Amos 3:7, the New Testament & the Commandments

[listed]

Just giving some food for thought on the thread.

I thought the verses in Isaiah might be a close reference to what the OP was referring to, in that it tells of the New Covenant

And in saying "But John 14:15" im saying im not sure i would agree that the commandments were done away with.

Then what would you say those "My commandments" in the verse are?

 

[BobRyan]

Then what would you say those "My commandments" in the verse are?

God's Commandments include God's TEN Commandments. And Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai - as we see in Hebrews 8... noted in the post below.

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

The TEN Commandments -

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - AND - the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:6-10
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Those who attempt to blame these texts on "SDAs" forget that in fact the majority of pro-sunday scholars affirm that the "Commandments of God" include God's TEN Commandments.

A Bible detail so incredibly obvious - BOTH sides admit to it. "It just does not GET any easier than this!"

(It took me about 75 seconds to see the light on this detail)

 

[BobRyan]

Just giving some food for thought on the thread.

I thought the verses in Isaiah might be a close reference to what the OP was referring to, in that it tells of the New Covenant

And in saying "But John 14:15" im saying im not sure i would agree that the commandments were done away with.

The New Covenant as detailed in Jeremiah 31:31-33 includes the "LAW of God" known to Jeremiah. And still "unchanged" in Hebrews 8:6-10 where we find that it is CHRIST that speaks the TEN Commandments at Sinai.

 

[listed]

Is the spirit contrary to the law? I thought the law was spiritual according to Paul?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. (Law defines sin)

Roman 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it isno longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (The inward man is of good spirit serving the law but the flesh does not keep the law)

Romans 8:6 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Spirit doesn't lead a person to the law. Galatians 5:18

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[BobRyan]

The Spirit doesn't lead a person to the law.

Until you read the New Covenant and Romans 8:4-10

And find that in Romans 6 "not being under the LAW" includes choosing not to SIN - where "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4, for "The one whom you obey - that one is your master"

 

[listed]

Until you read the actual texts and notice 'the details" showing that the Ten Commandments are in fact clearly included...

You've yet to back up what you say with any proof. So what you say is mere hear say as they would say in court.

 

[listed]

Bob- if you have been lead to believe that Paul is anti law that is how you will choose to read Him. Paul is not anti law we have a warning in second Peter that warns us not to misunderstand Paul and be lead away by the lawless. Paul is however against the idea that we attain our own rightousness by keeping the law apart from Christ. God never intended us to be so prideful and believing it is by our own rightousness that we are given His promises he mentioned that to the Isrealites in Dueteronomy 9 as well.

The law is from God therefore it is spiritual and the flesh is contrary to it, this is the stuggle, or as my teenager likes to say "the struggle is real"

Through Christ we are given a new Spirit one that desires the things of God, now we desire to draw close to Him by desiring to do the things that He declares as rightous. We are grieved by the things we do that are not of God because of the new Spirit within us.


Rightousness is rightousness and lawlessness is lawlessness. It is not our place to define sin. If we try to define sin we are being lead by the dictates of our own heart, God is the only one who difines sin by His law. If God says it's sin it is sin and the Bible says He changes not.

Paul is neutral to negative on the law. Paul doesn't promote the law anywhere. Paul says no to the law by the following verse from Romans 7:6:

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul also says to throw out the law in Galatians 4:30.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

He even says those who keep the law won't inherit eternal life in the same verse. It looks to me you're down the creek with no paddle trying to get up the creek.

 

[listed]

God's Commandments include God's TEN Commandments. And Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai - as we see in Hebrews 8... noted in the post below.

No it doesn't say that for the Christian. You've been quoted lots of passages saying otherwise. I suppose you will also ignore 1 John 3:23, too.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[listed]

The New Covenant as detailed in Jeremiah 31:31-33 includes the "LAW of God" known to Jeremiah. And still "unchanged" in Hebrews 8:6-10 where we find that it is CHRIST that speaks the TEN Commandments at Sinai.

The passage doesn't include the law given to Israel. Verse 32 is very specific and clear.

 

[listed]

Until you read the New Covenant and Romans 8:4-10

And find that in Romans 6 "not being under the LAW" includes choosing not to SIN - where "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4, for "The one whom you obey - that one is your master"

Are you claiming my verse is a fraud?

 

[Bob S]

Bob- if you have been lead to believe that Paul is anti law that is how you will choose to read Him.

Why are you putting words in my mouth friend. Where have I ever indicated that Paul was "anti law"? Paul clearly indicates that the law only lasted as long as there was a covenant relationship. If you cannot see that then you are completely blind to the scriptures. The plan of salvation was for Jesus to come and redeem mankind. Torah WAS part of the plan. Torah ended with the ratification of the new covenant. The old is history John. Just because Paul wrote that the law ended does not make him anti law. New covenant Christians are under the Royal Law of Love. That is pure and simple. You have been taught a bill of goods just as I was. Again I will write that the Torah was not for salvation in the first place. It was 613 laws given to Israel by God for their well being. Rules for living in the land of Canaan. Torah had nothing to do with salvation. I live in the state of Tennessee and we have laws we have to live by. My obeying the laws of Tennessee will not get me one step closer to salvation than Torah did for Israel.

 

[1John2:4]

What commandments are "My commandments" in your quote from John?

I believe John (Yokanon) who was Jewish believed in the prophecies that the Law would come out of Zion, Isaiah 2:3 Michah 4:2. So if you will notice when John speaks of Yeshua - Jesus, he refers to Him as the Word became flesh that is the Law that came from Zion. One may think that this Gospel differs from the synoptic gossples, but I do not think it really does if you take in context that the word made flesh is this same Law prophecied about in Isaiah and Amos. Believing in Jesus is believing what He is in the entire Word Genisis to Revelation. No where is it prophecied that God would send His Servant or the Son of Man or whatever title He is given in prophecy by the prophets do away with God's law. He was always to come and save us from sin. If you believe that the gospel account by John and Revelation has the same writer you will find contradiction. There is no contradiction between the synoptic gosples or Revelation or John. Yeshua IS the Word made flesh and to believe is to believe that He is the one prophecied about who did NOT come to do away with the Father's commandments but to establish them. Yes, including the Shabbat The Father's commandments are the Sons commandments and to believe is to follow, to walk as He walked. This was the same for Abraham he kept God's instuctions and God knew that he would teach them to his children and his children's children and they would have faith. Genisis 18:19 This is the same God gave them to His Son who gives them to us to guard and protect.

John 1 We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life. 2 This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.3 We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We are writing these things so that you may fully share our joy.

Living in the Light
5 This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

 

[1John2:4]

Paul is neutral to negative on the law. Paul doesn't promote the law anywhere. Pauls says not o the law by the following verse from Romans 7:6:
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul also says to throw out the law in Galatians 4:30.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

He even says those who keep the law won't inherit eternal life in the same verse. It looks to me you're down the creek with no paddle trying to get up the creek.

Where exactly does he say that those who keep the law won't inherit eternal life?

Accepting Jesus is the new Covenant and none can enter in without Him. The new Covent is a marriage Covenant and if one clings to the old Covenant the law written on stone then they would be married to one that is dead. We must enter the new Covenant through Yeshua in order to partake of the promise this does not do away with the law because in the new Covenant His instructions are to be written on our inward parts not abolished. That is why Paul writes to those who know the law because of the marriage Covent within the law in order demistrate the 2 Covenants.

 

[1John2:4]

Why are you putting words in my mouth friend. Where have I ever indicated that Paul was "anti law"? Paul clearly indicates that the law only lasted as long as there was a covenant relationship. If you cannot see that then you are completely blind to the scriptures. The plan of salvation was for Jesus to come and redeem mankind. Torah WAS part of the plan. Torah ended with the ratification of the new covenant. The old is history John. Just because Paul wrote that the law ended does not make him anti law. New covenant Christians are under the Royal Law of Love. That is pure and simple. You have been taught a bill of goods just as I was. Again I will write that the Torah was not for salvation in the first place. It was 613 laws given to Israel by God for their well being. Rules for living in the land of Canaan. Torah had nothing to do with salvation. I live in the state of Tennessee and we have laws we have to live by. My obeying the laws of Tennessee will not get me one step closer to salvation than Torah did for Israel.

I apologise for putting words in your mouth, the new Covenant was to put His laws on our inward parts. I don't believe that only some of His laws are placed on our inward parts and because of our own understanding we decide whether or not they are moral. I believe if we love God we will choose to follow all of His instuctions at least the ones we can do until His return. The law is spiritual Paul said that and we are constantly at war with our flesh which is against His law we must overcome and we can through the blood of Jesus if we cry out to Him with a humble heart and confess our lawlessness He promises He will forgive.

 

[1John2:4]

Amen!

Perfectly clear!

Thank you for the encouragement

 

[bugkiller]

What commandments are "My commandments" in your quote from John?

Other people besides me also want to know, too.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Where exactly does he say that those who keep the law won't inherit eternal life?

Accepting Jesus is the new Covenant and none can enter in without Him. The new Covent is a marriage Covenant and if one clings to the old Covenant the law written on stone then they would be married to one that is dead. We must enter the new Covenant through Yeshua in order to partake of the promise this does not do away with the law because in the new Covenant His instructions are to be written on our inward parts not abolished. That is why Paul writes to those who know the law because of the marriage Covent within the law in order demistrate the 2 Covenants.

So I do not understand why you cling to the covenant issued to Israel. Your post really sounds like double speak.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

So I do not understand why you cling to the covenant issued to Israel.

The NEW Covenant? "made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" Hebrews 8:6-10..??? is that the part you say you do not understand??

 

[BobRyan]

Where exactly does he say that those who keep the law won't inherit eternal life? .

Romans 2:13-16 says the opposite as I am sure we both agree.

 

[BobRyan]

listed said: ↑
What commandments are "My commandments" in your quote from John?

hmmmm.... let's see what was just posted as the answer to that..

In Matt 5 Jesus rejects the suggestion that his mission is to dismiss or downsize God's Commandments. He even condemns those who teach against God's Commandments.


Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - AND - the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:6-10
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

And since as we see in Heb 8 - Jesus is the one giving the TEN Commandments - speaking at Sinai... "If you Love ME KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 as a direct quote of "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Exodus 20:6 is perfectly explained for all to see - even the majority of pro-Sunday Scholarship agrees to this Bible detail.

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

the majority of pro-sunday scholars affirm that the "Commandments of God" include God's TEN Commandments.

A Bible detail so incredibly obvious - BOTH sides admit to it. "It just does not GET any easier than this!"

Just as expected - even by the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship. Both sides agree on this Bible detail affirming all TEN of God's TEN commandments... "it just does not GET any easier than this"

Other people besides me also want to know, too.
bugkiller

How nice that this has all worked out so well in that case.