pens exist? Does one shepherd merging sheep from two different pens, or bringing together scattered sheep into one flock under himself, mean no other sheep exist? If reality itself doesn't demand any such exclusion, why would an analogy? That's not even extrapolating off other traits of sheep - it's making up comparisons that literally refute the basis of the analogy.

For the purposes of Jesus' various analogies in John 10, the sheep represent at times Israel (believers and unbelievers both), His (Jewish believers), and true Israel (believers, both Jew and Gentile.)

Does the existence of the nation of Israel mean no other nation can exist? Does the existence of Jewish believers mean Jewish non-believers cannot exist? Does the existence of Jewish and Gentile believers automatically mean non-believers can't exist?

Jesus says, "My sheep listen to my voice" - not "sheep listen to my voice." In the John 10 analogies, the sheep do not change species when they enter the gate for the first time, they change ownership. Only the sheep within the gate under the true shepherd are saved. Jesus' use of different symbols isn't to teach that Pharisees can never be saved, but that true sheep listen to the voice of the true shepherd.

- Being a sheep doesn't logically mandate that one will become a part of Jesus' flock. It's beyond the scope of the analogies to speculate.
- Being one of Christ's sheep means you have entered through the gate, by His leading, to become part of His flock.
- Prophetically, Jesus speaks of having yet other sheep that He will lead in. That doesn't mandate the actions of individuals any more than me saying, "There are some students who will graduate this year under the teaching of Prof. Z' mandates that certain specific students must graduate while other specific students must drop out.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Paul is talking about all who are capable of sinning and have chosen to sin. Infants are not capable of sinning. Christ as an adult was capable of sinning but chose not to.

It seems that infants in your neck of the woods are different than the ones here.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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All of the guests were gathered. None of them came willingly. If they had, they wouldn't have needed to be gathered.

"So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests."

The greek sunagó means, "To lead (or bring) together," such as 'collect, assemble, gather, receive with hospitality, entertain.' It's a term of hospitality in this case, such as in Matt 25:35.

'Invite' 'receive with hospitality' 'guests' - which of these terms denote force or the inability to turn down the invitation? The others who were invited refused, many abusing or even killing the servants. The 'street people' who were invited last did not refuse.
 
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Hammster

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Where do you see Jesus' symbology as negating the existence of other sheep and other flocks? In real life, does the existence of one shepherd mean no other shepherd can logically exist? In real life, does the existence of one sheep pen mean no other sheep pens exist? Does one shepherd merging sheep from two different pens, or bringing together scattered sheep into one flock under himself, mean no other sheep exist? If reality itself doesn't demand any such exclusion, why would an analogy? That's not even extrapolating off other traits of sheep - it's making up comparisons that literally refute the basis of the analogy.

For the purposes of Jesus' various analogies in John 10, the sheep represent at times Israel (believers and unbelievers both), His (Jewish believers), and true Israel (believers, both Jew and Gentile.)

Does the existence of the nation of Israel mean no other nation can exist? Does the existence of Jewish believers mean Jewish non-believers cannot exist? Does the existence of Jewish and Gentile believers automatically mean non-believers can't exist?

Jesus says, "My sheep listen to my voice" - not "sheep listen to my voice." In the John 10 analogies, the sheep do not change species when they enter the gate for the first time, they change ownership. Only the sheep within the gate under the true shepherd are saved. Jesus' use of different symbols isn't to teach that Pharisees can never be saved, but that true sheep listen to the voice of the true shepherd.

- Being a sheep doesn't logically mandate that one will become a part of Jesus' flock. It's beyond the scope of the analogies to speculate.
- Being one of Christ's sheep means you have entered through the gate, by His leading, to become part of His flock.
- Prophetically, Jesus speaks of having yet other sheep that He will lead in. That doesn't mandate the actions of individuals any more than me saying, "There are some students who will graduate this year under the teaching of Prof. Z' mandates that certain specific students must graduate while other specific students must drop out.
I would address this if you would have at least somewhat responded to my views.
 
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Wordkeeper

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God is in control of His wrath, correct?


God upholds the Law, His Instructions and Rules.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Olam HaTorah - The World of the Torah

Quote
Now in the Jewish tradition, the moral law is often equated with the Torah of Moses, that is, the 613 specific mitzvot, mishpatim, and chukkim that are found in the collective writings of Moses. In the rabbinical tradition, these various commandments, judgments, and decrees are further supplemented and defined by the "Oral Law," which is likewise considered binding on the observant Jew. In fact, in some Orthodox traditions of Judaism, the claim goes even further, in that G-d Himself is bound to the Torah of Moses in a way that an engineer is bound to the finished blueprints of an architect.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Don't be scared, everything will be alright :

Matthew 19:21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."


Okay, long discussion coming up.

Answer
No.

I think a direct quote from Jesus is in order here.

"They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger." (Matt 23:4)
 
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Wordkeeper

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I think a direct quote from Jesus is in order here.

"They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger." (Matt 23:4)


Luke 14: 28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


What is the house?
 
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Hammster

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God upholds the Law, His Instructions and Rules.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Olam HaTorah - The World of the Torah

Quote
Now in the Jewish tradition, the moral law is often equated with the Torah of Moses, that is, the 613 specific mitzvot, mishpatim, and chukkim that are found in the collective writings of Moses. In the rabbinical tradition, these various commandments, judgments, and decrees are further supplemented and defined by the "Oral Law," which is likewise considered binding on the observant Jew. In fact, in some Orthodox traditions of Judaism, the claim goes even further, in that G-d Himself is bound to the Torah of Moses in a way that an engineer is bound to the finished blueprints of an architect.
Once again, your post has nothing to do with my quote. :doh:
 
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Hammster

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Luke 14: 28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


What is the house?
It's a place where people live, generally.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Once again, your post has nothing to do with my quote. :doh:

You were implying God can use His discretion to wreak or withhold His wrath.

God is just. He follows His own Law. Else all His commands would be reduced to a nullity.

When we disobey, disbelieve, His wrath cannot be avoided, else the writer of Hebrews 4 would not teach us not to disobey.
 
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Hammster

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You were implying God can use His discretion to wreak or withhold His wrath.

God is just. He follows His own Law. Else all His commands would be reduced to a nullity.

When we disobey, disbelieve, His wrath cannot be avoided, else the writer of Hebrews 4 would not teach us not to disobey.
Since you can't even seem to stay on topic on these side discussions, I'm at a loss. I don't want to have to quote everything just to get back in the right direction.
 
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