Universalism...why not?

[sdowney717]

We are both acknowledging Grace, Faith and Works are involved.
And, we are both recognizing ALL that we are, know and feel, comes from Jehovah/YHVH God.
It SEEMS that the disconnect between us is, how MUCH responsibility the believer has.
God has created the universe, including you and me.
God has provided His spirit: His thinking, wisdom, values, plan of salvation and the power produced by His mind.
God has provided His "holy servant" Jesus, who gave his life for the sins of humanity, and God is willing to count that one man's death, as adequate payment for BILLIONS of sinners, and BILLIONS of sins ..... IF (and only IF).. the sinner believes and obeys Him .... and that reality is horrible math, but it is AMAZING GRACE!!
No human being, Jesus included, can take credit for ANY of God's plan. It is God's creation, God's plan of salvation, God's wisdom, God's righteousness, God's justice, etc.
That being said, it is still OUR responsibility to seek Him, and obey Him. God will cover for what we CANNOT do, but we STILL have to DO! We have to choose. We have to believe. We have to obey, and when we fail to obey, we have to repent and pray for forgiveness;
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Of course, God commands all men every to repent and believe in Christ.
But the only ones that do are those He has foreknown as His own people.
And the reason they believe is The Holy Spirit teaches them, because they are regenerated and the evil old heart has been replaced. You can not enter the kingdom of God without first being regenerated, born again, then you will respond to the Holy Spirit because you are a spiritually alive person no longer spiritually dead. Plenty of Jews in Christ's time resisted the gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit and all them that resist Him persisting in unbelief God will destroy.

John 1, all those that did receive Him did so because they were born of God. The emphasis should be understood that they were not born of the will of the flesh, or the will of the man, but of God they were born. God did that for us while we were still following the prince of the power of the air, Satan, because of the great love He had for us, he made us alive who were dead. It was not our will to be born of God, it was His will that we be born of God even while following the devil, such great magnificent love does He have for those He foreknew he did also predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

So then everyone who believes does so because they have been born of God, everyone who believes is born of God. And all those who are born of God overcome the world by their faith, because God has sanctified them by faith in Christ.

And Christ says of those who come to Him, that they come because of God's power at work within them.
The deeds done in God, so God is the originator. HE is after all, the author and finisher of our faith...
Christ puts the emphasis on God. That their deeds done in the light of God's truths have been accomplished in the power of God, God at work in them..

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[Dartman]

Of course, God commands all men every to repent and believe in Christ.
But the only ones that do are those He has foreknown as His own people.
And the reason they believe is The Holy Spirit teaches them, because they are regenerated and the evil old heart has been replaced. You can not enter the kingdom of God without first being regenerated, born again, then you will respond to the Holy Spirit because you are a spiritually alive person no longer spiritually dead. Plenty of Jews in Christ's time resisted the gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit and all them that resist Him persisting in unbelief God will destroy.

You seem to be confused regarding the individual's responsibility to BELIEVE what they hear. God does NOT force ANYONE to believe, He responds to ACTION;
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

God has already given life, given His words, given His son .... it is now the responsibility of the individual to SEEK;

Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

God is NOT a puppeteer! God has promised to RESPOND to those that RESPOND to Him;

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded

Belief is an act. Belief is a choice. Belief is the responsibility of the individual. God is the source of the gospel, but the individual must CHOOSE to accept His truth.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[ClementofA]

Hoo boy!

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Universalists have been divided re whether or not the passage (v.12-17) supports the salvation of all human beings. I've not considered it supportive, but recently was taking another look at it. Jason Pratt says:

"I agree that St. Paul has Christian workers immediately in view, but he also says in verse 11 that no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the foundation of all things, and whenever we sin we are abusing His grace by building that which is worthless upon His foundation. That isn't only true about Christians, that's true about anyone."

Re: Misused Proof Texts For Universalism?

Tom Talbott writes the foreward to the book "Christ Triumphant: Universalism Asserted as the Hope of the Gospel on the Authority of Reason, the Fathers and Holy Scripture", By Thomas Allin. On pages p. xl and xli he addresses our passage:

Christ Triumphant

The Inescapable Love of God: Second Edition By Thomas Talbott [p.97-8 re 1 cor 3]:

The Inescapable Love of God

3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

If Paul did not intend verse 12 to refer to "any man", why did he say "any man" instead of saying "any saint", "any Christian", "any church member", "any saved person", "any of us", "any of His body", or "any believer", etc?

In Scripture what does "silver" signify? Redemption? In relation to works in 1 Cor.3:12-15 could the reference to silver suggest the "work of faith" (1 Thess.1:3) in Christ's redemption?

What do wood, hay & stubble indicate? The works of the flesh (Gal.5:19-21)?

Additional thoughts re "works":

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Eph.2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:20b-26 faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In light of those 3 passages of Scripture, would those whose works are "wood, hay & stubble" (1 Cor.3:12-15) necessarily be Christians?

Jesus distinguished the righteous from the unrighteous based on works in Matthew 25.

One might object re 1 Cor 3 supporting universalism, saying, " "No man,""any man,""every man" in this passage only refers to "labourers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building."who has built on the foundation of Jesus Christ," vss. 9, 11-12, not all mankind."

Yet Paul said "every man", not "every saint", not "every believer", not "every church member", not "every Christian", not "everyone of us", and not "every labourer", etc.

Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble".

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jn.1:9

He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians.

But, it is objected "This passage says nothing about anyone going through a fire. It says "fire shall try every man's work" and "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss" And it does not refer to the work all mankind but only the work of the "laborers together with God" etc. in vss. 11-12."

Jesus said: "Everyone will be salted with fire." (Mark 9:49)

But, it is objected again, "Also it does not say that man is saved by fire but "yet so as by fire"

Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
the fire shall try every man's work v.13
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

How will "every man's" works be "revealed by fire" (v.13)?
How will "every man's" works be tried by fire (v.13)?
How will their works be "burned" (v 15)?
How will they "suffer" loss (v.15)?

For our God is a consuming fire. (Heb.10:29)

A final objection (1 Cor.3:16-17),

(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

"These two verses certainly don't say that all mankind will be saved. it says, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy" "

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Can a believer lose his salvation?

Those 2 verses don't deny Jesus can & will save the world.
Those 2 verses don't deny Jesus has the love & power to save all humanity.
Those 2 verses don't deny Jesus seeks the lost till He finds them.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Der Alte]

..."I agree that St. Paul has Christian workers immediately in view, but he also says in verse 11 that no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the foundation of all things, and whenever we sin we are abusing His grace by building that which is worthless upon His foundation. That isn't only true about Christians, that's true about anyone."...

Nonsense! This post is nothing more than someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I have never read anything so ridiculous. Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Does this sound like Jesus is going to save them anyway? Where does this scripture change to say "I now know you, welcome to my kingdom?" Jesus did not say "I do not know you." He said "I never knew you." Jesus is outside of time, never means never. Here is 1 Cor 3:9-17 again. Is Paul addressing the entire world or is he addressing only "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building" vs. 9, as he says? Lost sinners are not "laborers together with God etc"

1 Corinthians 3:9-17.
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man [see vs. 9] take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man [see vs. 9] lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man [see vs. 9] build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's [see vs. 9] work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's [see vs. 9] work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's [see vs. 9] work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye [see vs. 9] not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man [see vs. 9] defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

The spirit of God does not dwell in sinners, v.16! Paul does not identify one group, in vs. 9, return to addressing that group vs. 16 and all the vss, in between he is talking about all of mankind. So as I said "any man,""every man,""no man" does not refer to all of mankind but the audience Paul was addressing the Christians identified in vs. "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building."
.....Of course Universalists have a handful of proof texts which when attached to 1 Cor 3;9-17 seem to support their fallacious Uni argument. But what did the formerly pagan Christians at Corinth, Paul was addressing this letter to, understand? They did not have the books of James, Ephesians, Matthew, Thessalonians or the writings of Tom Talbott or Thomas Allin, referenced above, to help give them a Universalist POV. All they had was the text in front of them and its plainest meaning. See above.
.....One can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by yanking random verses out-of-context jamming them all together as if they formed a continuous narrative. I can even prove that the Bible says "There is no God!" Psalm 14 and 53.

 

[Kenny'sID]

1. God doesn't want all men to be saved.
2. God can't do what he wants to do.

So you really think those questions will psych us out, and steer us into considering Universalism is anything but the bunk that it is?

Why do you feel you have to be so tricky?

Why not? Bluntly..It's far from Biblical, and just another of many Happy Place doctrines that sooth some right into the Gates of Hell.

"Let's all happily skip our way through life, and do as we want because we all end up in heaven anyway"

Blah.

 

[mkgal1]

Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble".

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jn.1:9

He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians.

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

....and "flesh" is within the language of Paul---not "bodily" flesh....but "carnal behavior" that runs in opposition to God's righteousness (fruit of the Spirit).

ETA: Paul described "flesh" in Gal 5:

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hate, fighting, obsession, losing your temper, competitive opposition, conflict, selfishness, group rivalry,21 jealousy, drunkenness, partying, and other things like that."
​

 

[mkgal1]

Nonsense! This post is nothing more than someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I have never read anything so ridiculous

Can you write responses without these ad hominem rants? It doesn't bolster your argument---so why do that?

 

[mkgal1]

Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."

"Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things".....as defined by WHO, though? Not only WHO....but by WHAT (because it sounds as if you're getting close to defining faith by works....but that's not going to work with this passage).

In going back to the OP...and thinking of God as the "waiting Father"......weren't both of those sons "building on the foundation" their Father had laid (his love.....his desire for relationship with them.....his desire for their goodness--that's the foundation laid, as I see it)? Paul writes:

So, whether someone builds on top of the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or hay, 13 each one’s work will be clearly shown. (v 12)

If a person's "work" is described as "wood, grass, and hay" and it all goes up in flames (but their soul is saved)....who are these people, then? What allowed them to be in the group of "saved" that disqualifies them from your label of "nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things". With that reasoning....there's a sort of line between "doing sinful things" and living in a way that produces "empty behavior" that means nothing eternally. I thought James said that "faith without works is dead". So.....which is correct? Can a person be a "believer".....one that has faith.....but NOT produce eternally rewarding behavior?

To me.....it seems that, indeed, EVERYONE is in this group (not just "believers that aren't doing all the sinful things").

 

[Kenny'sID]

(because it sounds as if you're getting close to defining faith by works....but that's not going to work with this passage).

Allow me to get even closer...Faith without works is dead.

 

[ClementofA]

Nonsense! This post is nothing more than someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I have never read anything so ridiculous. Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."

Let's chill out & smell the coffee.

Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble".

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jn.1:9

He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians.

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Does this sound like Jesus is going to save them anyway?

Yes, in context it does, in fact, say Jesus is going to save them anyway:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Where does this scripture change to say "

I now know you, welcome to my kingdom?" Jesus did not say "I do not know you." He said "I never knew you." Jesus is outside of time, never means never.

He didn't say, I'll never know you or save you. Compare Mt.1:21 & 2:6 above.

Jesus was outside of time when He spoke that? Please provide scripture supporting that claim. And anywhere where anything is ever said to be, quote, "outside of time".

Here is 1 Cor 3:9-17 again. Is Paul addressing the entire world or is he addressing only "

laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building" vs. 9, as he says? Lost sinners are not "laborers together with God etc"

1 Corinthians 3:9-17.
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man [see vs. 9] take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man [see vs. 9] lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man [see vs. 9] build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's [see vs. 9] work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's [see vs. 9] work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's [see vs. 9] work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye [see vs. 9] not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man [see vs. 9] defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
​

The spirit of God does not dwell in sinners, v.16! Paul does not identify one group, in vs. 9, return to addressing that group vs. 16 and all the vss, in between he is talking about all of mankind.

God is omnipresent. He can go anywhere He wants to go. In the OT He made animals speak human language to human beings. Jesus is the Light that lightens every man (Jn.1:9). Human beings were made in God's image & likeness. They are temples made by God.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens...
24...[the] Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...25...
he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;... 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God...

.....Of course Universalists have a handful of proof texts which when attached to 1 Cor 3;9-17 seem to support their fallacious Uni argument. But what did the formerly pagan Christians at Corinth, Paul was addressing this letter to, understand? They did not have the books of James, Ephesians, Matthew, Thessalonians or the writings of Tom Talbott or Thomas Allin, referenced above, to help give them a Universalist POV. All they had was the text in front of them and its plainest meaning.

The Corinthians had much more than the text in front of them. They may not have had certain writings, but they had apostles & teachers giving them much of what was contained in the NT in the form of oral teachings. For example, see the reference to Apollos & Peter in 1 Corinthians 1:12.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

Can you write responses without these ad hominem rants? It doesn't bolster your argument---so why do that?

Ad hominem means to address/attack the person. I did not address the person, I addressed what was posted. I specifically said "this post" and "what I read."

 

[mkgal1]

Ad hominem means to address/attack the person. I did not address the person, I addressed what was posted. I specifically said "this post" and "what I read."

That may be a good example of "the law" and "the Spirit". Under the "law"....technically....yes....it was an "allowed" way to express yourself. But.....was it charitable....was it necessary to express it that way?

Does "following after the flesh" make a person a "nonbeliever" or what is the criteria (since you wrote "nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ.")?

 

[Der Alte]

Let's chill out & smell the coffee.
Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble".
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jn.1:9

Same ol' song and and dance take a vs from Joh 1, one vs. from 1 Cor 1, one vs. from 1 Cor 15, one vs. from Matt 1, one vs. from Matt 2, a few vss. from Act 17 jam them all together out-of-context trying vainly to prop up the false notion that 1 Cor 3:9-17 includes all mankind and the formerly pagan Christians at Corinth would have understood it that way. The flaw in this argument is Paul's writing were written before all the others. The Corinthians could not have had them so they would have understood the passage in its apparent literal meaning as I previously said.
.....Proof text theology a vs. from here a vs. from there and repeat with total disregard for the context.

He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians.

Where did Paul say that Christ "lighteth every man" when he wrote letters to Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonika etc? Where did Paul specifically say that every person in all those pagan cities and countries would be saved no matter what?

Yes, in context it does, in fact, say Jesus is going to save them anyway:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
He didn't say, I'll never know you or save you. Compare Mt.1:21 & 2:6 above.

But about 33 years after His birth Jesus did say "Depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you!"

Jesus was outside of time when He spoke that? Please provide scripture supporting that claim. And anywhere where anything is ever said to be, quote, "outside of time".

In Joh 8:58 Jesus did not use the past tense, "before Abraham I was" Although He was standing literally before the Jews Jesus said "before Abraham was I am." The present tense.

John 8:58
(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 1:1-2
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
John 17:5
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Hebrews 13:8
(8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Colossians 1:17
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

God is omnipresent. He can go anywhere He wants to go. In the OT He made animals speak human language to human beings. Jesus is the Light that lightens every man (Jn.1:9). Human beings were made in God's image & likeness. They are temples made by God.

Where did Paul explain this to all the gentile Christians he wrote to? How would they know all this conjecture without having been told?

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said,

Ye men of Athens...
24...[the] Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...25...
he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;... 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God...

That was Athens not Corinth or any of the other cities Paul wrote to.

The Corinthians had much more than the text in front of them. They may not have had certain writings, but they had apostles & teachers giving them much of what was contained in the NT in the form of oral teachings. For example, see the reference to Apollos & Peter in 1 Corinthians 1:12.

Wild speculation that Corinth or any other city had all the information that you have pulled from several disparate verses.
We must understand the Corinhian and other letters exactly as the original recipients understood them. We cannot assume that they had information from letters which were written years later.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The standard out-of-context uni proof text. The text reads "in Adam" and "In Jesus" It does not say "because of/by Adam" or "because of/by Jesus" All mankind are inherently "in Adam" because we are all literal, physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not inherently in Jesus.

Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:[Matthew 7:23 Luke 13:27]
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
John 5:29
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation​

 

[Der Alte]

That may be a good example of "the law" and "the Spirit". Under the "law"....technically....yes....it was an "allowed" way to express yourself. But.....was it charitable....was it necessary to express it that way?
Does "following after the flesh" make a person a "nonbeliever" or what is the criteria (since you wrote "nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ.")?

I don't make the decision who is/is not a believer or nonbeliever." I do know that 1 Cor 3:9-17 is addressed to the church at Corinth, a specific group "laborers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building." That is exactly how the original recipients would have understood it. They did not have all the out-of-context proof texts, which were written years after Paul's letters, and there is no record of pastors and teachers telling them everyone will be saved no matter what.

 

[mkgal1]

Does this sound like Jesus is going to save them anyway?

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice who Jesus got firm with..... some examples besides this one:

Luke 18:9-14~He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...


Mark 7:20-23~And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

Luke 10:30-37~Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. .

Luke 10:27~And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 9:10-13~And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 15:1-39~Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” ..

Matthew 12~You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. (v 34)But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you."He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

.....can you notice the pattern? As it was mentioned in this thread a long time ago....it's a humble and contrite heart that God desires.

 

[Der Alte]

Notice who Jesus got firm with..... some examples besides this one:

Luke 18:9-14~He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...


Mark 7:20-23~And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

Luke 10:30-37~Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. .

Luke 10:27~And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 9:10-13~And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 15:1-39~Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” ..
Matthew 12~You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. (v 34)But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you."He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."
.....can you notice the pattern? As it was mentioned in this thread a long time ago....it's a humble and contrite heart that God desires.

I can't see how this addresses my Link:[post #1024] which you quoted part of one paragraph from.

 

[mkgal1]

I don't make the decision who is/is not a believer or nonbeliever." I do know that 1 Cor 3:9-17 is addressed to the church at Corinth, a specific group "laborers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building." That is exactly how the original recipients would have understood it. They did not have all the out-of-context proof texts, which were written years after Paul's letters, and there is no record of pastors and teachers telling them everyone will be saved no matter what.

I agree....that letter WAS to a specific group of people (but it also mentioned future events) and is expanding into general terms (from my comprehension and understanding/belief) when he's speaking of foundations and what we build on. Also.....Paul calls them "co-workers in God's service" and this chapter ends with:

"For everything belongs to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed."

....then you have to ask, "what ARE the mysteries that God has revealed"? Do you not notice the grouping together that's done there (and the destruction of hierarchies and fame)?

To me....this passage extends to us--as "co-workers in God's service"--to join with Him in His desire that "all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4). In my view.....THAT is what we're laboring for.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree....that letter WAS to a specific group of people (but it also mentioned future events) and is expanding into general terms (from my comprehension and understanding/belief) when he's speaking of foundations and what we build on. Also.....Paul calls them "co-workers in God's service" and this chapter ends with:
"For everything belongs to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed."
....then you have to ask, "what ARE the mysteries that God has revealed"? Do you not notice the grouping together that's done there (and the destruction of hierarchies and fame)?

To me....this passage extends to us--as "co-workers in God's service"--to join with Him in His desire that "all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4). In my view.....THAT is what we're laboring for.

1 Corinthians 3:17-23
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you [laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building. vs. 9 not all mankind] seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
(19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
(20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
(21) Therefore let no man [see v. 9] glory in men. For all things are yours;
(22) Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
(23) And ye [laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building. vs. 9, not all mankind] are Christ's; and Christ is God's.​

This is what the church at Corinth would have understood and Paul said nothing which would make them think he was really talking about all mankind. If that was Paul's intent he never made it clear. It has only been interpolated into the scripture 2000+/- years later.

 

[mkgal1]

I don't make the decision who is/is not a believer or nonbeliever.

What standard have you set for your own self? What qualifies you--or what gives you security--that you ARE a "believer" (I'm presuming you believe that you can label yourself that way....am I correct)? Suppose someone is reading along--and is concerned that they may fall into the "destroyed" group that you speak of and they need reassurance....you know....some Good News.

I can't see how this addresses my Link:[post #1024] which you quoted part of one paragraph from.

I was just pointing out the group He normally (if not ALL His recorded words) spoke to in that way. How would you categorize that group? A hint: they weren't "Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do".

 

[mkgal1]

(18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you [laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building. vs. 9 not all mankind] seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
(19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
(20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

So......are you saying this letter is ONLY to those that Paul was directly writing to.....those in that specific group in Corinth? The part about "the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" doesn't apply to everyone? Just this group? And Him knowing the thoughts of the wise....and their vanity--that's ONLY those in Corinth at that time?