To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[aiki]

True Science matters quite a bit on the subject of "matter". The universe expands and shrinks or contracts. Matter and Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another.

This isn't what mainstream cosmology indicates. Cosmologists are pretty well agreed that there was a space-time boundary before which matter and energy did not exist. The commonly accepted Big Bang Theory posits a beginning to the universe a finite time ago in the past. The Bible also teaches God pre-existing the material universe He created. If this is so, then matter and energy can and are created. And if they have been created by God, then they can also be destroyed by Him.

 

[claninja]

I just want to say something real quick.

Personally, I find these threads about hell to be a little odd for the Christian and let me explain why before you guys *shoot* (ducking head).

If God is who He says He is. AND if Christ is who He said He is, then we know that God is perfect, righteous and just. PERIOD. DONE.

And our using our own thinking, to try to understand God's thinking, is our placing our own thinking about God and not trusting in faith His rightouesness, justness and perfection of His plan.

God's Word says "My ways are not your ways". I think we need to have faith and let God be God and BELIEVE in His righteousness and holiness.

NOT depending on our own understanding, but having faith in Him, that His ways are perfect and holy.

That is all I will say. I would like you guys to think about this and how much love you could be spending your time on, rather than this topic. IMHO.

/end rant

I absolutely agree with this. I also think that these discussions can be fun and informative, as long as everyone is giving grace to each other. If we can all discuss things like this with a learning and humble heart, topics like this can be enjoyable. However, we are sinners, and often like to get on our high horses often (myself not exempt). We always want to be right. But in the end, it won't really matter which one of us was right, only how wrong we all were and how righteous God was, is, and will be.

 

[aiki]

If God is who He says He is. AND if Christ is who He said He is, then we know that God is perfect, righteous and just. PERIOD. DONE.

Isn't this also true about other things the Bible tells us like ECT? It seems so to me...

And our using our own thinking, to try to understand God's thinking, is our placing our own thinking about God and not trusting in faith His rightouesness, justness and perfection of His plan.

I'm not sure why you see things this way. Why must it be that those who seek to understand God's mind more deeply are not trusting Him? It seems to me that the opposite is true. It is for me, at least.

God's Word says "My ways are not your ways". I think we need to have faith and let God be God and BELIEVE in His righteousness and holiness.

NOT depending on our own understanding, but having faith in Him, that His ways are perfect and holy.

But I can do this - and do - while working to gain a better understanding of God and His ways. I cannot grasp all of who God is and what He is doing and how, but it is lazy thinking, it seems to me, to bother not at all to try to deepen my knowledge of God's will and ways.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Look in Psalms for - till a pit be digged for the wicked.

Also, check Malachi 1 as to how Edom will be called - The border of wickedness. Isaiah 34 tells how that land will be made burning pitch and brimstone.
Wicked people will be in this land - and none can pass through it. as in -nobody is added - and nobody leaves

Revelation tells how all wicked get cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 1:4 reads the "border of wickedness," but is footnoted as "territory."

Isaiah 34:10 reads "...none shall pass through it for ever and ever." That clearly refers to travelers, and nothing is said about anybody being added or leaving.

I think you're reaching a bit.

 

[Monk Brendan]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

The Catholic communion of Churches--(some 23 or so) has never taught that all WILL be saved. On the other hand, we can HOPE for all people to be saved.

 

[PropheticTimes]

I just want to say something real quick.

Personally, I find these threads about hell to be a little odd for the Christian and let me explain why before you guys *shoot* (ducking head).

If God is who He says He is. AND if Christ is who He said He is, then we know that God is perfect, righteous and just. PERIOD. DONE.

And our using our own thinking, to try to understand God's thinking, is our placing our own thinking about God and not trusting in faith His rightouesness, justness and perfection of His plan.

God's Word says "My ways are not your ways". I think we need to have faith and let God be God and BELIEVE in His righteousness and holiness.

NOT depending on our own understanding, but having faith in Him, that His ways are perfect and holy.

That is all I will say. I would like you guys to think about this and how much love you could be spending your time on, rather than this topic. IMHO.

/end rant

I agree, and let me add:

If everyone is saved, there would be no need to tell them about the sacrifice and the magnitude of God becoming man to save them, because they would find out after they die anyway, and the actions people take, good or evil would make no difference in the end. This means that nothing anybody does in this life, has any meaning. If all are saved, regardless of believing and being baptised in the Spirit, then we have a bigger problem than sin; the problem of God having no sense of justice.

Universalism is an antichrist doctrine. If my Savior said "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" then I believe Him. I pray all who believe the heresy of Universalism will have your blindness healed. May the Spirit of God open your eyes.

May God truly bless you.

 

[Der Alte]

I am honestly curious about this, because this is something that has always bothered me when reading Daniel 12. It says that Daniel 12:1-4 will be accomplished at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people; Daniel 12:7. Israel was scattered in 70 AD and the temple was completely destroyed. What are your thoughts on this?

Here is Dan 12:1-4 I read it to say "until the time of the end." as does vs. 5.

Daniel 12:1-4
(1) "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
(2) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
(3) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
(4) But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."​

 

[ToBeLoved]

Isn't this also true about other things the Bible tells us like ECT? It seems so to me...

I've studied hell to some degree and I know it will be bad and that there will be torment for those there. With that said, I'm not going to say that it is fire for eternity. I know satan and his fallen angels will be in the Lake of Fire, that is clear but for me the eternity of non-believers is not as clear, except that it will be torment.

So, saying that, my point is why are Christians so obsessed with what exactly it will be? It's almost like they get some kind of justice or feeling of superiority thinking about the non-believers who will be going there. And there are good feelings associated with us doing something better than others (or with more reward). We all do it, give ourselves a little pat on the back for us making that great choice. So my question is then, what are people getting out it? It's not God who is pushing hell down the throats of His children. We know we are saved and that Christ's promises to us are true and eternal.

So then, what is the point of a bunch of Christians who presummably think they are all saved then discussing the most horrific things, when their God will ultimately decide and their God is ultimately just and not them or their thinking.

So the statement I was putting forth is what are our own motivations for taking part in this kind of thread?

And it could be many reasons, I'll just state a few:

1. People are not secure in God or in Him having saved them for eternity.
2. People believe that God may turn His back on His Own children if they do not 'perform works'.
3. People want to make God into who they want God to be and not who God says He is in His Word.
4. People do not have a strong enough faith to believe that God is who He says He is and will do what He said He is going to do.

So I just want people to think about that and where they might be in that relationship, because I think most people who discuss it fall under # 4.

Reflection into one self is a good thing for us to do. To really examine our own hearts and actions and then reflect.

 

[ToBeLoved]

.

 

[CrystalDragon]

The Catholic communion of Churches--(some 23 or so) has never taught that all WILL be saved. On the other hand, we can HOPE for all people to be saved.

I wonder though, if God desires all to be saved, why is there a hell? He's God, and everything happens according to his will.

 

[claninja]

Here is Dan 12:1-4 I read it to say "until the time of the end." as does vs. 5.

Daniel 12:1-4
(1) "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
(2) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
(3) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
(4) But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."​

And then Daniel asks the angel when these things, which you mentioned above, would occur. The angel states a time,times, and half a time, and that when the holy people are scattered. So i guess th next question is, when was Israel scattered? Or, is this dual prophecy?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm not sure why you see things this way. Why must it be that those who seek to understand God's mind more deeply are not trusting Him? It seems to me that the opposite is true. It is for me, at least.

One reason I think is that we have all grown up with different thoughts about hell from our culture. We have heard everything from if we tell a lie or don't listen once, we are going to hell to that if we do not join denomination X we are going to hell. So I think because of hell being ingrained in our culture because most of the US are Christian in some way, shape or form, I think we cannot just look at God's Word and decide, that we bring all that subconcious thought patterns, into our understanding.

So I think in that way, we are all bias to our experiences and what we have been told and by whom we have been told. If we carry that in and then decide what God's Word has said, then aren't we bringing our own meaning and experience to the table before and as we are reading and understanding what we think God is telling us when we read those scriptures?

 

[Der Alte]

I've studied hell to some degree and I know it will be bad and that there will be torment for those there. With that said, I'm not going to say that it is fire for eternity. I know satan and his fallen angels will be in the Lake of Fire, that is clear but for me the eternity of non-believers is not as clear, except that it will be torment.
So, saying that, my point is why are Christians so obsessed with what exactly it will be? It's almost like they get some kind of justice or feeling of superiority thinking about the non-believers who will be going there. And there are good feelings associated with us doing something better than others (or with more reward). We all do it, give ourselves a little pat on the back for us making that great choice. So my question is then, what are people getting out it? It's not God who is pushing hell down the throats of His children. We know we are saved and that Christ's promises to us are true and eternal. their God is ultimately just and not them or their thinking.
So the statement I was putting forth is what are our own motivations for taking part in this kind of thread?
And it could be many reasons, I'll just state a few:
1. People are not secure in God or in Him having saved them for eternity.
2. People believe that God may turn His back on His Own children if they do not 'perform works'.
3. People want to make God into who they want God to be and not who God says He is in His Word.
4. People do not have a strong enough faith to believe that God is who He says He is and will do what He said He is going to do.
So I just want people to think about that and where they might be in that relationship, because I think most people who discuss it fall under # 4.
Reflection into one self is a good thing for us to do. To really examine our own hearts and actions and then reflect.
So then, what is the point of a bunch of Christians who presummably think they are all saved then discussing the most horrific things, when their God will ultimately decide and

Wrong X 4. Suppose someone who presents him/herself as a Christian witnessing to lost people, saying "There is no hell. There is no eternal punishment God will save everyone no matter what." Will that encourage lost people to repent? Or will it encourage lawlessness since, as some people say, everyone will be saved no matter what?
.....I saw a PSA some time ago a young lady was walking down a train track, a train was approaching in the background. Beside the train tracks was another young later who said, "She is my friend and I want to help her but I don't want to make here mad by telling her that's dangerous." Or something like that. Well we are the ones walking beside the track should we warn people or not?

 

[Der Alte]

And then Daniel asks the angel when these things, which you mentioned above, would occur. The angel states a time,times, and half a time, and that when the holy people are scattered. So i guess th next question is, when was Israel scattered? Or, is this dual prophecy?

Daniel 12:11-12
(11) "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
(12) Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.​

 

[claninja]

Daniel 12:11-12
(11) "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
(12) Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.​

I mean, technically that happened. Mid 66AD Eleazar ceased the daily sacrifices at the temple for the gentiles and Caeser. Josephus reports it is this event that truly sparked the beginning of the Jewish Roman war. Then, 3.5 years later, Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed during the Roman siege.

Josephus also records:
"Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of ; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations;"

 

[ToBeLoved]

Wrong X 4. Suppose someone who presents him/herself as a Christian witnessing to lost people, saying "There is no hell. There is no eternal punishment God will save everyone no matter what." Will that encourage lost people to repent? Or will it encourage lawlessness since, as some people say, everyone will be saved no matter what?
.....I saw a PSA some time ago a young lady was walking down a train track, a train was approaching in the background. Beside the train tracks was another young later who said, "She is my friend and I want to help her but I don't want to make here mad by telling her that's dangerous." Or something like that. Well we are the ones walking beside the track should we warn people or not?

The problem is that is not what I said at all. That is what you have said, that I have said.

 

[AlexDTX]

I am currently nose picking. Parables are actual events Jesus was aware of.
You many not be aware of these parable actual events, but Jesus was better
informed than most.

Oh yes, and you know everything Jesus knew.

 

[Der Alte]

The problem is that is not what I said at all. That is what you have said, that I have said.

I did not say you said anything. You enumerated 4 points why you think Christians participate in threads like this, I gave an explanation why those 4 points are wrong.

 

[Rajni]

I wonder though, if God desires all to be saved, why is there a hell? He's God, and everything happens according to his will.

The usual explanation is along the lines that that hell wasn't originally created for humans, but only for the devil and his angels. However, God knows the end from the beginning, so even if hell's purpose was initially just for fallen angels, He had to have foreseen that humans might wind up there, too.

I agree that God desires that all be saved. And it's reassuring to know it's also written that He will do all His desire (Isaiah 46:10).


-

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm