Universalism...why not?

[Rajni]

...first, to answer this, one must assume that ALL souls do wish to be saved. While I'd like to think everyone would, I've encountered plenty of people who have told me that whatever the Biblical idea of happiness is....it's is something they would never want to have. I'd call this the Aesthetic Problem. That is, some people just don't have a taste for a biblical eternal happiness....and they know they never will.

Or, they just don't feel attracted to the concept of biblical happiness that has been presented to them by others. There's a difference between rejecting God directly and rejecting other peoples' concepts thereof. And I'm sure God, knowing their hearts, can tell the difference.

As for God waiting for us to wish to be saved first before saving us, I've noticed that when it comes to being saved through Christ, people are all about the "free will" and insist it must be our choice to be saved. But where was our free choice in being condemned through Adam? Why does it seem that forcing damnation on mankind through Adam is okay, but forcing salvation on all mankind through Christ isn't?

Again, my personal suspicion is that some of those pushing for a hell have a list of folks with whom they really don't want to have to spend eternity in heaven.

 

[The Times]

Please find the word "hell" for me in the original Greek so that I may believe in this also. I simply cannot find it in all my searchings of the Scriptures. But perhaps I am missing something.

The Ancient Hebrew and the Aramaic language that Jesus also spoke in used the term Gehenna.

But the word hell in the Old English usage of the implied term to the meaning of Gehenna, doesn't really do it justice in describing what Gehenna is.

First of all, here is a quick overview of where the word Gehenna is derived from.....

Gehenna from the Hebrew Gehinnom, is a small valley in Jerusalem and the Jewish and Christian analogue of hell. The terms are derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom. The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.

In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the Kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire. Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2-6).

In Jewish Rabbinic literature, and Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Shoel/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible, that uses old English, usually translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

This is where the confusion is brought in, when Hebrew and Aramaic are translated into old Anglo-Saxon English. The three issues are....

The same word HELL in the Old Anglo-Saxon English language is used for both terms Gehenna and Shoel/Hades, that have totally different meanings and applications.

The application of the term Gehenna used by the ancient Jews was the destination place for the accursed wicked.

The place Gehenna is an accursed destination whereas Shoel/Hades/Grave is NOT.

Therefore Gehenna as compared to Shoel/Hades have different meanings and different applications.

Ok, let us continue......

In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as "Valley of Hinnom", "Valley of the son of Hinnom" or "Valley of the children of Hinnom."

So in every place where you see that destination place mentioned, you have the meaning of the word Gehenna being applied as the accursed destination for the wicked.

There leaves no doubt that both the Old Testament Prophets, the New Testament Apostles and also Jesus preached of a destination place for the accursed wicked, who would initially go to Shoel, meaning the grave of the dead, before arriving at their final destination Gehannah.

You asked for the versus, well here they are.....

Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:29-30
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 13:38-42
and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. read more.

Matthew 13:49-50
"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 23:33
"serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Matthew 25:28-30
'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Mark 9:45
"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

Mark 9:47
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Luke 16:23-24
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Luke 16:26
'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

All in all there are five New Testament authors who use the term Gehenna and apply it to the accursed destination place for the wicked.

 

[surrender1]

Please find the word "hell" for me in the original Greek so that I may believe in this also. I simply cannot find it in all my searchings of the Scriptures. But perhaps I am missing something.

Yep. I'll be waiting for that as well.

 

[Light of the East]

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I have no qualms with the idea of the wicked having a place where they are assigned to go for their wickedness. Certainly our understanding of justice demands that they do not get off scot-free. As we understand justice, and as the Scriptures seem to indicate by Christ's words "...and you shall not be released until you pay the last farthing," there is a proper punishment for those things which we have chosen to do in defiance of God's laws.

What I do question (and I am not settled on this yet, still questioning) is whether this justice is served by a sentence that is never-ending. That is, not proportional to the sins committed. And I am also wondering (and I admit, leaning towards) that punishment being not only of justice, but of a restorative nature. St. Isaac the Syrian thought so. So did a number of Early Fathers in the Church. The idea of God simply "getting even," so to speak, really took off with the writings of Augustine.

I do have on other question in regards to the post you made to me. Scripture speaks of a place called Gehenna, but inasmuch as Scripture teaches us that there is nowhere in all the created universe that God is not, would you agree that perhaps this is not so much a place (as a distinct setting outside of where God is) as a condition? Orthodox writers I have read have described the suffering of the wicked as the being of a person in the very presence of the fiery love of God - and that love being intolerable for them while at the same time being a blessing for those who have, in their ascetic strivings of theosis, come to be like Christ and follow holiness.

Could it be that such a concept was too hard for those to whom Christ spoke and Paul address to follow, and therefore they used Gehenna as a more understandable metaphor for this misery?

Thank you for your response. Well done.

 

[Hillsage]

This is a very key point--and according to the "this lifetime only" camp God would be losing MOST.

Which, if the "this lifetime camp" doctrine was true, it would simply prove that the God of the universe was too dumb to create more than a pittance of humans capable of making such a monumental choice for Him, as well as such a huge choice against themselves.

And then we also have to deal with God's very own pittance of true love, mercy or compassion too. Because, in His omniscient power 'to know the future beforehand', He still didn't really care enough that most of the billions would still opt for orthodoxy's 'God of the eternal Auschwitz doctrine' over that of serving Him. A position I know well, because that's where I was when He 'called, drew, predestined and ordained for me to believe' in this age, and not in "the ages to come".

 

[Light of the East]

It's not about us "waiting and seeing"---it's more that we have greater hope that "all will be well" (as Julian of Norwich wrote) and that God WILL accomplish His desires in due time.

That draws me closer to Him (and, I'm presuming, that's how most feel that advocate for this belief). It also gives me a greater sense of peace when confronted with horribly evil things people do. I can truly leave it in God's hands.....(once I know innocent people aren't being harmed by these people). It also seems to make a lot of Scripture make a lot more sense than it did before---for instance:

...prior to coming to this belief, I didn't quite know what to do with this verse. Now it's much fuller.....much more powerful.....more hopeful.

I had the same experience when I first really grasped the idea of God's scourging in the next life as being redemptive rather than retributive. For about two weeks, I experienced a real joy that I had never known before, I guess partly because I have children who are - at least in the terms the hellists would use - going to hell forever (if that is true) and it is a deep sorrow to my heart. It is especially hard for me because their lack of interest in Christ is most certainly and directly my fault inasmuch as I followed for 25 years some of the nastiest and most unloving Fundamentalist bilge you can find on this planet (i.e. a real devotee of Chick tracts, for instance. Couldn't get enough of their hatred for anything not Fundamentalist!)

The idea that first of all the Early Fathers taught this for almost 500 years before Augustine began to derail it certainly gives it a strong foundation. It gives the heart a great hope, and paints a picture of a Father who is so greatly loving that how could one not respond in love to Him? I wonder if that picture of the Father, rather than of the grouchy old man, all-powerful and ready to torment everyone, would do wonders for drawing people to Christ? How would people understand God differently if our Christian faith really portrayed Him as love - i.e., the very love seen in Christ as it says in the Scriptures that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself."

Of course, that joy didn't last, partly because "the Church" teaches that there is an eternal hell and a number of people, upon finding out my interest in Patristic Universalism, condemned me to it, along with dire warnings that "the Church is the 'pillar and ground of truth' so therefore, if the Church teaches it, it MUST be true.

Which right now is making me wonder just where the Church is because the more I study, the more I am finding out that the Roman Church (this is "the Church" to which I refer) has been somewhat shady in their dealing with the Scriptures.

But that is another story for another time......

 

[surrender1]

John the Baptist’s preaching consisted of announcements of an *imminent* (“who warned you to flee from the wrath to come” Lk. 3:7 and “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees” Mt. 3:10, Lk. 3:9) fiery judgment (cf. Mt. 3:12 “unquenchable fire”) on Israel if she didn’t repent. That *imminent* fire was the fire that came upon Jerusalem in AD 70. See also Luke 12:56 where Jesus warns of the imminent crisis to come upon that generation.

*Gehenna* is commonly translated “hell.” Gehenna is derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. “This was a valley near Jerusalem, and appears to have held this name perhaps as far back as the time of Joshua. This valley was used by the more idolatrous kings of Judah as a place where they would sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. It may also have been the location where, in a single night, the Messenger of Yahweh killed a massive number of Assyrians from the army of Sennacherib. Going from there, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter ('they shall go out' implies exiting Jerusalem into the valley), where dead bodies are devoured by unquenchable fire (i.e. fire that does not stop burning until it has completely consumed everything in its path) and undying worms (i.e. the maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses). In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter of Isaiah, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the 'second death'. Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. The Valley of Hinnom is only ever used by Jesus (with a single, extraneous usage by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews. He uses it especially when warning them about sinning unrepentantly. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). According to Jesus, God is able to destroy both body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom.” (“The History of Hell” by Mark Edward). See Joshua 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and 2 Chron. 33:6. I’d like to emphasize Luke 12:5 where it states that after God has killed the wicked ones, He has authority to cast the wicked dead into “hell” (actually, Gehenna), which is why it is called the “second death”—the dead body goes through a second death in the unquenchable fire that devours the dead body until it has been completely consumed.

So to the Jews, the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna) came to mean a place of burning and fiery judgment. Josephus indicates that that very same valley was heaped with dead bodies of the Jews following the Roman siege of Jerusalem AD 70.

There are twelve passages with the use of *Gehenna*. The first occurrence of the word *Gehenna* is in Mt. 5:21-22 in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus warns, “…and whosoever shall say, ‘Thou fool’ shall be in danger of the hell of fire.” When Jesus’ audience heard his use of this word, what came to mind was the Valley of Hinnom, the place of burning and fiery judgment where Yahweh had slaughtered the wicked Assyrians, where Isaiah said the dead bodies of the wicked are devoured by unquenchable fire and undying worms, where the dead bodies of the wicked undergo the “second death.” The other nine passages where Jesus uses the word *Gehenna* are found in Mt. 5:29-30, 10:28, 18:9, Mk. 9:43-45, 23:15, and Lk. 12:4-5. In all, Jesus is speaking to and warning the unrepentant Jews of his generation of what is to come if they do not repent and believe his words.

The eleventh occurrence is in Mt. 23:33 and just three verses later Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.” Again, this speaks to the imminency of the judgment to come (which included the idea of being thrown into “hell” [actually, Gehenna] upon their death & experiencing the “second death”) upon that generation if they did not repent.

The twelfth and last time the word *Gehenna* is used is found in James 3:6. It’s interesting to note that James uses the word in a very similar context as the first time the word was used: misuse of the tongue. Jesus condemns one who curses another with the tongue and James condemns misuse of the tongue: “…out of the same mouth cometh forth blessing and cursing.”

As previously mentioned, the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is only ever used by Jesus (with the one exception by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment, and the nation to which Jesus spoke was about to endure a fiery judgment in their lifetime (i.e. generation). Even in James when he uses the word, he warns of the coming slaughter (Jas. 5:5), the coming of the Lord (Jas. 5:8), and that the judge stands before the door (Jas. 5:9). Jesus was “standing at the door”! Divine judgment was about to come upon these very people, this nation. And the warning of being "cast into the fires of Gehanna" was used with these people specifically because they knew exactly what Jesus meant by it: national judgment is coming.

 

[Light of the East]

Which, if the "this lifetime camp" doctrine was true, it would simply prove that the God of the universe was too dumb to create more than a pittance of humans capable of making such a monumental choice for Him, as well as such a huge choice against themselves.

Or worse than that, uncaring that, according to accepted theological teaching, the greatest majority of mankind would wind up in a state of screaming agony.

And then we also have to deal with God's very own pittance of true love, mercy or compassion too. Because, in His omniscient power 'to know the future beforehand', He still didn't really care enough that most of the billions would still opt for orthodoxy's 'God of the eternal Auschwitz doctrine' over that of serving Him. A position I know well, because that's where I was when He 'called, drew, predestined and ordained for me to believe' in this age, and not in "the ages to come".

Indeed. Which brings up the question of whether we have somehow lowered God to meet our understanding of what love is. Seeing how little forgiveness there is in the world when people sin against us, I would say this is a distinct possibility. In other words, we have, in a sense, created an idol and worship it.

One wonders at the mindset of the Roman Church that could make the statement "All mankind not subject to the Holy Father of Rome are destined for eternal perdition" and treat it as if it is the mouth of God Himself speaking (which many Latin Traddies do yet today about that statement) and yet there were continents with millions (billions?) of souls who hadn't the slightest idea of Jesus the Christ.

That is a very troubling picture of a Father who is described as love.

 

[Light of the East]

Which, if the "this lifetime camp" doctrine was true, it would simply prove that the God of the universe was too dumb to create more than a pittance of humans capable of making such a monumental choice for Him, as well as such a huge choice against themselves.

And then we also have to deal with God's very own pittance of true love, mercy or compassion too. Because, in His omniscient power 'to know the future beforehand', He still didn't really care enough that most of the billions would still opt for orthodoxy's 'God of the eternal Auschwitz doctrine' over that of serving Him. A position I know well, because that's where I was when He 'called, drew, predestined and ordained for me to believe' in this age, and not in "the ages to come".

There is something else troubling about this lifetime camp. If true, it shows a God who is unconcerned about the welfare of souls since He has done NOTHING to stop the proliferation of false doctrines and temptations from the devil.

Hillsage, do me a favor and read this and get back to me on it.

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[The Times]

And you seem, along with many other hellists such as Calvinists, to take an unholy delight in mentioning this.

If you are so all-fired sure that everyone except a rare few "elect of God" are going to eternal burning, how many people have you told in the last week that they need to repent? How many have you warned that they are in danger of eternal fire?

That would be the loving thing to do, and certainly Christ-like

IF

what you say is true.

But in reading the words of Christ, I don't even see Him warning people of eternal fire. I see Him warning the Jews to whom He was sent ("I was sent to the House of Israel") to repent lest judgment fall upon them. This warning gets very intense in Matthew 23 and 24 as He absolutely excoriates the Pharisees and tells them that their house is left in desolation. He goes on to describe in detail in Matthew 24 how this will take place and how the Temple will be destroyed.

But you go ahead and show me where Jesus mentioned either "hell" or "eternal punishment." I could be missing something somewhere.

As a sincere reply to the many accusation against me, I shall endeavour to answer all the above, though I would like you to....kindly take off your rose coloured glasses and see what Jesus sees when he looks at the current depravity of the world and the spiralling decay that this world is heading towards and please don't tell me that these events happened historically, because never before in history have we been forced into an autonomous law society that has an outward form of godliness, but it denies the very authority of Jesus Christ altogether and aims at serving the creature and embracing the sins of the world.

This 21 st century Autonomous law society, is a society of people who raise their fist up towards God and say, you will accept us one way or another and you will accept us the way we are and our lifestyles, you'd better or else we will accuse you as a hateful and unloving God.

Can a society portray an outward loving facade, yet inwardly be embellishing a hideous hatred towards God and his Christ?

I believe that anything is possible and certainly as Paul would say....

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

You accused me of having an unholy delight in mentioning Gehenna, the destination place for the accursed wicked.

Yet in these days it is common practice to call good as evil and evil as good. When I preach about a place of torment, I do so to inform people, so that they have a choice to make and if I didn't do this, amidst all the Universalist deception, they would be none the wiser, to think that continuing in their sinful lifestyles would not in any way affect their salvation. Certainly scripture calls such people like me, watchmen and those given responsibility to fore warn others to be vigilent and watchful in faith for you do not know when your Lord comes, to either award you your crown of righteousness or to separate you from him forever. If I was unloving and wanted malice for people, I would keep the warning secret to myself and would spout out the lies of Universalism, so that the rest are none the wiser.

I mean, Universalism breeds ignorance to the impending demise of the soul in Gehenna. This example given by Jesus eloquentally illustrates this ignorance within those who are perishing.....


11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

You asked me how many people have I told in the last week that they need to repent? How many have I warned that they are in danger of eternal fire?

If we include this forum, my family and friends and significant others, then I would humanly inform all, that God gives me opportunity to warn others, inclusive of myself to repent for the time is at hand. Who is counting anyway, I will do what is humanly possible, even if I inform one person a week, or a month, or a year. Numbers don't count, what counts is the heart to love people enough to see their errors and to inform them of the teachings of Jesus Christ and to make straight and narrow their path, or else they will face consequences. If there is consequences in this life as a result of our choices, then most certainly there are consequences in the afterlife as a result of our choices being made in the here and now, within this earthly life.

You said IF

what you say is true.

But in reading the words of Christ, I don't even see Him warning people of eternal fire. I see Him warning the Jews to whom He was sent

Yes you do see it and I have gone at great lengths to provide you with a post that is convincing to even the layman.....

Universalism...why not?

But you go ahead and show me where Jesus mentioned either "hell" or "eternal punishment." I could be missing something somewhere.

Universalism...why not?

 

[Rajni]

Why are the Church Fathers not to be trusted?

It's interesting how any argumentation against what the early church fathers had to say, on any other topic, would likely be discouraged, but when it comes to what they had to say in favor of apocatastasis, suddenly they can't be trusted.

 

[The Times]

Which exactly where HELL along with the last enemy DEATH is going to end up. So if hell is gone and death is destroyed???? Sulphur has never been used to torture, only to preserve or purify. Indeed the very word for "theion/sulfur" in the Greek etymologically comes from "theios/Godlike", which comes from the Greek root "theos/supreme deity". And that FIRE that's scares the pants off most orthodox pew warmers is the Greek word Pur. Guess what english word comes from that? PURE. So mix the Pur fire with supreme deity" and guess what you have.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Now, all of a sudden, that lake of fire takes on the same purpose of the FIRE all Christians get to experience. "He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and FIRE." "Everyone with be salted with FIRE." "He will be saved yet as though by FIRE." And all that FIRE, is the same Greek word Pur from which Purgative & Purification comes from, but not the word Punitive eternal purposeless torture.

Your English imposition on a Jewish text is terrible, if I may say so.

I have shown in previous posts that the Anglo Saxon old English incorrectly used hell for both Gahenna and Shoel/grave and your use of the term fire is no different in its incorrect application. You simply don't get it and never will my friend.
Your lost in your own whimsical translation and will not snap out of the delusion of your personal itemised terms within your private interpretation.

 

[Rajni]

Salvation is entirely from God, but damnation is entirely our fault.

Yeah that doesn't really make much sense to me.

Why not teach that God is 100% successful at bringing His own during their lifetime?

Because I don't subscribe to Christian Partialism. All who died in Adam are made alive again in Christ. Now, if there is a remnant out there who haven't died in Adam, that's a whole 'nother thing. But according to 1 Corinthians 15:22, the same all that died in Adam will be made alive again in Christ.

They attract the same crowd, who claim diplomatic immunity when it comes to the commonwealth of heavenly Israel.

To the degree that I can make out just exactly what's being said here, no, they don't necessarily attract the same crowd. They're two different things.

 

[The Times]

When the anglo saxon old english language term fire is used in conjunction with Spirit it has a salting or sanctification application within the Jewish context of culture.

When the anglo saxon old english language term fire is used in conjunction with brimstone/sulfur/death/torment it has an eternal judgement application within the Jewish context of culture.

So the fires kindled with brimstone are a judgement context, that are not to be used in conjunction with the fires of purification or sanctification of the Spirit.

All terms need to be understood within the Jewish context of culture and context of situation. Private interpretation through our modern world view is rendered mute.

All I see is people fusing the terms fire of judgement and fire of purification as one term, no different to fusing Gahenna with Shoel because they use the same anglo saxon term hell.

An error in exegesis is an error in exegesis.

 

[The Times]

John the Baptist’s preaching consisted of announcements of an *imminent* (“who warned you to flee from the wrath to come” Lk. 3:7 and “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees” Mt. 3:10, Lk. 3:9) fiery judgment (cf. Mt. 3:12 “unquenchable fire”) on Israel if she didn’t repent. That *imminent* fire was the fire that came upon Jerusalem in AD 70. See also Luke 12:56 where Jesus warns of the imminent crisis to come upon that generation.

*Gehenna* is commonly translated “hell.” Gehenna is derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. “This was a valley near Jerusalem, and appears to have held this name perhaps as far back as the time of Joshua. This valley was used by the more idolatrous kings of Judah as a place where they would sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. It may also have been the location where, in a single night, the Messenger of Yahweh killed a massive number of Assyrians from the army of Sennacherib. Going from there, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter ('they shall go out' implies exiting Jerusalem into the valley), where dead bodies are devoured by unquenchable fire (i.e. fire that does not stop burning until it has completely consumed everything in its path) and undying worms (i.e. the maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses). In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter of Isaiah, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the 'second death'. Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. The Valley of Hinnom is only ever used by Jesus (with a single, extraneous usage by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews. He uses it especially when warning them about sinning unrepentantly. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). According to Jesus, God is able to destroy both body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom.” (“The History of Hell” by Mark Edward). See Joshua 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and 2 Chron. 33:6. I’d like to emphasize Luke 12:5 where it states that after God has killed the wicked ones, He has authority to cast the wicked dead into “hell” (actually, Gehenna), which is why it is called the “second death”—the dead body goes through a second death in the unquenchable fire that devours the dead body until it has been completely consumed.

So to the Jews, the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna) came to mean a place of burning and fiery judgment. Josephus indicates that that very same valley was heaped with dead bodies of the Jews following the Roman siege of Jerusalem AD 70.

There are twelve passages with the use of *Gehenna*. The first occurrence of the word *Gehenna* is in Mt. 5:21-22 in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus warns, “…and whosoever shall say, ‘Thou fool’ shall be in danger of the hell of fire.” When Jesus’ audience heard his use of this word, what came to mind was the Valley of Hinnom, the place of burning and fiery judgment where Yahweh had slaughtered the wicked Assyrians, where Isaiah said the dead bodies of the wicked are devoured by unquenchable fire and undying worms, where the dead bodies of the wicked undergo the “second death.” The other nine passages where Jesus uses the word *Gehenna* are found in Mt. 5:29-30, 10:28, 18:9, Mk. 9:43-45, 23:15, and Lk. 12:4-5. In all, Jesus is speaking to and warning the unrepentant Jews of his generation of what is to come if they do not repent and believe his words.

The eleventh occurrence is in Mt. 23:33 and just three verses later Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.” Again, this speaks to the imminency of the judgment to come (which included the idea of being thrown into “hell” [actually, Gehenna] upon their death & experiencing the “second death”) upon that generation if they did not repent.

The twelfth and last time the word *Gehenna* is used is found in James 3:6. It’s interesting to note that James uses the word in a very similar context as the first time the word was used: misuse of the tongue. Jesus condemns one who curses another with the tongue and James condemns misuse of the tongue: “…out of the same mouth cometh forth blessing and cursing.”

As previously mentioned, the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is only ever used by Jesus (with the one exception by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment, and the nation to which Jesus spoke was about to endure a fiery judgment in their lifetime (i.e. generation). Even in James when he uses the word, he warns of the coming slaughter (Jas. 5:5), the coming of the Lord (Jas. 5:8), and that the judge stands before the door (Jas. 5:9). Jesus was “standing at the door”! Divine judgment was about to come upon these very people, this nation. And the warning of being "cast into the fires of Gehanna" was used with these people specifically because they knew exactly what Jesus meant by it: national judgment is coming.

There is a physical application that is projected to the spiritual realm. The parallels are self evident, but you keep on fusing the two together as if they are one application.

There are two applications, the physical and the spiritual. Both the physical and the spiritual are manifesting realities, yet the temporal application is ending in application, yet the spiritual are never ending and eternal in application.

The physical fires of Sodom and Gomorrah did physically end, yet the spiritual fires that consume the souls of the wicked cities are never ending and eternal.

Man can kill the body, which has a physical application, that is finite and temporal as a result, yet God can kill the soul, which has a spiritual application after the context of physical death, that is continuing and permanent as a result.

7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

Notice Jude clearly emphaises the spiritual application, after the physical application is a foregone conclusion. He speaks of them in the present tense as those who continue to suffer from a spiritual application, well after their bodies were killed.

Fear not that man can kill the body, is a physical application, but fear God who can kill body and soul, meaning God can kill through physical application leading to the spiritual application, which is eternal in result.

Cleverly the author deliberately wrote God can kill physically the body and the soul spiritually, after the body has been long gone.

 

[The Times]

Obviously it makes no sense for God killing your soul while your body is still not killed, because why would that be the greatest fear for people, especially for a rebellious generation that lives after the flesh, who care not for matters of the spirit nor are they detered, as they won't even consider it as an imminent threat to them. To a fleshy the physical body is the ultimate prize to hold onto come hell or high water.

It is clear and concise that the eternal punishing or killing of the soul is after the physical application, that is the killing of the body.

 

[ClementofA]

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

As for those "chosen", chosen for what...to be God's special teensie club of "only ever saved"? It doesn't say that. Consider rather:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." (James 1:18)

"The “elect” were those chosen as followers of Christ being the first fruits in the outworking of this redemption. Thus election had NOTHING to do with ‘eternal destinies’ BUT everything to do with who was called to serve in God’s redemptive programme ON BEHALF OF all else."

Few means few, but all means all...Rom.5:18-19, etc.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yeah that doesn't really make much sense to me.

Look at it this way. A man comes to your neighborhood and is giving out free cars.

He comes to the door and knocks. Anyone that answers the door gets a car.

You don't answer your door.

The next day, many people in the neighborhood have new cars delivered. Many don't.

Then, the ones that don't get new cars, they blame the man who knocked. It's his fault somehow.

They don't understand that it was their own fault for not putting their movie or ball game or whatever, on pause, getting up and going to the door.

 

[The Times]

As for those "chosen", chosen for what...to be God's special teensie club of "only ever saved"? It doesn't say that. Consider rather:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." (James 1:18)

"The “elect” were those chosen as followers of Christ being the first fruits in the outworking of this redemption. Thus election had NOTHING to do with ‘eternal destinies’ BUT everything to do with who was called to serve in God’s redemptive programme ON BEHALF OF all else."

Few means few, but all means all...Rom.5:18-19, etc.

You're deflecting the issue at heart, because Jesus said there are many that be called, but yet only a few chosen by him.

Jesus plainly says on the day of judgment, in the singular he will reject ad send away many who thought that they were chosen.

Even the example of the wedding guest who thought that he was invited will be tossed out, where Jesus will tell them out! Out! Out!

Many are called that MIGHT be chosen by Jesus.

At the end of the day scripture plainly says that many who say Lord Lord will be sorely disappointed and turned away. Parable after parable Jesus would warn people to be faithful even unto death and to hold onto your crown, least others steal it from you, by deceiving you to fall into the sins of the world.

 

[ClementofA]

7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

The "eternal" fire that burnt Sodom went out long ago. It ended. It wasn't "eternal". Neither is the so-called eternal punishment (correction) of unbelievers.


Jude CLV
5 Now I am intending to remind you, you who once are aware of all, that the Lord, when saving the people out of the land of Egypt, secondly destroys those who believe not." 6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."
7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)"

As was shown before, Origen sees "aion-ion/eternal fire"[lit. eon-ian fire] as corrective!
Eon-ian just speaks of duration, whether short or long, according to the subject and context.

"The justice of fire eonian is disciplinary and corrective (cf Jude 7)."

The Lord's destruction of Sodom etc purified the human race alive on earth from wickedness. Thus also will he do with individual sinners hereafter.

***************************************

Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42) T or F

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV) T or F

Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) T or F

Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47) T or F

"Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE." (Heb. 2:9) T or F

"Love NEVER fails." (1 Cor. 13:8) T or F

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37) T or F

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11) (Remember, answer OUT LOUD True or False to each of these statements.)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11) T or F

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22) T or F

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) T or F

The Gospel is "good tidings of great joy will be to ALL people." (Luke 2:10) T or F

Believers in Christ are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13) T or F

God appointed Jesus "heir of ALL THINGS, and through whom He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2) T or F

"No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." (John 6:44) T or F

"As God gave Jesus authority over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as God have Him." (John 17:2) T or F

The Father "has given ALL THINGS into Jesus' hands." (John 13:3) T or F

Jesus "was the true light which gives light to EVERY MAN who come into the world." (John 1:9) (Remember, answer out loud True or False to each of these statements.)

"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN." (Rom. 5:18) T or F

Jesus is "able even to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself." (Phil. 3:21) T or F

Jesus came "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:10, 11) T or F

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) T or F

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